I wouldn't disagree with you, I know several people who do the exact method you described. But personally, when I offer advice I tend to go with the safest method, even if it is a bit overcautious. Pressure on a primer can detonate it if a mistake is made and considering this guy sawed a live round in half I thought I'd give him the safety scissors option.
How to Safely Discharge Primer
- Thread starter MOA_Shooter
- Start date
I wouldn't disagree with you, I know several people who do the exact method you described. But personally, when I offer advice I tend to go with the safest method, even if it is a bit overcautious. Pressure on a primer can detonate it if a mistake is made and considering this guy sawed a live round in half I thought I'd give him the safety scissors option.
Fair enough, but in the extremely unlikely case of the primer going off, nothing bad can happen. Wear eye protection, and keep hands/face away from the die while you're doing it. For one, OK, soak it. For a few dozen (yes, been there), just push them out.
Cutting a live round apart is a bit... out there, as you've indicated.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Well, there have been quite a few comments that opine that it is unsafe to fire a round whose bullet is seated deeply onto the powder column. I have handloaded tens of thousands of loads for handguns over 36 years, so I respectfully disagree. Maximum pressure is realized in a pistol at the point at which the bullet exits the muzzle. The force of the primer exerted on the small powder column and the base of the bullet in all likely hood pushes the bullet into the lead of the barrel before a significant portion of the powder column has ignited. Note that our guns are designed to withstand the high pressure developed by propellant gasses. The suggestion that a round loaded to safe levels, but that an OAL of 1.1" instead of 1.125" is posses a hazard in a quality firearm is not reasonable. At the very worst, you would produce a condition that would begin to show the signs of pressure, but it would not be hazardous. If you contend that such a slight change is hazardous, then I suggest that your load was too hot to begin with and would be hazardous as soon as a cartridge was fired that has slightly less volume due to variations in web thickness, case length, or the thickness of the case body. Should any of the rounds you fire show pressure signs your load is too hot. But a bullet that is seated deeply is free to move as pressure builds, so there is not a loss of volume as there would be with variations of the case dimensions.
Sorry to burst your bubble, (and being blunt) but most of your "ASSUMPTIONS" are wrong.
Wrong. I think you are confusing maximum pressure with maximum velocity.
Handgun cartridges develop max pressure within 1/4 inch of bullet travel with some magnums with slow burning powders developing peak pressure at about 1/2" to 3/4" of travel. Pressure decreases continuously from that point.
Maximum pressure in rifle cartridges happens before the bullet travels about 2 inches. Magnum rifle cases with lots of slow burning powder develop peak pressure at about 2 to 3 inches of travel.
Yes, but WHEN the powder burns this has little to do with the timing of peak pressure.
So when is too much?
So give us an example of how much your noted setback will raise pressure.
Wrong. Peak pressure in a handgun round is generated BEFORE the bullet even touches the rifling. With a set back bullet peak pressure occurs when the bullet has travelled about 1/8" to 1/4".
EDIT:
OK, I was being a bit abrupt, but in reality most people don't know how what happens when they pull the trigger. There is so much poor information and "wives tales" floating around all we are trying to do is to enlighten with FACTS.
The example that you used about pushing back a bullet from 1.125 OAL to 1.10 OAL. I ran a simulation using a 9mm with 125gr FMJ bullet, Titegroup powder and makes IPSC Minor. Pressure was well below SAAMI average max for 9MM.
Pushing the bullet back to 1.10" OAL increases pressure by 5,000 psi.
Pushing the bullet back to 1.05" OAL increases pressure by 19,000 psi
Pushing the bullet back to 1.00" OAL increases pressure by 55,000 psi
SAAMI pressure for 9mm is 35,000 psi.
Going from 1.125" to 1.00" is only 1/8 inch. Yes, 1/8" is very noticeable. This is only one example, and it uses a modest load. Different combinations and slightly heavier loads can boost the pressure MUCH more quickly.
Wrong. I think you are confusing maximum pressure with maximum velocity.
Handgun cartridges develop max pressure within 1/4 inch of bullet travel with some magnums with slow burning powders developing peak pressure at about 1/2" to 3/4" of travel. Pressure decreases continuously from that point.
Maximum pressure in rifle cartridges happens before the bullet travels about 2 inches. Magnum rifle cases with lots of slow burning powder develop peak pressure at about 2 to 3 inches of travel.
Yes, but WHEN the powder burns this has little to do with the timing of peak pressure.
So when is too much?
So give us an example of how much your noted setback will raise pressure.
Wrong. Peak pressure in a handgun round is generated BEFORE the bullet even touches the rifling. With a set back bullet peak pressure occurs when the bullet has travelled about 1/8" to 1/4".
EDIT:
OK, I was being a bit abrupt, but in reality most people don't know how what happens when they pull the trigger. There is so much poor information and "wives tales" floating around all we are trying to do is to enlighten with FACTS.
The example that you used about pushing back a bullet from 1.125 OAL to 1.10 OAL. I ran a simulation using a 9mm with 125gr FMJ bullet, Titegroup powder and makes IPSC Minor. Pressure was well below SAAMI average max for 9MM.
Pushing the bullet back to 1.10" OAL increases pressure by 5,000 psi.
Pushing the bullet back to 1.05" OAL increases pressure by 19,000 psi
Pushing the bullet back to 1.00" OAL increases pressure by 55,000 psi
SAAMI pressure for 9mm is 35,000 psi.
Going from 1.125" to 1.00" is only 1/8 inch. Yes, 1/8" is very noticeable. This is only one example, and it uses a modest load. Different combinations and slightly heavier loads can boost the pressure MUCH more quickly.
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The first statement is just wrong. Lookup any pressure/distance curve for gun barrels. For example, this one, where pressure peaks in about the first half inch:
The second statement may be reasonably close - but the OP said "way too far", which is more than a .025" difference.
The third statement is incorrect. The bullet is held by neck tension and inertia, and while the volume would be expanding nearly continuously, it starts from a lower point. Reducing the case volume by any means - thicker walls, deeper seating - affects the pressure. SandRoad already posted a link to a useful analysis, I'll repost it now: http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2978615&postcount=12 - you should read it.
Why do I care enough to type? Because your advice is dangerous.
EDIT: SandRoad beat me to it.
- Location
- Kingston, Ontario
I don't think a bullet puller would work as the bullet was too far into the case.
Pardon my ignorance but can someone explain why it is a bad idea to saw into a live round. I cut through the brass case and into the base of the bullet and did not touch the powder. The base of the bullet was removed with a small screwdriver and the powder was poured out leaving the bottom half of the case empty but with a live primer still in it.
The creation of heat primarily. The heat generated from sawing (even slowly and carefully) creates the risk of accidental combustion of the powder. Its actually surprising how much heat is generated. Now you wouldn't take a lighter to your ammo, even if you just heated the tip. Not because it would always detonate, but because you know heat poses the risk of igniting the powder and, and this is the important part, you can't control the process enough to ensure a level heat distribution. You could saw off live bullets for years and not have an accident, but that wouldn't make it safe, it would just make you lucky.
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RiverOtter
Member
- Location
- British Columbia
Fill the primed case with water, let it soak overnight, and turf it in the garbage.
As to the original post, if I didn't have an inertia puller, I'd coat the round in black sharpie and put it in a safe place, until I could borrow one.....
The bullet doesn't need to be protruding from the case for an inertia puller to work either.
Got chills when I read the word "sawing"......
As to the original post, if I didn't have an inertia puller, I'd coat the round in black sharpie and put it in a safe place, until I could borrow one.....
The bullet doesn't need to be protruding from the case for an inertia puller to work either.
Got chills when I read the word "sawing"......
peter2772000
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Montreal, Quebec, Canada
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
And if correct, the bullet would have easily moved into the lead, and the pressure would begin to drop. Bullet travel is without much resistance until the rifling is contacted, then as resistance to movement increases so does pressure. This is why in rifle cartridges pressure increases if the bullet is seated hard into the lands.
What applies in one case applies in another. Consider those cartridges that operate with long leads. The Weatherby cartridges with long leads could develop much higher velocity because they could be loaded with heavier powder charges due to the bullet jump before the rifling. When those cartridges were chambered in rifles without the long lead, their advantage over other cartridges of similar capacity disappeared. The .458 Winchester is little more than an overgrown pistol cartridge, but when fired in a Lott chambered rifle, velocity is low due to the jump to the lands. Conversly it can be loaded much hotter when fired in a Lott chambered rifle than in a rifle with a .458 Winchester chamber.
So what happens when a pistol bullet is seated deeply into the case. Well the first thing is that the powder charge prevents the bullet from being seated much deeper, we are talking about the stubby .40 S&W round not the 10mm. Depending on the propellant and bullet chosen, 70-90% of the case length is taken up by powder. The .40 case is .85" long. Now I just pulled a factory Speer 180 gr .40 S&W cartridge apart. The bullet weighs 181 grs, and the powder charge is 4.2 grs. There does not seem to be any full power loading data that matches this weight, and I do not recognize the powder that appears to me a mix of flake and ball powder. Seating the bullet as deeply as possible results in an OAL of 1". I admit I would be hesitant to fire a full power cartridge this short, but with normal canister powders, much more of the case volume would be used up.
Full power loads with a 180 gr bullet range from 7-9 grs depending on which powder is chosen. It does seem reasonable that the majority of full powered loads for this cartridge would quickly compress and prevent the bullet from becoming much shorter than the required OAL, probably on the order of 1.1".
Our OP did not specify which powder or bullet made up his load or just how short his OAL was. But if the load was a reduced load, I would have no issue in shooting the round off that had been seated too short, and if a full powered load which resulted in an OAL of 1.1" again I would have no issue with shooting it.
- Location
- Kingston, Ontario
So, I will...
1. Never saw a live a live round of ammo.
2. Buy a bullet puller.
3. Soak the primed case in oil, let sit overnight and then deprime in the press.
For the record I was developing a load and starting with 5.4 grains of Titegroup using 155 grain Hornandy HP/XTP bullets and CCI brass. I estimate the overall length of the cartridge was .975 inch.
1. Never saw a live a live round of ammo.
2. Buy a bullet puller.
3. Soak the primed case in oil, let sit overnight and then deprime in the press.
For the record I was developing a load and starting with 5.4 grains of Titegroup using 155 grain Hornandy HP/XTP bullets and CCI brass. I estimate the overall length of the cartridge was .975 inch.
RiverOtter
Member
- Location
- British Columbia
With the use of #2, you need not worry about #3, because you can make adjustment and seat another bullet. Neck tension may be reduced slightly, but that is not a safety concern, assuming it holds the bullet in place.
If you feel the need to remove the primer, water would allow you to achieve that goal and the case could be dried and reused. Oil would be a PITA to get out.
If you feel the need to remove the primer, water would allow you to achieve that goal and the case could be dried and reused. Oil would be a PITA to get out.
RiverOtter
Member
- Location
- British Columbia
On further thought, if you're careful you can use an inertia puller to partially remove the bullet, then run the round through your seater again with the proper COAL setting...
Hmmm....I dunno if that would work RO...I mean, where's the risk? Where's the danger to your hands and eyes? Where's the excitement of not knowing exactly whats going to happen?
Nope....Much better to risk it all by some of the other methods mentioned....
Nope....Much better to risk it all by some of the other methods mentioned....
RiverOtter
Member
- Location
- British Columbia
No loading bench should be withouit a pair of pliers, a butane torch and a hack saw......
I can savvy emergencies........(Grin)
I can savvy emergencies........(Grin)
Boomer, I would just like to summarize a couple of points.
In this example the "resistance" of the pistol bullet engaging the rifling has nothing to do with the pressure. The pressure is well past it's peak by the time the bullet engages the rifling. In this case the MASS of the bullet is the "resistance" and what cause the pressure to build.
Yes, rifle bullets seated into the lands MIGHT increase pressure, and the amount it increases pressure is also subject to dozens of variables. Again, you are generalizing.
I am just trying to show that there is a lot more going on than the majority of people understand. And extrapolating from a known safe condition/load, should be based on facts and not assumptions.
- Internal ballistics is very complicated. There are MANY dozens of factors changing simultaneously. Things do not happen linearly, nor can they be calculated "in your head", or "by feel".
- You are trying to rationalize and simplify all of these complex processes into something you believe you understand. (each described by a different equation/function).
- In doing so, you are also confusing many of the parameters, ie pressure, velocity, burning time, powder burn rate, acceleration of the bullet, increase in combustion volume, etc....... While other factors you are simply ignoring. In trying to simplify the complex processes you are missing MAJOR parts and as such, getting your conclusions wrong when you try and extrapolate.
- Things like forcing the bullet into the rifling, and lead length are MINOR factors in pressure. Again, don't confuse pressure and velocity. They are not linearly related.
In this example the "resistance" of the pistol bullet engaging the rifling has nothing to do with the pressure. The pressure is well past it's peak by the time the bullet engages the rifling. In this case the MASS of the bullet is the "resistance" and what cause the pressure to build.
Yes, rifle bullets seated into the lands MIGHT increase pressure, and the amount it increases pressure is also subject to dozens of variables. Again, you are generalizing.
I am just trying to show that there is a lot more going on than the majority of people understand. And extrapolating from a known safe condition/load, should be based on facts and not assumptions.
You haven't read and understood the analysis that SandRoad did in the link he and I posted. If you significantly reduce the OAL in a pistol round with normal (eg, fast) powders, you radically increase the pressure to unsafe levels. It's cut and dried.
+1 decreasing cartridge case capacity will greatly increase pressure levels levels in the case....
i would invest in a bullet puller for future mistakes (which will happen) and for that primer soak it in some oil and press er out! (wear safety glasses)....
