I didn't think I was a n00b until I moved to Ontario

Claybuster said:
And you can go through all of that without ever having fired a shot yourself, cleared a malfunction or been on a live firing line with someone shooting beside you.

I have been a member of four Ontario handgun clubs and took the course more than once even before the CFO required it. I've also shot as a guest at a dozen others clubs and found no two ranges had precisely the same rules. An orientation gives the new shooter a chance to learn how procedures might be different than what he knew previously and to give the club exec a chance to check him or her out personally. If that offends your sense of self importance I'd rather not share the line with you.
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nothing to do with self importance. its just another step. I cant think of any accidents that have happened on a range. My club just renewed our insurance, and when i asked why it was so cheap, they told me because its statistically safer than golf, there just aint alot of accidents, in any province. so if the sport is safe, why all the needless extra controls?

and if someof you think its so important, why not write your government asking they include that course as part of the restricted, they can raise the price and keep the students a few extra hours.

transporting firearms in a safe, legal manner is another aspect of shooting. why dont they give 'enhanced' courses on packing a gun in a case too? it will make people that much safer right? they teach it on the course, but its not 'live'. Ive seen more guys show up at a range, having forgot a trigger lock, than i have shoot the guy on the line next to him. :rolleyes:
 
1VP25mm said:
there is a considerable disconnect between the ATT process in Ontario and the rest of the country.
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ding! ding! ding! we have a winner!


we've all seen someone act like an a$$ on a range, and it usually doesnt take long for the RO or another member to whisper in their ear. thats why clubs have rules, and if you break them, then dont let the door hit ya on the way out. Just because i guy is new doesnt make him unsafe, ive seen lots of stupid, and its comes in a variety of ages, shapes, sizes and skill levels.

'just one more course' isnt going to cut out the stupid, or neglectful.
 
Our range's safety courses are there for liability sake for the club. They want to make sure that everyone is competent. Your PAL means that you can safely STORE, LOAD and UNLOAD and TRANSPORT your firearm. There is no guarantee no matter what your background that you know how to safely shoot at a range. As all ranges are different in location and construction, there are particulars to each club that should be adhered to.

As the club's owners and membership are the ones who suffer if an accident occurs (insurance, publicity, liability, shutdowns etc...) then you will forgive us if we want you to take a day or two to show us how you intent to behave on the range. It is not perfect, it is a PITA and SOME clubs have overzealous probation periods, but they are protecting their own asses. If you owned the club and a bunch of strangers were coming to shoot at it, would you want a small demonstration of competency?

The membership course also informs you on the policy and procedure for reporting asshats that break the rules, thereby warning/kicking out the jerks who would have the club shut down due to negligence.

No offense intended but I don't know you and therefore I don't trust you. I've personally witnessed police and former military (and current for that matter) demonstrate supreme stupidity on my range and on crown land. Your credentials mean nothing to me. Show me that you know how to shoot safe, then once the baseline has been established, we can police each other to make sure bad habits don't creep in over time. You'll have to forgive me if I don't take your word as proof of how awesome you are.
 
gallen270 said:
transporting firearms in a safe, legal manner is another aspect of shooting. why dont they give 'enhanced' courses on packing a gun in a case too? it will make people that much safer right? they teach it on the course, but its not 'live'. Ive seen more guys show up at a range, having forgot a trigger lock, than i have shoot the guy on the line next to him. :rolleyes:
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Consequences would be one reason. Forgetting a trigger lock is in the absence of an LEO is little more than a minor embarassment and yes I've done it. Not maintaining muzzle control or becoming rattled by a FTF on a live firing line is more serious and if a mistake is made it's more than just an oops.

I'm not sure where, when or with whom you did your RPAL test but on mine making a restricted firearm ready for transport was covered and was part of the test. (It was the only place where I lost a point. Forgot to mention "permit" before locking the case :redface: )
 
drvrage

No offense taken; however, I think you're missing the point. Did you read all of the preceding posts?

Should have been a bit clearer, I've had the orientation so shooting my non-restricted stuff is good to go. No problem with that whatsoever, in fact I think it's a good idea as all ranges have their quirks to become familiar with.
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It is certainly the club's perogative to assess any new member, in fact it is only responsible to do so to some degree
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As I said, clubs have every right to assess the ability of new members and if someone thinks they're too cool for school in that regard then the club can simply refuse entry to that individual.
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I've said it three times now and I don't think I can make it any more clear. I fully supoport individual clubs taking steps to evaluate and familiarize new members with their facility. I completely disagree with the Ontario CFO going above and beyond the laws in place to make an additional course necessary to receive an ATT.
 
1VP25mm said:
drvrage

No offense taken; however, I think you're missing the point. Did you read all of the preceding posts?







I've said it three times now and I don't think I can make it any more clear. I fully supoport individual clubs taking steps to evaluate and familiarize new members with their facility. I completely disagree with the Ontario CFO going above and beyond the laws in place to make an additional course necessary to receive an ATT.
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My bad. I need more coffee. Sorry.
 
i dont think it takes a 'course' though. especially if you have to wait a year in some clubs to get it.

so i wait...say 6 months for a non-restricted course, another 6 for a restricted course, sometimes alot longer, then i pay for my pal and wait maybe 3 months. receive it, buy a pistol, wait for the transfer, couple of days to a month depending on province, than i have to wait for ANOTHER course?

If a member can show up, and demonstrat basic safety to the RO and other members, I say let him go. If he's being an idiot, tell him, he'll either correct it, or be asked to leave by the RO.

what about guys just wanting to plink in the bush? seems alot more dangerous than shooting on a controlled range, maybe we need a course for that too then?

Im ok with doing a course for a specific, like say IPSC shooting, that way you learn how to compete safely, and within the rules of the game. But do plinkers really need another course? or is it another frustration for someone wanting to join a club?

*RANT OFF*

what exactly does this course consist of?
 
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There is lots of things in Ontario that may frustrate everyone but you have to take it all in stride.Wait till you have to pay for your vehicle Emissions test, that may be only required in southern Ontario.
Then you can fly off in a rant.
 
gallen270 said:
what about guys just wanting to plink in the bush? seems alot more dangerous than shooting on a controlled range, maybe we need a course for that too then?
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Crown land doesn't have liability issues. You can't sue the federal government because they let you shoot on their land. (or maybe you caaaaan...hmmmmm.)
 
drvrage said:
Crown land doesn't have liability issues. You can't sue the federal government because they let you shoot on their land. (or maybe you caaaaan...hmmmmm.)
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so why does the provincial governemnt give a sh*t if i shoot you accidently, and you sue the club?

its nothing to do with liability, the clubs dont seem to be giving this course because they want too, they do it because they have too.

Can anyone tell me about a range that lost money due to lawsuits, where one user accidently killed or maimed another? (ive honestly never heard of any, enlighten me if you can think of something in recent memory)
 
1VP25mm said:
Salutations,

I've been lurking around for a while and as I won't be going to the range for a while (for reasons detailed below) I figured I'd say hi and perhaps spend some time on here.

I was under the, apparently mistaken, impression that I had a clue about firearms. Qualified on some pretty cool guns, urban ops instructor, fired a few rounds on the two way range. Somehow I got the impression I had developed a modicum of competence.

Then I moved to Ontario and learned that in fact I'm a hazard to myself and others and certainly can't be trusted to handle a WMD on the scale of a .22 revolver until I receive a full half day's training at my local range. I can't imagine how I've managed to muddle through so far without hurting myself.

In all seriousness though I'm beginning to lose it over the fact that I can't even shoot my .22 AR as I was out of province during the one course my club has run in the last 5 months or so. Not that I blame them, it's the laws in this province that are absurd.

Rant over.

In any case I'm sure most of you can infer my background from my screen name and my location from my preceding s**t fit. Looking forward to hopefully getting/sharing some good information around here.

Cheers
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Doesn't surprise me. It's Bantario.

CROWCA said:
WTF great post !
He said he needed to take a 1/2 day course at his range before he could shoot at the club.

That is sop at most clubs that are legitimate.

To shoot any weapon you need to have the club range officer walk you through the club and grounds as part of there safety procedure.(on joining)

Write the newspaper tell them how good you are??? WTF

Its a 1/2 day at the club.
Everyone takes it, do the 1/2 day and shoot all you want.

It sometimes weeds out the people you don't want in the club,which might have been a danger to other shooters.
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You are taught safe operating procedures when you take your firearms training.

If you require half a day to go through the range as a safety precaution, you SHOULD NOT own firearms.
 
I think it goes by the club. Out here in God's country you can actually show up and shoot on a range without having anything more than your PAL and a paid up membership. Too bad for your troubles. Find another club that isn't run by knobs.
 
Bruce

It's not an issue of the people/club that run the range, it's a province wide policy by the CFO. Coming from Alberta it's quite the culture shock that's for sure.
 
I have seen some of those wonderful ranges,a box on a stick.

Our club has had some of there ranges closed do to berm height infractions.(will be repaired in the spring)

All you people who think the Ontario regulations will not effect you,you might want to pull your heads out of you asses.

The days of starting a gun club in a field are over.

The guys that say shoot some were else,when all the some were else s have been closed,will be trying to get into a range were they have upgraded to keep up to requirements.

There will be no room for you because you wont spend 1/2 a day to familiarize your self with the range.

Calling a member of a legitimate shooting range a knob because of safety rules is very short sighted.

Correct me if I am wrong if you shoot any matches,pistol long range rifle,skeet or trap all have safety rules to protect the shooters and volunteers.

There were more hunting accidents when the boys came back from overs seas,all were experienced shooters,then there are today do to training courses.
 
gallen270 said:
so why does the provincial governemnt give a sh*t if i shoot you accidently, and you sue the club?

its nothing to do with liability, the clubs dont seem to be giving this course because they want too, they do it because they have too.

Can anyone tell me about a range that lost money due to lawsuits, where one user accidently killed or maimed another? (ive honestly never heard of any, enlighten me if you can think of something in recent memory)
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My club wants to run the courses. But it is run by Fudds. I'm with you all on the provincial inequities, but the course in itself is not a bad thing. It was the first chance 99% of people in my group had live firing a pistol with supervision. Many of them (all experienced with long guns) made a gazillion boo boos.

Fry: It is all fine and dandy for you to personally persecute anyone who is not up to your standards innately, but most human beings need to be shown how to do things. There are so many things that the courses don't teach you, and nothing counts as much as real practice with a training supervisor. Some get it right right off the bat. Many others need more time. By your standard, 2 out of 20 of the dudes I took my course with would have passed. Thanks for keeping the sport alive! I vote that you do not run for the CSSA or NFA presidency.
 
rockenrod said:
Just get you A$$ back to Alberta
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You could do all us Ex Pats a huge favor by instead bring Alberta out here... There are a few of us out here with "safe zones" though. ;)

1VP25mm.. I'm south of Belleville (45 mins from you, if you're looking for someone to shoot the #### (or paper, or meaty-furry things) with, give me a shout.

I'll give you the Bantario lowdown over a few beers.
 
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