IDPA/CDPA Whinning and #####ing

Canuck44 said:
"There are currently three recognized and valid courses available for handgun holster training."

Recognised by who? CSSA? The CFO in Alberta and B.C. have never heard of CDP so it can't be them. So who? To my knowledge there is no "government" mandated holster course requirement in Canada and in the interests of keeping government out of our sport I sincerely hope there are no organizations championing such a scheme. Handgun sports have enough barriors to participation now...we don't need more.

I wouldn't assume C 68 is administered equally across Canada David.
There is significant evidence that it is not. From what others have written to appears the divide takes place where some Provinces embraced C 68 (Ontario) and supported the Federal Legislation and those that didn't (B.C., Alberta, Sask etc). Those provinces where the Feds administer C 68 ie CFO's there appears to be a much more liberal interpretation of the firearm registration and ATT process. eg. OUr ATT"s are not held by Clubs like I am told they are in Ontario nor are our Club Secretaries involved in the process. OUr ATT"s are open as to time and here in B.C. cover all of western Canada for attending club shoots, as well as all US border points. I have been told this is not the case in Ontario.

To me what is offensive in the extreme is how CSSA, who proport to be a responsible national organization openly plagerizes IDPA copyright both in the use of their rule book and target design. It is one thing for a club to shoot IDPA style shooting using IDPA rules, it is quite another for CSSA to do so at the expense of another shooting organization.

Since Canada has no laws that restrict IDPA participation in Canada, in fact IDPA has been in Canada for a number of years any claim that the IDPA rule book allows for such copyright infringement is thin at best.

Here in Terrace nobody approaches the line at an IDPA match unless the SO is satisfied the shooter has some proficiency in holster use. Our club runs monthly skills & drills nights for the benefit of new shooters as well as members. It is not until the SO is satisfied the shooter has proficiency in holster usage that he is allowed to shoot in our matches. At this point it is important to understand we are not faced with hundreds of applicants. One on one training is provided and from our experience, unless the indivdual is devoid of motor skills, it doesn't take long for new shooters to catch on to the skill sets. It is our experience that new shooters are particularily attentive, want "to do it right", understand they have a learning curve to follow and when move to the line tend to spend their time being careful, going slow and following safe gun handling. As their experience rises, so does their speed and skill.

We have yet to have an applicant come forward who has never handled a gun before.

CDP may survive as a shooting sport or it may evolve into a training arm of CSSA. From what I have seen and heard it won't be associated with IDPA nor was that ever contemplated by IDPA contrary to what have some have implied in the past.

Take Care

Bob
Click to expand...

Well Bob I can tell you in Ontario all shooting sports have to be approved by the CFO and have affiliation with one of the regognizded organizations for insurance and liability purposes, as was the case with IDPA when it started and affiliated with the NFA, Steve Shirley told me that himself when we spoke, very nice guy.

We don't make the rules here in Ontario Bob, we only follow them and we have no choice, it is no use to scream and yell at a Majority Government who is on the war path to ban handguns as it is, that will only make it worse for us.

CDP will most certainly survive as a sport, as will IDPA just like IPSC and PPC, and we will continue to have a good time with it. Like I have said a few times already, for us it was a matter of CDP being here first so that is what we went with and again, not one of the people I have put throught the course had any complaints.

You guys are having fun as are we, can we just leave it at that now?
 
Last edited:
Steve David said:
Well Bob I can tell you in Ontario all shooting sports have to be approved by the CFO and have affiliation with one of the regognizded organizations for insurance and liability purposes,
Click to expand...

Ontario is not the rest of Canada. The Ontario CFO's policies only apply in Ontario. Why do proponents of CDP always imply that it is national?

Steve David said:
CDP will most certainly survive as a sport, as will IDPA just like IPSC and PPC,
Click to expand...

What about CPSA?; the break-away from IPSC in Canada. Where are they now?
 
Dragoon said:
Ontario is not the rest of Canada. The Ontario CFO's policies only apply in Ontario. Why do proponents of CDP always imply that it is national?



What about CPSA?; the break-away from IPSC in Canada. Where are they now?
Click to expand...

I personally have never implied it was Federal, as a matter of fact I have enphasized in all my threads it was an Ontario issue, and I am confident it will survive, there are a lot of clubs and people shooting it here now. Can we just have fun now.
 
Just out of curiosity, for a couple of guys who ssem to really talk about supporting shooting sports and the fact that we have enough road blocks already, you guys seem very determined to see CDP fail, what gives guys, I mean come on, what is the problem here?
 
I see the battle has moved from one venue to another.
Understand one thing Bob; we are not created equal from one province to the next. Ergo, we do the best we can within the limitations that are imposed on us by such shallow thinkers as McGuinty, Miller, Blair et al.
We have now shot CDP for close to a year, and perhaps there are similarities
with IDPA. This is akin to many other things in life that seem to mimic each other and we live in peace and harmony with them.
It's called ''competition'', and competiotion is very healthy to an industrialized society. Some of the benefits are: Better product selection, better pricing, better quality etc..Personally, I think Steve David is right;I don't know why you're into shooting, but most of us are in it for fun. And I'll be damned if I'm
going to allow a bunch of pointless ranting detract from it!
I'm having fun; sounds like Steve and many others are too!
Aren't you?
 
We have now shot CDP for close to a year, and perhaps there are similarities
Click to expand...

Similarities? CDP doesn't have a rulebook or targets of it's own!
The manual used at CDP courses is the IDPA manual. Any differences are "It's the same as IDPA but we allow Uncle Mike's Kydex Holsters" variety.

Does anyone know how CDP got larger than a 1 club , local entity?
Does anyone know why CDP creators didn't go with IDPA?
Seems like it would have saved all this arguing.
How exactly did it go from "Gee, IDPA looks like fun. Let's do that at our club"
to being forced to join CSSA and take a CSSA course, to shoot a sport that they effectively stole the rules and targets for.

Again, if anyone can clarify the roots of CDP. Not, "it was the only available Defensive Pistol at the time" but the "Why CDP at all?"
Why wasn't IDPA started up here. It wasn't the rules, IDPA makes country allowances. It wasn't the CFO mandated holster courses as IDPA is here without them. What was it?

Did it evolve from a time when several clubs wanted to compete at each others ranges? If so, why not start IDPA?

If I sound negative , don't take it that way. I'm just a frustrated new shooter who is looking for the reason this conflict came about. It would have been far easier and way more productive to just start IDPA up here.
 
Canuck44 said:
To me what is offensive in the extreme is how CSSA, who proport to be a responsible national organization openly plagerizes IDPA copyright both in the use of their rule book and target design.
Click to expand...

When I took the CDP course I was not provided a copy of the IDPA rule book. Kind of hard to accuse CSSA of plagiarizing something that they do not provide copies of, and is readily available off the web.

So it would have been better for CSSA to slightly alter the target and slightly modify the rules in order to be different? That would be dumb. While I have issues with CSSA's Ontario=Canada attitude I don't see a big problem with the CDP program. As has been stated here a number of time, there was no IDPA here when CSSA took the initiative and ran with it. They did what was needed to get this style of shooting up and running in Ontario. Whining about it now isn't very useful. Things might have been done different/better, but that's hindsight. CPD exists and is not going to go away as long as the organizers don't do anything stupid. If you hate CDP so much then set up alternate options at a significantly lower cost and then you will probably see CDP disappear.
 
merged the nattering.

You know all this he said/she said BS is really turing me off shooting with any group here.

I would like to point out that just because the CFO may (or may not) recongize something does not make it competant.
I had (Ont in 1992) to take a range familiarization course before they would (Stittsville Shooting Range) give me an ATT.
The BOZO they had was all certified up - proceeded to load a revolver (in a classroom setting) with live ammo and wave it around.

I'm not claiming anyone teaching things is that stupid -- but the point is a lot of the paper Canadian gunowners (and the gov't) like to wave around is not really worth the paper its printed on.
 
Gee; IDPA doesn't allow Uncle Mike's Kydex holsters? See, there you have it;
that's all that I use for my Glocks. I see no good reason on earth to
disallow the use of these holsters. Do you???
( Maybe you should start a rant over that silly issue!)
The CSSA issue is academic. It is a regulation of my club that I be a member
of the CSSA ;esp being on the board of directors.
Enjoy whichever shooting discipline you're involved in and we'll do the same!
See ya!
 
If I am not mistaken, this thread was originally started to promote a CDP course at The Shooting Edge, correct? Well let it rest at that then. You very few extreme pro IDPA, CDP hating shooters who have weighed in here are the ones with the real agenda, as Canuck44 accused me of having, and are the ones who cleaerly have a major hatred on for CDP. It is simple, don't shoot it. Who cares where it came from or the roots of it, it is here, it is approved and it is fun as is IDPA, can we just leave it at that now. I have stressed from the onset of me entering this debate that at my club we allow all shooters from CDP, IDPA, PPC and IPSC to participate in CDP shooting, we even allow the offshoot combat leagues from Southern Ontario who have CFO approval to join the fun if they wish. On the rule book issue, out of the 4 classes that I have taught and the 100 + shooters that have attended them, I have never once used the IDPA rule book, we have our own instruction manual, we have our own instructional DVD and we have our own test. Let it rest now, you just keeping pounding and pounding at the same topic trying to prove something, this is what we do not need. Those of you attending TSE for the course, you will have a great time, those of you in my area who wish to shoot a match. Every 2nd and 4th Thursday at The Marksmen Club just east of Oshawa, you can PM me for details, all of the listed above are welcome, shooting starts at 8:00pm it is $5.00 a head (before you scream about this read on) which is remitted back to the club, it is not cheap to heat the club house and range in the winter and cool it in the summer, ( yes we have central A/C), and to purchase supplies for the matches, (and yes we infact have targets as well). You will have a great time, there will be no BS and if there is, I will show you to the door myself. All are welcome.
 
Last edited:
Who cares where it came from or the roots of it, it is here, it is approved and it is fun as is IDPA, can we just leave it at that now.
Click to expand...

I care. But if no one knows then I'll drop it.

I have stressed from the onset of me entering this debate that at my club we allow all shooters from CDP, IDPA, PPC and IPSC to participate in CDP shooting, we even allow the offshot combat leagues from Southern Ontario who have CFO approval.
Click to expand...
And my club allows the same as well. The goal should always be more shooting and shooters.

On the rule book issue, out of the 4 classes that I have taught and the 100 + shooters that have attended them, I have never once used the IDPA rule book, we have our own instruction manual, we have our own instructional DVD and we have our own test.
Click to expand...

So that makes it not officially CDP? Mr. Burke said above that there is no CDP rulebook yet.What has everyone been using so far? :confused:
I'm confused. Guess I'll drop this as well.

Those fo you attending TSE for the course, you will have a great time, those of you in my area who wish to shoot a match. Every 2nd and 4th Thursday at The Marksmen Club just east of Oshawa, you can PM me for details, all of the listed above are welcome, shooting starts at 8:00pm it is $5.00 a head which is remitted back to the club and for the purchase of suppllies, and yes we have targets as well, you will ahve a great time, ther will be no BS and if so, I will show you to the door myself. All are welcome.
Click to expand...
Matches in Southern Ontario are one of the main reasons I would be joining CDP. I have friends in TO. I could combine visits with shooting.

I can understand the defensiveness considering the tone of some posts. Personally I just wanted to see a reason behind it all.
Consider it the last vestiges of my idealistic optimistic youth.
 
I did not say there was a rule book, I said an instruction manual, DVD and test.

If you want to see a real reason behind it all and have not seen it as of yet after you commenting several times in the thread, then you just don't get it, but here it is again.

THIS IS FOR FUN!
 
If you are qualified in one of the listed discplined, then come on out and participate, if not, I would be more then happy to ad your name to the list for the next CDP course at our club, PM me for details, and yes it is still $50.00.
 
Steve David said:
If you are qualified in one of the listed discplined, then come on out and participate, if not, I would be more then happy to ad your name to the list for the next CDP course at our club, PM me for details, and yes it is still $50.00.
Click to expand...


No worries, my club offers both IDPA(Free) and CDP($50 + CSSA membership) courses. Pay or don't up to the shooter. I am one who is choosing to pay extra to do CDP and have more fun.
Most will just shoot club matches and don't have to pay the CDP or CSSA extra amounts.
Match attendees do need to attend the Clubs course or show proof of PPC, Black Badge, or CDP course. We all want to be safe!

Cheers!
 
"We have now shot CDP for close to a year, and perhaps there are similarities with IDPA."

Try reading the last issue of CSSA magazine and then talk to me about similarities.

My only objection to CDP is that it initaially represented itself as something it clearly wasn't and CSSA is actively promoting the use of copyright material for their own financial benefit, a fact I find deceitful.

NFA offers membership and insurance to IDPA members at a discount but taking such membership/insurance is not mandatory. OUr club provides insurance to it's members via the BC Wildlife Federation (comes with our membership) so the addional insurance may or may not be attractive to all.

Any type of shooting whether it is IDPA, IPSC and CDP are excellent venues for shooters, and I applaud those involved. But I contunually hear comments coming out of Ontario that sound very much like they are national in intent when clearly they are not. Why shooters in Ontario put up with the nonsense you do is beyond me.

RudyH, one reason why you might not have gotten an IDPA rule book is that IDPA has no intention of supplying CSSA with their rule books as was implied in CSSA last publication. If CDP doesn't use IDPA's rule book then what rule book do they now use?



Take Care

Bob
 
Stop the insanity. Let it go. Go shooting. Until the powers that be come to a decision, this is what we have. If you have a problem, put it back to your leadership. If they feel there is legal issues, they can pursue them. Otherwise this is bordering on hate mongering. (Not directed at an individual, but the path of the topic)
 
Steve David said:
If I am not mistaken, this thread was originally started to promote a CDP course at The Shooting Edge, correct? Well let it rest at that then. You very few extreme pro IDPA, CDP hating shooters who have weighed in here are the ones with the real agenda, as Canuck44 accused me of having, and are the ones who cleaerly have a major hatred on for CDP. It is simple, don't shoot it. Who cares where it came from or the roots of it, it is here, it is approved and it is fun as is IDPA, can we just leave it at that now. I have stressed from the onset of me entering this debate that at my club we allow all shooters from CDP, IDPA, PPC and IPSC to participate in CDP shooting, we even allow the offshoot combat leagues from Southern Ontario who have CFO approval to join the fun if they wish. On the rule book issue, out of the 4 classes that I have taught and the 100 + shooters that have attended them, I have never once used the IDPA rule book, we have our own instruction manual, we have our own instructional DVD and we have our own test. Let it rest now, you just keeping pounding and pounding at the same topic trying to prove something, this is what we do not need. Those of you attending TSE for the course, you will have a great time, those of you in my area who wish to shoot a match. Every 2nd and 4th Thursday at The Marksmen Club just east of Oshawa, you can PM me for details, all of the listed above are welcome, shooting starts at 8:00pm it is $5.00 a head (before you scream about this read on) which is remitted back to the club, it is not cheap to heat the club house and range in the winter and cool it in the summer, ( yes we have central A/C), and to purchase supplies for the matches, (and yes we infact have targets as well). You will have a great time, there will be no BS and if there is, I will show you to the door myself. All are welcome.
Click to expand...

It was broken away from that thread last week.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom