IDPA/CDPA Whinning and #####ing

[raks]

What seems to be at the heart of all of this is CDP's claim that somehow they were working hand in hand with IDPA HQ which in fact they weren't.

"In the beginning" CSSA was working with 'IDPA HQ'. Indeed, I don't have the attendance list, but I'm pretty sure the folks that have established 'REAL IDPA' were attendees at the first CSSA CDP Safety Officer Certification course held in Ajax Ontario in early 2006. That was a good time, and people seemed to be on the same page.

Anyhow, for whatever reason folks have decided that the CSSA approach is inferior/flawed... whatever ... and have intervened to make sure that 'REAL IDPA' is 'properly represented' in Canada.

Thats fine, go ahead. Canuck44, I offered to come to your range and teach the CDP courses, if the price tag is too high well so be it. If you're upset about the affiliation thats ok too. For the level of training we can provide I think it's quite cheap. Even with 'REAL Canadian IDPA' you do still have to pay for an additional IDPA membership to shoot in the USA - so I personally don't see the benefit.

Ultimately, I have no animosity towards 'REAL IDPA' and I look forward to a time when I can come to Terrace or Calgary or where ever and shoot.

We have enough real politics to deal with without dissing each others approach - as Storm pointed out I've never jumped on or attacked an IDPA thread and I don't plan to... but I will defend CDP & CSSA from falsehoods and accusations. Thanks all!

--Rob

 

[Canuck44]

raks

First let me say I was interested in CDP last summer when it was proposed to be a Canadian affiliate of IDPA. After contacted Dave in January it became clear to me CDP was not going to be affiliated with IDPA in any form and our club went on to become affiliated with IDPA (April/07).

Since then, we have had Mr. Rick Breneman, President of the Northwest Pistol Association come up and instruct the IDPA Safety Officer Course. Six of us have completed and passed the Safety Officer Course and one is in the process of being designated a Safety Officer Instructor. Note this is not a holster course. As a result our club now has six certified IDPA Safety Officers capable of acting as such at any IDPA club or sanctioned match. One will be at the Washington State Championships this August. The members who attended the course paid $75 a piece to help offset some of Mr. Breneman's travel costs. Our club picked up the balance. As an aside Mr. Breneman chose to take three days off of his personal holidays to provide our club with this course to which we are most thankful.

We now have 10 IDPA members with more showing interest in the sport. Three of our members have shot the Qualifier and now have a ranking in the three pistol divisions. Revolvers are next on our list.

As stated earlier I can only wish the best for CDP. The more that participate in our handgun sports the better.


As far as falsehoods are concerned I agree that approach has no place in these discussions. Suggesting CDP is recognised Coast to Coast by CFO's crosses that line as does any suggestion that IDPA supports or is connected to CDP as was suggested in CASSA last newsletter. What CDP offers is a holster course which I assume is similar to the Black Badge Course run by IPSC. If you need the instruction and think it has value then by all means take the course. If not don't.


Take Care

Bob

Edit to add: If you haven't tried them look at 5.11 Tactical Series pants for playing IDPA or CDP. As Rick pointed out they are almost a IDPA uniform.

rbb

 

[stormbringer]

Can anyone answer this simple question for me.....

Why can the CDPA not be Canada's IDPA?

It seems that what we see here is two parallel organizations being developed.

One (IDPA) is a new group with little (no?) infrastructure.

The other CDPA is part and parcel of CSSA and as such can leverage the structure of the larger group.

Is it really just a matter of egos on one or both parts as it appears?

 

[Steve David]

"In the beginning" CSSA was working with 'IDPA HQ'. Indeed, I don't have the attendance list, but I'm pretty sure the folks that have established 'REAL IDPA' were attendees at the first CSSA CDP Safety Officer Certification course held in Ajax Ontario in early 2006. That was a good time, and people seemed to be on the same page.

Anyhow, for whatever reason folks have decided that the CSSA approach is inferior/flawed... whatever ... and have intervened to make sure that 'REAL IDPA' is 'properly represented' in Canada.

Thats fine, go ahead. Canuck44, I offered to come to your range and teach the CDP courses, if the price tag is too high well so be it. If you're upset about the affiliation thats ok too. For the level of training we can provide I think it's quite cheap. Even with 'REAL Canadian IDPA' you do still have to pay for an additional IDPA membership to shoot in the USA - so I personally don't see the benefit.

Ultimately, I have no animosity towards 'REAL IDPA' and I look forward to a time when I can come to Terrace or Calgary or where ever and shoot.

We have enough real politics to deal with without dissing each others approach - as Storm pointed out I've never jumped on or attacked an IDPA thread and I don't plan to... but I will defend CDP & CSSA from falsehoods and accusations. Thanks all!

--Rob

Everything being said here is true, as a matter of fact, the person running the CDP league with me at our club was on that course. At that time Dave Burke was infact talking with IDPA but that did not work out, so CDP was created. What is the real problem here? If it is all aboutthe cost, well then this has just become really stupid.

 

[willysman]

IDPA has a large infastructure just go to IDPA's website to see. It is an internationally recognized shooting discipline in 20 countries. I have shot CDP in ontario and have no heartache with it other than certain individuals claiming that it is IDPA. It is not and never will be, if you were to go to Pensylvania in Sept for the US nationals (as a few of us IDPA Canada members are) claiming as a CDP member you could shoot it you would be sorely disappointed. As for Canadian infrastructure we have at least 6 clubs and a few more applying in Canada. As well we have an appointed Area Coordinator for Canada that was given his postion by IDPA HQ.

 

[Steve David]

Can anyone answer this simple question for me.....

Why can the CDPA not be Canada's IDPA?

It seems that what we see here is two parallel organizations being developed.

One (IDPA) is a new group with little (no?) infrastructure.

The other CDPA is part and parcel of CSSA and as such can leverage the structure of the larger group.

Is it really just a matter of egos on one or both parts as it appears?

I could not agree more, lets just have fun now for F**KS SAKE, if you wnat to take the CDP course go for it, if not then don't, take another one. This is the biggest reason I personally hate affiliation, it just causes problems that we as a shooting community do not need, but bring upon ourselves. Sometimes I can't help but think we are our own worst enemies.

 

[raks]

As far as falsehoods are concerned I agree that approach has no place in these discussions. Suggesting CDP is recognised Coast to Coast by CFO's crosses that line as does any suggestion that IDPA supports or is connected to CDP ...

Right, well I haven't phoned all the CFO's to ask , however CSSA is well recognized and in my experience a CSSA certificate actually means something - as noted IDPA training is not a holster safety course. CDP training covers holster safety as well as game rules - all my students have found it to be a very good value.

What I really wanted to address is this idea that CSSA trainers are paid or compensated for their time. That's not true and verging on slander, I give my time freely to train shooters and to build the CSSA. For the level of training I think the cost is a bargain and comes with membership in the most active and progressive firearms association in the country.

I think the CSSA's CDP program is a great way to get new people out to the range, and it's a more casual sport than IPSC which appeals to some.

I do think having two parallel orgs is kind of silly and I'm not sure what triggered the formation of 'Real IDPA'. In any case, our MDPL matches are open to any trained (Black Badge, PPC, 'X'DPA etc.) shooters who are CSSA members so you 'REAL IDPA' guys are more than welcome to come on out and play with us.

As far as CDP & IDPA affiliation, it does seem that now there may not be a link between the two groups. However it was being worked out by the CSSA office starting in 2005 - but not finalized fast enough I guess. Now we have this wonderful schism, fantastic!

--Rob

Canuck44 - yes the 5.11 gear is great, the vests are so good they should almost be banned (appendix F.3) or maybe I'm just pissed at wittmans tac-reload speed~!

 

[raks]

...if you were to go to Pensylvania in Sept for the US nationals (as a few of us IDPA Canada members are) claiming as a CDP member you could shoot it you would be sorely disappointed.

What would stop me from just buying a US membership and shooting?? I don't understand??

 

[Popurhedoff]

Can anyone answer this simple question for me.....

Why can the CDPA not be Canada's IDPA?

It seems that what we see here is two parallel organizations being developed.

One (IDPA) is a new group with little (no?) infrastructure.

The other CDPA is part and parcel of CSSA and as such can leverage the structure of the larger group.

Is it really just a matter of egos on one or both parts as it appears?

Why can the CDPA not be Canada's IDPA?

... because CDPA is CDPA and IDPA is IDPA ... two different sports/organizations.

One (IDPA) is a new group with little (no?) infrastructure.

The other CDPA is part and parcel of CSSA and as such can leverage the structure of the larger group.

To answer: One (IDPA) is a new group with little (no?) infrastructure. IDPA is a new group yes... and it has a Canadian Area Coordinator (similiar duties of the Regional Director for IPSC) and is in the process of selecting Provinical/geographical area coordinators.

It has its own IDPA Safety Officers and Safety Officier Instructors course competitor/holster safety course as laid out by the parent organization IDPA HQ in the United States. IDPA Canada is officially affiliated with IDPA international and the NFA and as such can leverage the structure of the larger group if both the NFA and IDPA international and to a lesser extent the NRA through IDPA HQ in the United States.

Even with 'REAL Canadian IDPA' you do still have to pay for an additional IDPA membership to shoot in the USA - so I personally don't see the benefit

Wrong... there is no additional IDPA membership to compete in the USA or 20 other international countries. One IDPA membership period.


P.S.

I am a member of CDPA, IDPA, CSSA, NFA, IPSC..... and love them all.

 

[RePete]

What would stop me from just buying a US membership and shooting?? I don't understand??

Not shooting any qualifiers nor being classified.

Storm:

Why can the CDPA not be Canada's IDPA?

Because there is IDPA in Canada.

One (IDPA) is a new group with little (no?) infrastructure.

Check out IDPA.com It has a large infrastructure.

The other CDPA is part and parcel of CSSA and as such can leverage the structure of the larger group.

True, but I'm a member of the CSSA, NFA, NRA.

Is it really just a matter of egos on one or both parts as it appears?

I don't understand what you are asking.

 

[Popurhedoff]

What would stop me from just buying a US membership and shooting?? I don't understand??

Nothing can stop you from buying a US membership but you ask what can stop you??? You have to be at least classified Marksman to qualify and...

When you submit your application for the National IDPA championships, you will have to submit score sheets from two previous sanctioned IDPA matches to be eligible... now if you have those your in luck...if you dont... well then guess.

As we are a new organization which has not been established long enough to have two sanctioned matches in Canada yet, our Area Coordinator for Canada has brokered a deal with the IDPA HQ to allow Canadian registered (international) IDPA members to be eligible to compete at the National Championships by waving the two sanction match requirement for this year...

If you are interested in competing at the IDPA National Championships please contact our Area Cordinator at IDPA Canada . com

 

[stormbringer]

Ok............so what are the BIG differences between the rules of CDPA and IDPA in Canada in terms that actually effect how the game is played.

I sure hope that they are significant otherwise you all look like ego trippers to me.

( I mean both sides)

 

[Canuck44]

stormbringer

Why would you say that? Why the comment on the rules. IDPA's rule book was written by IDPA for IDPA. Ego trippers, I doubt any of this is about egos.

If CDP chooses to use IDPA rules, play IDPA and call it CDP then I guess that is up to them if indeed that is what is going on.

As to the courses as has been said, IDPA does not offer a holster course. The course we took was for the designation and certification as an IDPA Safety Officer. Aside from the rules the course covers course design and match direction as well as safety.

Enjoy both disciplines and by all means if you require a holster course by allmeans $150 is well worth it. If you don't then you won't likely be spending $150.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Popurhedoff]

Ok............so what are the BIG differences between the rules of CDPA and IDPA in Canada in terms that actually effect how the game is played.

I sure hope that they are significant otherwise you all look like ego trippers to me.

( I mean both sides)

The rules are identical, one (CDPA) are local, they have fun, get together and have local matches are not required to follow or enforce the rules completely, has no national body and have no interest in shooting Nationally or Internationally.

The other (IDPA) are also local and growing nationally and have fun, but they wish to shoot Nationally and Internationally. IDPA has a national body (area coordinator) which required strict adherance to the IDPA rule book and enforce the rules with the exception of National Rule Exemptions.

Both use the same rule book, but one (IDPA) is authorized to use the official IDPA rule book.

Both are a hoot to shoot... shoot both if you want... I do and have fun with both...

 

[maxpig]

Not shooting any qualifiers nor being classified.

wrong... an IDPA membership from the USA will allow you to participate in all IDPA sanctioned matches.... you apply to IDPA HQ not to IDPA Canada... part of the IDPA membership agreement (In consideration of THE INTERNATIONAL DEFENSIVE PISTOL ASSOCIATION, a Delaware corporation, permitting me to become a dues-paying affiliate (member) of that corporation and in consideration of that corporation permitting me to engage in the firearms shooting activities of that
corporation wherever the same are held in the United States or Internationally,....).

There are no residency requirements as there are in IPSC. So once you send your $$$ to IDPA HQ in Arizona your a member of IDPA not IDPA Canada (with WorldWide benefits... membership in IDPA Canada may be included but not exclusive or required)... So yes if there is a classifier match being held in Canada you're free to attend and shoot and get classed... although this may change in the future it is the case now....

oh yeah Lambton Sportsman club in Sarnia has been affliated with IDPA for years and until recently was the only club in Canada that was recognised as being affliated with IDPA... glad to see more clubs becoming Affiliated and offering another type of shooting sport in Canada...

 

[RePete]

wrong... an IDPA membership from the USA will allow you to participate in all IDPA sanctioned matches... part of the IDPA membership agreement (In consideration of THE INTERNATIONAL DEFENSIVE PISTOL ASSOCIATION, a Delaware
corporation, permitting me to become a dues-paying affiliate (member) of that corporation and in
consideration of that corporation permitting me to engage in the firearms shooting activities of that
corporation wherever the same are held in the United States or Internationally,....).

There are no residency requirements as there are in IPSC. So once you send your $$$ to IDPA HQ in Arizona your a member of IDPA not IDPA Canada (with WorldWide benefits)... So yes if there is a classifier match being held in Canada you're free to attend and shoot and get classed... although this may change in the future it is not the case now....

oh yeah Lambton Sportsman club in Sarnia has been affliated with IDPA for years and until recently was the only club in Canada that was recognised as being affliated with IDPA... glad to see more clubs becoming Affiliated and offering another type of shooting sport in Canada...

I stand corrected, I was thinking of the Nationals.

IDPA HQ is in Berryville, Arkansas not Arizona.

Burlington was the original IDPA club in Canada, but as you say, Sarnia for the last number of years, until 10 months ago.

 

[RePete]

Why would you say that? Why the comment on the rules. IDPA's rule book was written by IDPA for IDPA. Ego trippers, I doubt any of this is about egos.

If CDP chooses to use IDPA rules, play IDPA and call it CDP then I guess that is up to them if indeed that is what is going on.

As to the courses as has been said, IDPA does not offer a holster course. The course we took was for the designation and certification as an IDPA Safety Officer. Aside from the rules the course covers course design and match direction as well as safety.

Enjoy both disciplines and by all means if you require a holster course by allmeans $150 is well worth it. If you don't then you won't likely be spending $150.

Take Care

Bob

If you re-read page 57 of the rule book, it is recommended that new shooters are oriented, which we do as a matter of course.

 

[stormbringer]

Franklly this is just nuts!

Same rules.........

Two groups

That makes it all about egos.........



Mind you it reallyl would not be that bad if it were like Pops described but the constant slagging of this and that group makes both (all) look stupid.

 

[Chip]

Sure seems like it...

 

[bluesclues]

I have read the past 6 pages with great interest. I took the CDP course in Oshawa, as it was the closest club to me with a "_DPA" and this sport has really appealled to me. As I understood it, both IDPA and CDP are both Canadian IDPA's. I will explain. IDPA being shot in Canada is not the "real" IDPA any more than CDP is because both of these sports have to bend the official IDPA rule book to fit Canadian firearms laws.

I digress. I shoot CDP because of the proximity of clubs in my area. Although since it's the same rules, I may just buy a IDPA membership one day just to compete in the states.

To me, this is a shame that both sports couldn't co-operate to get more shooters involved. Since this is not the case. I do encourage everyone to give CDP or IDPA a chance (which ever is in your neck of the woods). You will have fun.