IDPA/CDPA Whinning and #####ing

Steve David: CFO's don't "approve" combat holster shooting sports. Believe it or not but we don't need permission from the governmnet or a civil servant to engage in these sports activities.

RAKS: There is "NO" fee associated with IDPA courses. No funds go to IDPA from the course. No one on this thread has suggested there is either. It is not necessary to have taken a "Holster" course from CDP or anyone other organization to receive an ATT. IF you are a member of a shooting sport then in some provinces a more extensive ATT may be given. (Alberta ATT"s now are issued restricting recipient to Alberta ranges- my sons live there and must now apply for an ATT to allow them to shoot over here in B.C.). Here in B.C. my ATT gives me transport rights to the Ontario border.

If CSSA wants to subsidize CDP holster courses and promote the myth that a holster course is necessary to shoot action sports in Canada that is up to them but they won't be receiving my renewal of membership to do so.

Take Care

Bob
 
CFO's don't "approve" combat holster shooting sports. Believe it or not but we don't need permission from the governmnet or a civil servant to engage in these sports activities.
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I just met our local CFO for our range recert. They ask the clubs to mandate holster training for action shooting. The word comes from them, but is through the local clubs. This has been our handgun policy long before even the day's of IPSC. The exec states you have to have a safe holster course. Please try to remember that we are shooting in the top percentile. The rules must be good for bubba with the cloth uncle mikes holster at sunset too. Also, the CFO decides whether action shooting is carried out at our facility based on our posted rules. It states, IPSC, and Action Shooting.
 
I spent twenty minutes writing a reply this morning, then when I hit send I got the reply that the thread was locked. :mad: If I can recover the train of thought I will post it tomorow.
 
Canuck44 said:
Steve David: CFO's don't "approve" combat holster shooting sports. Believe it or not but we don't need permission from the governmnet or a civil servant to engage in these sports activities.

RAKS: There is "NO" fee associated with IDPA courses. No funds go to IDPA from the course. No one on this thread has suggested there is either. It is not necessary to have taken a "Holster" course from CDP or anyone other organization to receive an ATT. IF you are a member of a shooting sport then in some provinces a more extensive ATT may be given. (Alberta ATT"s now are issued restricting recipient to Alberta ranges- my sons live there and must now apply for an ATT to allow them to shoot over here in B.C.). Here in B.C. my ATT gives me transport rights to the Ontario border.

If CSSA wants to subsidize CDP holster courses and promote the myth that a holster course is necessary to shoot action sports in Canada that is up to them but they won't be receiving my renewal of membership to do so.

Take Care

Bob
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In Ontario it is actually listed on the club permit, which is to mounted clearly on a wall for all to see, exactly which shooting discipline has been approved at that particular range as per the CFO. This not something most of us agree with, but this is the way it is. If the CFO tells us we cannot do it, then we don't, if they approve us for it, then we do.

On the holster sport issue, you said:

" If CSSA wants to subsidize CDP holster courses and promote the myth that a holster course is necessary to shoot action sports in Canada that is up to them but they won't be receiving my renewal of membership to do so"!

Do you actually think it is ok to allow a new shooter to holster up a pistol and just start competeing with no formal training? :confused:

On the ATT issue, in Ontario we also have ATT's that allow us to attend any restricted range in Ontario approved by the CFO. Is this the way would like it, certainly not, but this is the way it is and we make the best of it, we do not need to draw any negative attention to ourselves from the McGunity/Bryant bandwagon, we have enough of a hard time with them as it is, and unfortuantly they are a majority right now.
 
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As an uninvolved moderator -- I had a look at the entire thread.

My opinion is
1) It would be greatly benificial if all the *DPA's could come to gther under one banner.
2) Some members from other provinces do not have a full understanding of some other provinces interpretations of the Firearms Act and how the CFO etc. implements policies.
3) Having been at two different range inspections - I can tell you for a FACT that the CFo does in fact determine which disiclines are allowed at a specific range - due to the templates used. Some ranges are templated for action events -- and some are not.

Suck back, reload and try to find a common ground, and failing that at least follow some common curteousy to your fellow shooters.

Cheers
Kev
 
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KevinB said:
As an uninvolved moderator -- I had a look at the entire thread.

My opinion is
1) It would be greatly benificial if all the *DPA's could come to gther under one banner.
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Definitely. As a new "action" shooter, it's confusing and intimidating to be in an area that shoots several varieties. I don't think it will be an amicable solution though. IDPA HQ seems pretty adamant that they will not "merge" as it is their rule book and their targets and that the other DPA's have nothing to offer. Something has to give though. As more and more shooters get into it, the more it will become an issue. The simpler the process the better. Make it a hassle, lose shooters.

From my perspective, I see the validity of a course that issues a certificate that allows you to prove you have taken the "training". Right now though with a mix of IDPA and CDP and ODPL in the region, Taking the Black Badge and joining IDPA as well lets you shoot 4 disciplines (Unless CDP requires CSSA membership) which is the best Bang for my buck.
IDPA training is free, but as long as there are other DPA's shooting in the area, you have no proof of that training.I'm on a free *DPA course tomorrow at SFFGC. It lets me shoot the matches at the club but not any CDP matches in the area. It is free thoug hso fits my financial situation at the moment and fits for those that want to try it out first before spending a chunk of money.

2) Some members from other provinces do not have a full understanding of some other provinces interpretations of the Firearms Act and how the CFO etc. implements policies.
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Ontario CFO sucks.

3) Having been at two different range inspections - I can tell you for a FACT that the CFo does in fact determine which disiclines are allowed at a specific range - due to the templates used. Some ranges are templated for action events -- and some are not.
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Yeah, glad my range is certified for Action at the 25m,50M and 200m IIRC.
I know the 200 is Restricted rated but not sure about action.

Suck back, reload and try to find a common ground, and failing that at least follow some common curteousy to your fellow shooters.

Cheers
Kev
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Good advice.
 
"Do you actually think it is ok to allow a new shooter to holster up a pistol and just start competeing with no formal training? "

No I don't. Canada is unique in this respect Canadians are so immature they can't be trusted as adults to seek out assistance when entering a sport. What Canadians need is a law that states what you must do or not do in their lives. Shooting sports is no different. To encourage shooters to enter handgun sports and to emphasize how much value the training is their must be a fee attached to a mandated "holster" course. No doubt CSSA, working for all of us, will suggest this to the Ontario CFO at their first available opportunity. The higher the fee the better the course, (and cash flow for CSSA).

In the rest of the world adults don't need this kind of hand holding but in Canada.....

As I understand it CFO's inspect ranges for safety and depending on the physical facility certify the range for various shooting disciplines. It is a huge leap to suggest that because a range is certified for action shooting that a "holster" course is a requirement. Given their in depth knowledge of all the shooting diciplines one can only assume we can all sleep better with the knowledge Canada's Civil Service is hard at work making the world safer for all Canadians.

Given the fact that others have checked with their CFO's who seem to have no knowledge of CDP, likely IDPA either for that matter one wonders how engrossed they are with "holster" courses. Sorry but I don't believe such is the case.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
"Do you actually think it is ok to allow a new shooter to holster up a pistol and just start competeing with no formal training? "

No I don't. Canada is unique in this respect Canadians are so immature they can't be trusted as adults to seek out assistance when entering a sport. What Canadians need is a law that states what you must do or not do in their lives. Shooting sports is no different. To encourage shooters to enter handgun sports and to emphasize how much value the training is their must be a fee attached to a mandated "holster" course. No doubt CSSA, working for all of us, will suggest this to the Ontario CFO at their first available opportunity. The higher the fee the better the course, (and cash flow for CSSA).

In the rest of the world adults don't need this kind of hand holding but in Canada.....

As I understand it CFO's inspect ranges for safety and depending on the physical facility certify the range for various shooting disciplines. It is a huge leap to suggest that because a range is certified for action shooting that a "holster" course is a requirement. Given their in depth knowledge of all the shooting diciplines one can only assume we can all sleep better with the knowledge Canada's Civil Service is hard at work making the world safer for all Canadians.

Given the fact that others have checked with their CFO's who seem to have no knowledge of CDP, likely IDPA either for that matter one wonders how engrossed they are with "holster" courses. Sorry but I don't believe such is the case.

Take Care

Bob
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I still do not understand what your issue with CDP is? You bounce from cost, to CFO, to holster course, what is it, or is it everything? I am not trying to be impolite, but man you seem so hostile over this, like I said, this is for fun only! We do not discouage our shooters from doing IDPA, I actually encourage it, if they want to go do that too, I even give them the contact info, but to put it best, someone mentioned it earlier. For us CDP was here first, we really wanted to start shooting this style of shooting again after a 4 year hiatis thanks to the CFO :puke: , and CDP came on the scene first, so we did it. We have no issues with it, no one has any problems with it and again, everyone has fun.
 
Canuck44, the CDP course sets a standard that is transferable from club to club, city to city, and so on. To have a system like that, you need an office to keep track of certificates and such - otherwise there's people who will lie or forge credentials.

If credentials aren't important to you then you won't care about that, but more and more I do. With friends and people I trust I don't need to see 'papers' but as a match director I deal with people I don't know and a certificate (backed up by a recognized association) is the easiest way to show that they know the game and how to be safe.

IDPA membership is open (ages 12 and up) and dosen't require any kind of safety course - this is great - but it dosen't give me any assurance that competitors know what they're doing.

Canuck44 said:
No doubt CSSA, working for all of us, will suggest this to the Ontario CFO at their first available opportunity. The higher the fee the better the course, (and cash flow for CSSA).
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To look at the courses as a 'cash grab' is incorrect. Office and training infrastructure costs, that's what you're paying for. In addition, course fees cover instructors costs. The fees collected from my first two courses barely covered my expenses for range rental, targets, and supplies.

Now, since IDPA Canada appears to require NFA membership isn't IDPA just a 'cash grab' for NFA then?? :runaway:

It is wonderful that IDPA can provide *free training, but as we've discussed, it's not equivalent to the CDP course. It may be better or not, I don't know but either way IDPA does not offer any kind of standard or proof of competency (outside of the qualifier - which is not a safety course).

Most people are safe without training, most people understand that this is a game for adults and involves (slight) risk. But not everyone falls into this category. I wish we didn't need licences to drive, fish or hunt but we have them and for the same reason holster training and certifcates serve a purpose - even if you don't agree with it.

+_+_

p.s. Thanks for the unlock, I do think this is a useful discussion.
 
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Raks

No, IDPA Canada does not require you to have a NFA membership.

You continue to pass along information that isn't true.

NFA does offer IDPA Safety Officers and members a discount on liability inusrance that is good for shoots in Canada and the US. Whether or not you choose to take the insurance is up to the individual. Certainly not mandatory. Just a benefit of joining IDPA.:D

"IDPA membership is open (ages 12 and up) and dosen't require any kind of safety course - this is great - but it dosen't give me any assurance that competitors know what they're doing"

Oh David considering the world wide acceptance of IDPA and it's safety record I am sure the 14,000 members manage to get along quite well using common sense and without your vaunted "Holster Course". From the shoots I have attended my sense is the competitors do indeed know what they are doing.

Smoke and mirrors and scare tactics seems to me to be a strange way to promote your adgenda. Maybe what some of the shooters out in Calgary ought to do is get hold of Dragoon and attend an IDPA shoot, then decide whether or not your course has merit.

Dave run your courses charge what you want and live long. I hope your organiuzation isn't about to begin advocating holster courses be mandated into our PALS nonsense. We have enough barriors to participation in our shooting sports now.

Take Care

Bob
 
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My name is Rob, not David. :wave:

I live in Winnipeg as it says in my avatar.

I've only been relating what I've been told from others (who I guess had incorrect information too) or found on the IDPA websites. Many people have offered opinion or misinformation in this thread and I concede that I didn't know much about IDPA Canada before this discussion. As I wrote before I think this thread has explained a lot of things for me.

My only agenda is to clear up misinformation regarding the CDP program and get more people out to shoot. I've always seen this kind of infighting as counter-productive.

If you have a personal beef with Dave Burke you should take it up with him.
 
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raks said:
Canuck44, the CDP course sets a standard that is transferable from club to club, city to city, and so on. To have a system like that, you need an office to keep track of certificates and such - otherwise there's people who will lie or forge credentials.

So is IDPA, and it's availible to club reps on the IDPA web site. It's also tranferable to any club in the WORLD.


If credentials aren't important to you then you won't care about that, but more and more I do. With friends and people I trust I don't need to see 'papers' but as a match director I deal with people I don't know and a certificate (backed up by a recognized association) is the easiest way to show that they know the game and how to be safe.

We are issued classification cards along with our membership cards.

IDPA membership is open (ages 12 and up) and dosen't require any kind of safety course - this is great - but it dosen't give me any assurance that competitors know what they're doing.

The safety course is recommended (it's on page 57 of the rule book) and as R/O's we can physically touch a shooter to prevent an infraction.


To look at the courses as a 'cash grab' is incorrect. Office and training infrastructure costs, that's what you're paying for. In addition, course fees cover instructors costs. The fees collected from my first two courses barely covered my expenses for range rental, targets, and supplies.

Our memberships pay for all of that.

Now, since IDPA Canada appears to require NFA membership isn't IDPA just a 'cash grab' for NFA then?? :runaway:

That was a mistake that's been rectified.

It is wonderful that IDPA can provide *free training, but as we've discussed, it's not equivalent to the CDP course. It may be better or not, I don't know but either way IDPA does not offer any kind of standard or proof of competency (outside of the qualifier - which is not a safety course).

Can you cite NOT EQUIVALENT to the CDP course?


Most people are safe without training, most people understand that this is a game for adults and involves (slight) risk. But not everyone falls into this category. I wish we didn't need licences to drive, fish or hunt but we have them and for the same reason holster training and certifcates serve a purpose - even if you don't agree with it.

Partly true but a certificate saying that holster training serves the purpose is utter BS!

+_+_

p.s. Thanks for the unlock, I do think this is a useful discussion.
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You're welcome.
 
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In addition, course fees cover instructors costs. The fees collected from my first two courses barely covered my expenses for range rental, targets, and supplies.

Our memberships pay for all of that
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Do you mean IDPA memberships or CSSA?? As far as I know IDPA dosen't have a political wing so all money they collect is for the sport - (if this is untrue, please oh Guru's correct me). CSSA is very different from IDPA inc.

Training courses account for a very small part of CSSA's income (Annual report 2006) and the association spent 18% more on training then was collected.

If training fees are so blasphemous then come to an AGM and get it on the agenda. CSSA is an open, democratic Canadian non-profit. :canadaFlag:

Can you cite NOT EQUIVALENT to the CDP course?
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I haven't taken the IDPA training so I cannot speak from experience. However it has been agreed in this thread that the CDP course is different from the IDPA course (at the very least in sense that it is a holster course) and so it seems to me that it can't be equivalent - it sounds as though it's similar, but not the same.

In the end It dosen't matter if one believes in holster courses or not. I don't think they are necessary - but some people feel that they are. You don't have to believe in Iceland, BUT IT STILL EXISTS!!

Would I feel safe beside an IDPA trained shooter? Ultimately that depends on their actions.

To try and clear any lingering confusion, understand that these words are my own, I am a member of CSSA but I'm not here to officially speak for the org.

Once again this is an open invite to all safe shooters to check out our MDPL matches. We have fun and there are few arguments.

:cheers:

--Rob a.k.S
 
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Canuck44 said:
No, IDPA Canada does not require you to have a NFA membership.

You continue to pass along information that isn't true.

NFA does offer IDPA Safety Officers and members a discount on liability inusrance that is good for shoots in Canada and the US. Whether or not you choose to take the insurance is up to the individual. Certainly not mandatory. Just a benefit of joining IDPA.:D

"IDPA membership is open (ages 12 and up) and dosen't require any kind of safety course - this is great - but it dosen't give me any assurance that competitors know what they're doing"

Oh David considering the world wide acceptance of IDPA and it's safety record I am sure the 14,000 members manage to get along quite well using common sense and without your vaunted "Holster Course". From the shoots I have attended my sense is the competitors do indeed know what they are doing.

Smoke and mirrors and scare tactics seems to me to be a strange way to promote your adgenda. Maybe what some of the shooters out in Calgary ought to do is get hold of Dragoon and attend an IDPA shoot, then decide whether or not your course has merit.

Dave run your courses charge what you want and live long. I hope your organiuzation isn't about to begin advocating holster courses be mandated into our PALS nonsense. We have enough barriors to participation in our shooting sports now.

Take Care

Bob
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It is clear you are refering to me when you say "David", just to bad that is clearly not my name.

One thing you should really being telling us and posting here is that, for the most part IDPA is in the US and was a sport that was originally created for those who carry concealed and already have quite a bit of experience carrying a handgun and being proficient with it, not for a person who is brand new to the club and has never in their life owned a handgun let alone shot one, we have several members like that. Again are you telling me that you think it is ok to just allow a brand new shooter to come out, holster up a handgun and shoot a match?

On the smoke and mirrors issue, I am not really sure what you mean by that and more so on the agenda issue, what agenda are you spekaing of since you seem to know and I do not? If I have an agenda, it is to offer a safe a fun shooting league at my club.

The other thing I would like to say is, it is not my course, it is a course that is approved by the CFO through the CSSA that we must teach to particiapte in CDP and do so, so that we can infact shoot this.

To be prefectly honest, I find you a very insulting person, not only are you insulting me with your sublte insults, but you are also insulting all of those who have chosen to take and shoot CDP with your presonal feelings and comment torwards it.

I as well as a few others have said it already, if you do not like it, do not shoot it, we like it and we shoot it as do many others in Canada. Once and for all, what is your issue with CDP, what is with your hostility towards this.

Is it no true that IDPA could not be shot in Ontario until the became involved with an organization like the CSSA or NFA, or any other organization that would sponsor them, with the NFA being that one in the end?
 
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Canuck44,

Answer this:

The almost 100 shooters I have taught the CDP course to, over 30 of those at my club alone, and the regualar 20-30 shooters who attend my club every other Thursday for a match, and the 28 shooters who attened this past Thursday night for a skills enhancment night, are they blind to the "smoke and mirrors, scare tactics and promotion of MY agenda", that you seem to be so aware of?
 
Steve David said:
One thing you should really being telling us and posting here is that, for the most part IDPA is in the US and was a sport that was originally created for those who carry concealed and already have quite a bit of experience carrying a handgun and being proficient with it, not for a person who is brand new to the club and has never in their life owned a handgun let alone shot one, we have several members like that. Again are you telling me that you think it is ok to just allow a brand new shooter to come out, holster up a handgun and shoot a match?
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Actually I believe that they do try to attract novice shooter that have bought a handgun for concealed carry. They are not necessarily target shooters like we are.

From the first page of the current rule book:

One of the unique facets of this sport is that it is geared toward the new or average shooter, yet is fun, challenging and rewarding for the experienced shooter.​

This would be a good idea. Someone who has little experience, but has a gun for protection, is encouraged to train with it.
 
Rudy H said:
Actually I believe that they do try to attract novice shooter that have bought a handgun for concealed carry. They are not necessarily target shooters like we are.

From the first page of the current rule book:

One of the unique facets of this sport is that it is geared toward the new or average shooter, yet is fun, challenging and rewarding for the experienced shooter.​

This would be a good idea. Someone who has little experience, but has a gun for protection, is encouraged to train with it.
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True, but on the flip side, we do not buy guns to protect ourselves! Once again, the bottom line is to have fun. As I have explained several time already, we have not had one complaint or issue about the training course and that includes shooters from other disciplines, IPSC, PPC and police officers, who are already permitted to shoot with us, they have still chosen to take the course.
 
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