IDPA gun of choice?

as an SO i like if the competitor gives me the empty mag to hold for their shoot then has me hand it to them for hammer down

then i know its an empty mag being put in and im at ease
 
The onus to prove the gun came that way from the factory lies with the competitor not the MD. If the MD is satisfied the gun has been altered a FTDR or DQ will be issued.

I would be surprised to learn the S&W exported guns to Canada without the mag disconnect but if it becomes an issue I will contact S&W.

Take Care

Bob
 
ohhh... a $400 trophy, I would be imbaressed to brag about if I won it by cheating or circumventing the rules.

beltfed, you just don't get it eh.... if the person is trying to cheat by removing the mag safety which really does nothing accuracy or speed wise for the gun then they obviously have bigger issue's.... I would have no problem what so ever at a sanctioned match questioning their equipment if they are shooting an M&P without a mag safety (and which there is no warning on the slide).

same deal goes with a highpower.... or a 1911 with a pinned grip safety, or so on and so on, there is no question that the line is clearly drawn in the rule book and it is very definate in wording that NO safety device will be removed.

whats hard to understand about that, ???
 
heavenIsAlie said:
as an SO i like if the competitor gives me the empty mag to hold for their shoot then has me hand it to them for hammer down

then i know its an empty mag being put in and im at ease
Click to expand...

art our club practice nights we have adopted the policy of the magazine does not have to be "empty"....

realistically they are inserting the magazine into a gun which you have verified is unloaded and the slide has been lowered on an empty chamber.... it makes no difference safety wise what they insert, as long as the slide is not cycled again.

but back to bed... sleeping in shifts right now...
 
Westicle said:
art our club practice nights we have adopted the policy of the magazine does not have to be "empty"....

realistically they are inserting the magazine into a gun which you have verified is unloaded and the slide has been lowered on an empty chamber.... it makes no difference safety wise what they insert, as long as the slide is not cycled again.

but back to bed... sleeping in shifts right now...
Click to expand...

yea that is fine for practice nights where you all know each other well and shoot with each other all the time so you trust each other. but at a match with a random group of people? that is a different ball game.
 
ajayofcanada

Whether they do or don't is not the issue here. You can't remove safety devices from your gun and be legal for IDPA. It is as simple as that and no more complicated.

'yea that is fine for practice nights where you all know each other well and shoot with each other all the time so you trust each other. but at a match with a random group of people? that is a different ball game.'

No it isn't. It is exactly the same game. The SO checks to ensure the chamber is empty. The slide is closed on an empty chamber . A magazine is inserted (Empty or full), and the trigger is pulled while the gun is pointed down range. The mag is removed. The gun is holstered.

Take Care

Bob
 
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"i still wouldnt want to do it with people i dont know. the people i know, they could walk around hot and it wouldnt bug me"

Safety is the only issue here. It is the responsibility of the SO to ensure the shooter leaves the stage with an empty gun for the safety of all competitors. At sanctioned matches all IDPA ranges are designated cold ranges.

Take Care

Bob
 
so what your saying is it is not a problem with the method but the people doing it...

well let me ask you this, what if the competitor does not have a spare empty magazine, then what are you goign to do ??

allow the shooter to holster the gun while they then unload a partial magazine to satisfy you ??? and then unholster it to insert the magazine and hammer down ??

it makes much more sense to do it the way my club is doing it, it is not a safety violation in any sense as you have confirmed the pistol is empty and the slide is down on an empty chamber.... the only time this method could screw up is if the SO screws up....
 
As far as walking around on the range hot, in my opinion, you better have a good hand full of SO's watching. I see no real reason to allow all the shooters to be hot at all times, this is opening a huge can of worms and is a potential for disaster.

As for mag safeties, in the case of the M&P, again in my opinion, this is something that HQ should look at changing. I am not sure why it is S&W puts these in and now that you can order the M&P with out one, it should be done away with, as is the case with the Hi-Power, there was one model of the Hi-Power made under the Nazi occupation that did not have it in there, it is the only Hi-Power allowed without a mag-safety, but these are the rules, and until they are changed, I will continue to follow them even on a practice night.
 
"Magazine safeties" don't add safety

Westicle said:
art our club practice nights we have adopted the policy of the magazine does not have to be "empty"....

realistically they are inserting the magazine into a gun which you have verified is unloaded and the slide has been lowered on an empty chamber.... it makes no difference safety wise what they insert, as long as the slide is not cycled again.
Click to expand...

This is a perfect example of how the entire premise of the "magazine safety" adding any safety value is bogus.

I'm not the least bit surprised that the pain-in-the-ass magazine disconnect directly results in a rationalized, somewhat-reasoned, decision to show clear and prove unloaded status - with a loaded magazine.

"Magazine safeties" are inherently dangerous; this is just but one example.
 
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The method of confirming the gun is empty provides no safety issues at all and is utilized in IDPA and IPSC to complete the holstering of competitors with guns having mag disconnects.

IDPA has a rule that states clearly that you cannot disable safety devices on the gun. That is not going to change.

The mag disconnect is there for a reason. The M&P is a duty pistol. By releasing the mag the gun becomes inoperative. There are documented cases where officers have saved their lives by releasing the mag in scuffles with BG's and where their gun fell into the BG's hands. That is why it is there.

The competitor must ensure the slide is down before the magazine is inserted into the gun. If, and it has happened to me twice, the competitor rushes the show clear and inserts the magazine before the slide is down the gun is going to go bang into the berm and the competitor is going to be disqualified.

How does it happen. The competitor simply simply rushes the process on his own and it can happen when you least excpect it. Be prepared to yell STOP, the moment you run into a competitor who wants to get ahead of your commands and start the process all over again and go very slowly.

HQ is certainly aware of your concerns with regards to the mag disconnect. Unfortunately as long as it is considered a safety device its removal will not be allowed.

The issue of hot or cold ranges is left to each club to set their own rules. As I stated earlier all IDPA sanctioned events must be cold ranges to remain a sanctioned event.

Take Care

Bob
 
Westicle said:
beltfed, you just don't get it eh.... if the person is trying to cheat by removing the mag safety which really does nothing accuracy or speed wise for the gun then they obviously have bigger issue's.... I would have no problem what so ever at a sanctioned match questioning their equipment if they are shooting an M&P without a mag safety (and which there is no warning on the slide).

same deal goes with a highpower.... or a 1911 with a pinned grip safety, or so on and so on, there is no question that the line is clearly drawn in the rule book and it is very definate in wording that NO safety device will be removed.

whats hard to understand about that, ???
Click to expand...

Oh, I 'get it' - of that you should have no doubt...
You either didn't read my statements or you don't understand them.
Let me break it down for you:

1) Not all M&Ps nor Hi-powers come with a mag safety. From the factory.
2) The warning on the slide of the M&P is not a give-away that it came from the factory with or without a mag safety.
3) You should not disqualify someone because you 'think' they are curcumventing the rules -you need to be sure (I'm pretty sure this was dicussed in your S.O. course...).
 
beltfed said:
Oh, I 'get it' - of that you should have no doubt...
You either didn't read my statements or you don't understand them.
Let me break it down for you:

1) Not all M&Ps nor Hi-powers come with a mag safety. From the factory.
2) The warning on the slide of the M&P is not a give-away that it came from the factory with or without a mag safety.
3) You should not disqualify someone because you 'think' they are curcumventing the rules -you need to be sure (I'm pretty sure this was dicussed in your S.O. course...).
Click to expand...

1 and 3 are correct
#2 is not
If the factory shipped a M&P without a mag safety it WILL have the legal disclaimer on the slide.. This is true for most if not all of the current crop of US factory pistols.
 
beltfed said:
3) You should not disqualify someone because you 'think' they are curcumventing the rules -you need to be sure (I'm pretty sure this was dicussed in your S.O. course...).
Click to expand...

see I don't need to be sure of anything.... all I need to do is call to match director over and let him rule on it.... plain and simple.

I could really care less if someone has or has not removed the parts personally, but for the sport I will have no qulams enforcing the rules.

it is not up to me to be sure, it is up to the competitor to be sure he is playing within the rules, I believe that is the main difference between IDPA and IPSC.... people who shoot IDPA are not tryingto break the rules, theyare looking for ways to stay within them (famous quote from some dork I know ;) )

frankly if the competitor can not provide proof that the pistol came without then frankly I vote DQ....
 
Wendall

This might be of interest to you and others shooting the M&P. Todd Green is a wel respected firearms instructor and has done testing for S&W. Here are his comments regarding the mag disconnect. All might note that the M&P trigger pull is not affected by the mag disconnect.




"Gun grabs -- Smith has a mountain of testimonials from police officers whose lives were saved because, while wrestling over their sidearm, they were able to eject the magazine and disable the pistol. When the BG got the gun, he had nothing but a paperweight. Reality has taught us that sometimes proper weapons retention training and techniques won't be enough. While a BG might be able to figure out how to disengage a safety, odds are he isn't walking around with a spare M&P magazine.

Administrative safety -- One benefit of a SFA pistol is that it's easy to shoot. One disadvantage is that it's easy to shoot accidentally compared to guns with longer and/or heavier trigger pulls. While a lot of gun owners and instructors like to act holier-than-thou and proclaim that they could never make a mistake, I don't consider myself infallible. The ability to deactivate the firing mechanism during administrative handling might sometimes come in handy.

Proper disassembly procedure -- I've seen too many ADs caused by people pulling the trigger to disassemble an "unloaded" gun. Well, with the mag disconnect mechanism, this is all but impossible in an M&P.

There are also some arguments against it:Take

On some guns, a mag disconnect safety can impair the trigger pull. This isn't the case with the M&P.

The oft-cited "ability to shoot in the middle of a reload." Sorry, I've been unable after more than a decade of searching to find a single instance where anyone has had to do this in a fight.

First, most reloads during a fight occur at slidelock ... so there is no shooting possible until you put a fresh mag in the gun.

Second, if you are performing some other reload (by definition, a discretionary reload instead of an immediate action reload) then you should have enough situational awareness that you aren't going to be threatened during that split second it takes to eject a mag and insert a new one.

Third, if you did get surprised in the middle of that moment, your brain isn't going to stop and reverse course ... finish the reload and then finish the fight; firing one shot and then having a gun that needs a new mag and a rack to the slide is going to eat up a lot more time.

It makes dry-firing a pain in the butt. This affects both dry practice as well as the mandatory "unload & show clear" procedure used at IDPA and IPSC matches.

That's a longer explanation than is probably necessary. Basically, I see the advantages (primarily the defense against a gun grab) as outweighing the negatives (particularly the fanciful notion of a mid-reload desperation shot). If I can make the gun a little safer without any loss to practical ability, why not use a mag disconnect? "


Take Care

Bob
 
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bclinehand said:
#2 is not
If the factory shipped a M&P without a mag safety it WILL have the legal disclaimer on the slide.. This is true for most if not all of the current crop of US factory pistols.
Click to expand...

I am not sure about that, I seem to remember many guys on the M&P pistol forum talking about their M&P that came without the disconnect and without the markings.
 
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