IDPA - holster certification question

[Onagoth]

That makes no sense......would you hand someone your car keys that had no license, and send them off? And until they cause an accident, they don't have to get a license? There are other peoples lives to consider here, not just the one that is in control of the car/firearm!

These shooters are already licensed....thats what their RPAL is. You don't need a holster course at any IDPA match in the states and they have very few accidents...if any.

Holster courses seems to be a Canadian theme, perhaps even more emphasized in Ontario. They don't guarantee safety. I've seen new shooters go through a stage with zero concerns whatsoever. I've seen experience shooters sweep everyone on the range.

In reality, a shooter can be taught some of the fundamental safety aspects about action shooting in a 20min session at any club night.

You're right about there being other people's safety at risk, that is why the SO is standing right over them when they shoot.

 

[7.62mm]

These shooters are already licensed....thats what their RPAL is. You don't need a holster course at any IDPA match in the states and they have very few accidents...if any.

And you know as well as I do, that it is completely lacking in any kind of practical firearm use! A PAL/RPAL that is.

I've seen new shooters go through a stage with zero concerns whatsoever. I've seen experience shooters sweep everyone on the range.

And what if any sanctions were placed on these shooters that swept the crowd?

In reality, a shooter can be taught some of the fundamental safety aspects about action shooting in a 20min session at any club night.

I agree, but there are those exceptional few, that shouldn't have a rubber band gun, those are the ones that need to weeded out before they are allowed to run around with a handgun. Minimizing the risk to others is not too much to ask, I could care less if someone shoots or hurts themselves negligently......but someone else is a totally different kettle of fish!

You're right about there being other people's safety at risk, that is why the SO is standing right over them when they shoot.

So where was the SO when these shooters swept the crowd?

 

[Stevo]

The NSO course doesn't guarantee a shooter is safe, it merely states they completed the course. There is no pass/fail to my knowledge.

Really?

 

[cbabes]

Thanks for explaining your viewpoint.

Curious as to why you removed the negligence comment from this post?

 

[Stevo]

Curious as to why you removed the negligence comment from this post?

Because after posting my original I thought better of getting into the "accidental discharge" vs. "negligent discharge" argument in a thread that was already off on a tangent.

FWIW, I don't believe in "accidental discharges", unless a otherwise properly maintained firearm has malfunctioned with no human interaction.

 

[TIM_COX]

Our club has club insurance with CSSA, I'd would hope that is sufficient.

have you ever read your policy, it is a basic liability policy that covers very little and for sure does NOT cover gross negligence.... if an instructor taught the student something (key word here is taught) that caused something or somebody to be injured or killed then the instructor and the CLUB would still be liable UNLESS he can prove that he did not teach that, then the club would also have to prove that they did not endorse the instructor's teaching methodology.

Since IDPA in particular does NOT have proper lesson plans or a proper course layout the instructor has ZERO proof of exactly what he taught when and exposes HIMSELF to liability.... it does not matter if there is PASS/FAIL because you as the instructor have taught the student and instructed him, so you are liable.

Again, ask your insurance people about "errors and ommisions" insurance, and take the time to read the insurance policy from the agency that the CSSA provides, you will be surprized.

At least with black badge there is a mentorship program in place for thier instructors and a valid Instrucor manual with point by point discussion topics and proper lesson plans, the instructor can provide PROOF of what he taught and also provide PROOF of his teaching methodology and also he has his mentor to speak for him and what he was taught to teach.... the same can be said with the CFC PAL/RPAL courses, a mentorship is in place and proper teaching tools are allready made and approved.

so again, review your insurance policy and phone and ask them specifically if it covers an instructor teaching courses.

Also make note that Blackbadge/CFC and all other "instructors" actually have "instructor" status in thier respective groups.... right now the only people certified in IDPA to instruct are the SOI's (and they are only certified to instruct the SO course)... so once again the lawyers can ask "who certified you to instruct to students and what instructor status do you hold"

"but but I am an SO.... " and the question will be asked where in the SO course you learned to teach and where you learned the skills and skillsets to properly instruct and where are your lesson plans and so on....

 

[Quigley]

In reality, a shooter can be taught some of the fundamental safety aspects about action shooting in a 20min session at any club night.

.

They can be shown the fundimentals of safety in one nite...it takes alot longer to actually adopt them. That takes time and practice...

 

[Wendell]

FWIW, I don't believe in "accidental discharges", unless a otherwise properly maintained firearm has malfunctioned with no human interaction.

What do you call it when, during a malfunction clearance or during unloading, an ejector contacts a primer and the result is a bang?

 

[Onagoth]

OMG!....how have we gone this long without a death or accident!

Guys...the sky is not falling.

 

[Onagoth]

And what if any sanctions were placed on these shooters that swept the crowd?

Nothing beyond a DQ IIRC...but accumulated DQs can result in IDPA membership being revoked. I'm sure the sanctions in IPSC are similar?

I agree, but there are those exceptional few, that shouldn't have a rubber band gun, those are the ones that need to weeded out before they are allowed to run around with a handgun. Minimizing the risk to others is not too much to ask, I could care less if someone shoots or hurts themselves negligently......but someone else is a totally different kettle of fish!

A course is a good way to weed them out, but it is quite the burden to deal with for what I consider to be a low percentage of people.

It's not like letting people shoot without a safety course is a huge risk, good stage design should keep the muzzle pointed down range. Minimize the lateral movement for shooters who are new. Start with simple stages and build up as the gun handling skills improve.

So where was the SO when these shooters swept the crowd?

That's a good question. Its tough to blame an SO for a shooter error, but ideally the SO should of been right there on that gun.

 

[Onagoth]

Really?

Really. I'm sure if something really bad happened like an AD or muzzle violation the certificate would be withheld....but I don't know of a time when that's happened.

have you ever read your policy, it is a basic liability policy that covers very little and for sure does NOT cover gross negligence.... if an instructor taught the student something (key word here is taught) that caused something or somebody to be injured or killed then the instructor and the CLUB would still be liable UNLESS he can prove that he did not teach that, then the club would also have to prove that they did not endorse the instructor's teaching methodology.

Since IDPA in particular does NOT have proper lesson plans or a proper course layout the instructor has ZERO proof of exactly what he taught when and exposes HIMSELF to liability.... it does not matter if there is PASS/FAIL because you as the instructor have taught the student and instructed him, so you are liable.

Again, ask your insurance people about "errors and ommisions" insurance, and take the time to read the insurance policy from the agency that the CSSA provides, you will be surprized.

At least with black badge there is a mentorship program in place for thier instructors and a valid Instrucor manual with point by point discussion topics and proper lesson plans, the instructor can provide PROOF of what he taught and also provide PROOF of his teaching methodology and also he has his mentor to speak for him and what he was taught to teach.... the same can be said with the CFC PAL/RPAL courses, a mentorship is in place and proper teaching tools are allready made and approved.

so again, review your insurance policy and phone and ask them specifically if it covers an instructor teaching courses.

Also make note that Blackbadge/CFC and all other "instructors" actually have "instructor" status in thier respective groups.... right now the only people certified in IDPA to instruct are the SOI's (and they are only certified to instruct the SO course)... so once again the lawyers can ask "who certified you to instruct to students and what instructor status do you hold"

"but but I am an SO.... " and the question will be asked where in the SO course you learned to teach and where you learned the skills and skillsets to properly instruct and where are your lesson plans and so on....

While I'm sure some of your points are valid....I'm not sure it would be carried out that way in reality.

Even if by some strange standard the 'instructor' was considered to have taught and certified said individual...its still on a point in time thing. People's skills deteriorate, no reasonable person would expect to hold the 'instructor' responsible for all of time.

But...I'm not a lawyer...I can't say what would happen.

 

[Stevo]

What do you call it when, during a malfunction clearance or during unloading, an ejector contacts a primer and the result is a bang?

I'd call that, "something I've never heard of, ever." What sort of gun has the ejector where the firing pin is supposed to be?

You can play "what if" with all sorts of uncommon scenarios. The overwhelming number are still going to be NDs.

 

[cbabes]

OMG!....how have we gone this long without a death or accident!

Guys...the sky is not falling.

Well with that attitude you should tell your parents to get rid of their fire insurance.

 

[Canuck44]

I'd call that, "something I've never heard of, ever."

Has happend Steve, mostly with the .40cal. I have heard of two incidents. Shooters got a handful of brass and a trip to the hospital. This is one reason why I don't care for the hand over slide method of unloading and show clear. If the cartridge hangs on the extractor and the slide is allowed to move forward the primer can be struck by the ejector hard enough to set off the round. The end result is a shooter with at least a palm full of brass...and yes it has happened.

I have a long time friend in the US who has seen guns go bang without any help from the shooter as well as guns going full auto. AD or ND? Your call.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Onagoth]

Well with that attitude you should tell your parents to get rid of their fire insurance.

I'm might change careers actually...try to sell them even more.

I'll be hitting you all up for more insurance too....I expect your support.

 

[cbabes]

I'm might change careers actually...try to sell them even more.

I'll be hitting you all up for more insurance too....I expect your support.

An insurance salesmen? I would like a better deal than the one I have.

OK now this thread has really gone off topic! Sorry to the OP! I am sure the OP finds it amusing anyway.

 

[Stevo]

Has happend Steve, mostly with the .40cal. I have heard of two incidents. Shooters got a handful of brass and a trip to the hospital. This is one reason why I don't care for the hand over slide method of unloading and show clear. If the cartridge hangs on the extractor and the slide is allowed to move forward the primer can be struck by the ejector hard enough to set off the round. The end result is a shooter with at least a palm full of brass...and yes it has happened.

I have a long time friend in the US who has seen guns go bang without any help from the shooter as well as guns going full auto. AD or ND? Your call.

Take Care

Bob

Bizarre. One particular type of pistol? That would pretty much have to go in the AD category.

A gun going full-auto probably has something to do with (lack of) maintenance or user "tuning". If that's the case, ND.

 

[beltfed]

Also make note that Blackbadge/CFC and all other "instructors" actually have "instructor" status in thier respective groups.... right now the only people certified in IDPA to instruct are the SOI's (and they are only certified to instruct the SO course)

SOIs are appointed and have no formal training / certification in IDPA beyond the SO courses they took..

 

[7.62mm]

Nothing beyond a DQ IIRC...but accumulated DQs can result in IDPA membership being revoked. I'm sure the sanctions in IPSC are similar?

A membership is not a requirement to participate in IDPA shoots as far as I know......so where is the accountability/sanctioning.

IPSC I believe, if you are DQ'd 2 times in the course of a year, you must retake the BB Course, before you participate in another match.....after that I am not sure, but will look it up!

A course is a good way to weed them out, but it is quite the burden to deal with for what I consider to be a low percentage of people.

A one weekend course is too much of a burden? I have taken a few different courses outside of the Black Badge course, and the one underlying theme in all of them is safety, and safe gun handling.....I don't see how safety can't be stressed enough!!

All I am promoting/arguing for is a baseline for a safety standard, so everyone is on the same page.

It's not like letting people shoot without a safety course is a huge risk, good stage design should keep the muzzle pointed down range. Minimize the lateral movement for shooters who are new. Start with simple stages and build up as the gun handling skills improve.

So now course design should be limited to the lowest common denominator....how will you know when a new shooter is planning on showing up at a match?

 

[Canuck44]

They do have to provide a shooting resume which I vet before approving their status to HQ. To date all have been experienced shooters with either a Military/LEO or Civilian shooting background. Some are employed professionally as shooting instructors or involved in the firearms industry. Most have had formal training in facilitating group training classes. All are capable of presenting the SO Course, New Shooters Orientation Course and it's holster portion.

The list of SOI's is reviewed annually by myself. Based upon Area Contact/Club Contact Information inactive Instructors are and will be deleted so too those not wishing to continue as SOI's.

The appointment of new SOI's is primarily based upon need followed by receipt of names of qualified candidates.

Any suggestion that they are not capable of teaching the fundamentals of drawing a pistol out of a holster safely is just nonsense. So to is the notion that somehow down the road they would be liable because a shooter days, months or years later manages to shoot himself in the a$$ when he draws his gun and pulls the trigger is equally nonsensical. If anyone can find a case in Canada where an instructor was found liable for a shooter doing so I am all ears.

Take Care

Bob