Yeah you certainly sound like the reasonable one, insulting people making vague accusations and claiming to be some all knowing expert who is above the established rules of the game. I bet lots of people will listen to you.
IDPA-POCO-Members [UPDATED-PROPOSAL TURNED DOWN FOR 3RD YEAR IN A ROW. SEE POST#285]
- Thread starter OEM
- Start date
Gee, Slavex, and here I thought I was the one being insulted ! You're at least doing a good job of carrying on the tradition ! And here I was AGREEING with you ! Silly me.
I've just seen it all before , many times , but if you don't want to be a "Lightbringer" , whoever you may be hiding behind your name, and want to keep insulting me , rather than being slightly educational with YOUR experience , go right ahead, I couldn't care less about your opinion .
As to "vague accusations" guess you don't understand the word 'slander' , do you ?
To quote 'Easyrider604' if I may, "Slavex, I wish you knew how things are really handled by some POCO EC/Board Members. Then your point of view may change. If you knew what I know now... you will be outraged. "
I DO know, and have for a long time, but if you'd rather not educate yourself to the outrage and just keep 'sniping' at me, you just go right ahead.
I am fairly new to this board, but it seems that the tradition of "Keyboard Warriors" crosses many boundaries.
All I can say is this: Grow up.
You can all have your say and get your point across without insulting anyone. If you can't, well then ... perhaps you do not have a valid point to begin with.
If you want to be treated as an adult, act like an adult.
My Two Cents!
Have a good day everyone and try and play nice! Please?!
All I can say is this: Grow up.
You can all have your say and get your point across without insulting anyone. If you can't, well then ... perhaps you do not have a valid point to begin with.
If you want to be treated as an adult, act like an adult.
My Two Cents!
Have a good day everyone and try and play nice! Please?!
- Location
- Prince George B.C.
Welll.....actually we know Slavex.....many of us have shot with him and seen him shoot. Many here have been taught to shoot by him.
We are very familiar with his work and contributions to the sports.... he's not hiding -or if he is hiding he is doing a crappy job.
You on the other hand are 9 posts in and counting and a total unknown???
Who are you......???????????????
John
For ****'s sake.
All i wanted was IDPA in Poco.
Instead I have this entire league of BS to waddle through due to people and their high assed horses and more drama than a monday morning Maury show.
If I wanted this much BS, ego and general tomfukery, I would have joined an airsoft group.
So the basic gist is a bunch of ultra conservative never change nothing new we dont want its say NO, and basially tear down the petition, and throw us out the door?
I get the feeling this is going down the wrong path regardless of who is right, which is kind of sad really.
All i wanted was IDPA in Poco.
Instead I have this entire league of BS to waddle through due to people and their high assed horses and more drama than a monday morning Maury show.
If I wanted this much BS, ego and general tomfukery, I would have joined an airsoft group.
So the basic gist is a bunch of ultra conservative never change nothing new we dont want its say NO, and basially tear down the petition, and throw us out the door?
I get the feeling this is going down the wrong path regardless of who is right, which is kind of sad really.
Jeez, the 'attention span' on this forum is sorely lacking, John, try going back a few pages and you'll maybe know "who" I am, OR , if in your post you substitute the word 'Slavex' with Drew you'd pretty much 'nail it', just some years earlier. If you want more of a resumé, I'll PM you one, but that's not what this forum is about, it's about advancing shooting sports, without 'stagnating' them in bureaucracy and insults, we get enough of that from the governments.
Admittedly, I've never been to Kitimat, and as previously mentioned, had issues that have physically and financially kept me out of competition for a while..... but I've "been there, and done that" and haven't needed 4 years and 1,070 'posts' to know more history of this sport than apparently many others on this forum.
In that history, IPSC went through EXACTLY the same problems that IDPA is, in practically EVERY club. The way IPSC solved it was basically to 'take over' the Executive Board of all those clubs, including POCO and TMSA, which should really not be necessary. Now, those same people are treating the IDPA the same way THEY were treated, which to me seems totally ludicrous.
Maybe those who keep 'throwing shots' my way are just too young to remember all these silly games that were played previously, and apparently by 'tearing down petitions', still ARE being played... history repeating, why bother.
I agree with 'Astryx', grow up, act like an adult, and let's play nice, I just want to SHOOT, without all the B.S.
I must apologise though if I've never heard of anybody who was christened 'Slavex' or 'Lightbringer', even in abbreviation, John, yes, many, just as many here know, to paraphrase you, 'who I am', and that is Drew, that's my name, like it says, Drew.
Admittedly, I've never been to Kitimat, and as previously mentioned, had issues that have physically and financially kept me out of competition for a while..... but I've "been there, and done that" and haven't needed 4 years and 1,070 'posts' to know more history of this sport than apparently many others on this forum.
In that history, IPSC went through EXACTLY the same problems that IDPA is, in practically EVERY club. The way IPSC solved it was basically to 'take over' the Executive Board of all those clubs, including POCO and TMSA, which should really not be necessary. Now, those same people are treating the IDPA the same way THEY were treated, which to me seems totally ludicrous.
Maybe those who keep 'throwing shots' my way are just too young to remember all these silly games that were played previously, and apparently by 'tearing down petitions', still ARE being played... history repeating, why bother.
I agree with 'Astryx', grow up, act like an adult, and let's play nice, I just want to SHOOT, without all the B.S.
I must apologise though if I've never heard of anybody who was christened 'Slavex' or 'Lightbringer', even in abbreviation, John, yes, many, just as many here know, to paraphrase you, 'who I am', and that is Drew, that's my name, like it says, Drew.
- Location
- Prince George B.C.
Yeah I read the thread. As I understand it you were 'it' in IPSC back in the day and you invented IDPA.
Cool....
So how does beating your chest now and accusing people of hiding behind usernames aid the goal of helping to establish IDPA in PoCo????
John
Cool....
So how does beating your chest now and accusing people of hiding behind usernames aid the goal of helping to establish IDPA in PoCo????
John
OK, here is my last post in this thread. I am a EC board member at the club and I shoot neither of IPSC, IDPA, PPC or any of the other alphabet soup of action shooting games so I am about as unbiased as can be on the issue. I do firmly believe that a club, any club, needs to be responsive to its members and should make every reasonable effort to accommodate all lawful, recognized, shooting activities providing that they are administered safely - this is my starting point whenever considering a matter like this.
When first apprised of this issue I commenced a process of due diligence and some of the people who have posted on this thread have corresponded with me to assist me in my determination of the matters at hand. I have also read a lot about the issue and have spoken in person with others - both in favor of and opposed to IDPA - in order to help understand the subject.
Now to the purpose of this post : In my view re-hashing old issues, fighting old battles, trading insults and general '#####ing' will do nothing whatsoever to advance an issue. If people are unhappy with a board's decision or just generally unhappy with a board there is a process for addressing concerns and the process is called "getting away from the keyboard and showing up in person at an AGM and voting". So guys, please, put the BS away and try and type something constructive.
Bob.
When first apprised of this issue I commenced a process of due diligence and some of the people who have posted on this thread have corresponded with me to assist me in my determination of the matters at hand. I have also read a lot about the issue and have spoken in person with others - both in favor of and opposed to IDPA - in order to help understand the subject.
Now to the purpose of this post : In my view re-hashing old issues, fighting old battles, trading insults and general '#####ing' will do nothing whatsoever to advance an issue. If people are unhappy with a board's decision or just generally unhappy with a board there is a process for addressing concerns and the process is called "getting away from the keyboard and showing up in person at an AGM and voting". So guys, please, put the BS away and try and type something constructive.
Bob.
I realize this is meant to be your last post in the thread but can I ask if you have any information you can share in regards to the question of how booked up the range time is?
I mean are there legitimate grounds to refuse entry to another shooting sport there simply because there is not enough range time/space available, as we are hearing from one "side", or would you say that there is sufficient space, and that persistence and possibly a different tack taken with the board by IDPA proponents might pay off?
Drew, now that was a better post. I started shooting IPSC after you stopped. Currently I am president at Abby Fish and Game. I am very aware about how things work at Exec levels in clubs including Poco. Politics at clubs is never fun, IDPA is going to have to learn to play the game if they want into Poco.
I agree with you. What happened in the past should stay in the past.
I just want to shoot IDPA in Poco instead of driving 90 k each way. IDPA is the issue not someone's old gripes.
Please don't let that cloud the issue, everyone!!!!!! Let's concentrate on the real thing at hand that there are members of the BOD with reasons to refuse to include an additional internationally sanctioned shooting sport.
I note there is an answer of not having sufficient range time. But I also note on the contrary.
Let's see the facts and settle the matter. It should be a right or wrong issue and not a like or dislike one.
We all have personal preferences but common members' voice should mean something to the EC. Afterall they were elected by the members and owe a duty to look after their interests.
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Here is how I see the situation;
Those in favour of IDPA feel that:
There are many members of the club that want to participate in IDPA
IDPA would attract more shooters to the sport and to the club
Having IDPA at Poco would save local members having to drive to Chilliwack
IDPA is less expensive to get into than IPSC
Those opposed are concerned that:
IDPA would cut into other members range time
IDPA would create a negative image for the club i.e. self defence training as opposed to a sporting club
Both sides have legitimate points. In order for us to get IDPA at Poco we will have to address the opposition’s two main concerns, namely range time and image.
In terms of range time I know you have shown that there is time available but maybe we could go further and offer to arrange events on low use times such as week days.
In terms of image/public relations we should move away from the self defence angle and promote the sport another way, for example as a way for people that cannot afford IPSC yet to start with handgun shooting. We could also offer not to use human shaped targets if that is feasible within the IDPA rules.
If we compromise and use this approach then I think we stand the best chance of getting IDPA at Poco. If the BOD still refuses us then I think they are being unreasonable or may be making the decision for personal reasons as opposed to the good of the club and its members.
If this is the case then the only way we will institute the changes we want is to work within the system as Tomochan says by organising members and attending the AGM and voting.
Those in favour of IDPA feel that:
There are many members of the club that want to participate in IDPA
IDPA would attract more shooters to the sport and to the club
Having IDPA at Poco would save local members having to drive to Chilliwack
IDPA is less expensive to get into than IPSC
Those opposed are concerned that:
IDPA would cut into other members range time
IDPA would create a negative image for the club i.e. self defence training as opposed to a sporting club
Both sides have legitimate points. In order for us to get IDPA at Poco we will have to address the opposition’s two main concerns, namely range time and image.
In terms of range time I know you have shown that there is time available but maybe we could go further and offer to arrange events on low use times such as week days.
In terms of image/public relations we should move away from the self defence angle and promote the sport another way, for example as a way for people that cannot afford IPSC yet to start with handgun shooting. We could also offer not to use human shaped targets if that is feasible within the IDPA rules.
If we compromise and use this approach then I think we stand the best chance of getting IDPA at Poco. If the BOD still refuses us then I think they are being unreasonable or may be making the decision for personal reasons as opposed to the good of the club and its members.
If this is the case then the only way we will institute the changes we want is to work within the system as Tomochan says by organising members and attending the AGM and voting.
The rules of IDPA are stipulated by the international organization which include the target, scoring, equipment etc. Individual clubs can make suggestions to IDPA Internation for ammendments but cannot abitarily change it on your own. Similarly IPSC would have their own rules. So changing IDPA rules to suit the requirements of Poco is not possible. Afterall it is a internationally recognized shooting sport.
I guess if you want to use image as an issue then there are thousands of clubs around the world with the same image problem. IDPA is popular in all the provinces of Canada. We are not dealing with a few individuals who wants to shoot and use IDPA kinda rules. We are talking about having an official affiliation with IDPA Canada in the lower mainland.
It is not Rottboy and his cronies who wants to shoot IDPA style games. It is Poco being officially affliated with IDPA Canada. Through that IDPA International. This is what Rottboy and his cronies are proposing to the BOD of Poco.
- Location
- Prince George B.C.
There is no "image" problem.
Whatever it's roots back in the day IDPA, as it is shot NOW, is a sport - pure and simple.
Anyone promoting IDPA or wanting to shoot IDPA because they think it will teach them how to be a gunfighter is going to be sorely disappointed.
It is a sport - period.
John
Whatever it's roots back in the day IDPA, as it is shot NOW, is a sport - pure and simple.
Anyone promoting IDPA or wanting to shoot IDPA because they think it will teach them how to be a gunfighter is going to be sorely disappointed.
It is a sport - period.
John
I totally agree with you. The previous post was in response to the comments made by blueskies.
I seem to remember someone mentioning it earlier and blueskies brought it out as one area members might object to IDPA because of perceived image problem.
As you said, it is purely a sport in the amature category. Which means non professional status. IDPA international is the governing body which determines all the applicable rules that include classification of guns, equiptments, targets, distance, scoring etc.
- Location
- Prince George B.C.
E######xxactleeee!! 
John
John
I'm going to offer a couple of thoughts. I am not against IDPA completely, I'm just against it taking up range time on a very busy range. specially if your planning on taking multiple ranges on the weekends and some other concerns and JOHN IN BC has helped with some of this.
it just takes some understanding from both parties.
Now bare with me and don't get angry.
Using a little baseball terminology here, have you thought about getting to first base, rather than batting it out of the ball park. or try this for shooting , fast is slow, slow is fast..
makes sense?
When making a presentation to the board have numbers, stats, thoughts. not hearsay, a presentation saying we want IDPA, and the information is on the internet or IDPA.com and you can find it there ,is not a good start.
bring answers, be prepared, below is just some thoughts that I would have and had at the presentations.
how much are targets? have proof, not hearsay, or I can get a deal, provide some sort of proof. How many do you need to buy for the deal. do you have a sources for small amounts at so much $ till you get established.
How many IDPA numbers in the lower mainland? an answer for the area is better than some vague answer for the country or worldwide, how many do you see at Chilliwack for practice and matches?
What does IDPA represent?
Is there a safety course? let the BOD know that there is a course and give the guidelines, don't expect the board to go research all this, you should bring it to them, you're the one who wants in. IDPA is only one item on a 2 page agenda at a meeting.
How many do you expect at a practice or match? do you provide trophies for your matches? how many based on how many shooters? ( that may seem odd, but for ppl who have put on matches, that's numbers)
how much are you wanting to charge for matches? practice's ? will it cover trophies, targets, tape, prop repair and other costs.
who and how many are willing to spend time on the range repairing stuff, walls, props, steel and work with IPSC to do so.
Is there a system in place to know that someone has passed their safety course? is there someone who has been approved by IDPA to do safety courses that's local or a member of PCDHFC?
How much is it for affiliation with IDPA?
the big question is are you willing to compromise with PCDHFC to get in. (again, first base, not homerun)
Do you need affiliation to shoot IDPA?
Have you thought about coming to PCDHFC with the thought that you could shoot an IDPA style and not be affiliated with IDPA at first, and work with the BOD and one or some of its committees.
have you thought that you might only need one range? range 1 or 3. I'm sure that you could set up multiple stages on 1 or 3 and even 2, pull out some walls and barrels . And this leaves the other ranges open for Range users. that, as it gets hotter you will see more of. This also works great if your only expecting 10 or 20 ppl
If IDPA would have gone for 1st base couple of years ago, they would or could have had the homerun already this year or last.
this alone would help with other clubs, not just PCDHFC.
Insulting the BOD on here is not the way to go, posting a petition on the board at range 7 I think was wrong specially since it was before the meeting this week where they were going to talk about this proposal from IDPA.
It looks like you were trying to beat them with the bat that your trying to get the homerun with.
I see talk about IDPA members getting on the BOD at PCDHFC, go for it, BUT remember, IDPA is only one issue out of thousands that you have to deal with when on the BOD and I hope that you can bring voice and reason to the club for all issues not just IDPA and to all BOD meetings and when on the range you must be available for issues that may arise. I'm sure that anyone who has been on any board of any kind understands this.
OKAY, so I hope you understand what I'm saying, if there's something on here you don't like, don't insult me on it, it is a view.
I in NO way am speaking for the PCDHFC BOD, I'm simply speaking on my thoughts and views as a member, I'm allowing any IDPA member or PCDHFC member that wants to shoot IDPA style events to see my thoughts and what I believe could help you in any club not just PCDHFC.
this is also only one list of questions and thoughts from ONE person, there's 26 BOD members that may and do have different questions and thoughts. you must be prepared for all.
SORRY for all the Baseball terminology, baseball season is starting and was on the news when i started writing this. I in no way watch that boring sport
it just takes some understanding from both parties.
Now bare with me and don't get angry.
Using a little baseball terminology here, have you thought about getting to first base, rather than batting it out of the ball park. or try this for shooting , fast is slow, slow is fast..
makes sense?
When making a presentation to the board have numbers, stats, thoughts. not hearsay, a presentation saying we want IDPA, and the information is on the internet or IDPA.com and you can find it there ,is not a good start.
bring answers, be prepared, below is just some thoughts that I would have and had at the presentations.
how much are targets? have proof, not hearsay, or I can get a deal, provide some sort of proof. How many do you need to buy for the deal. do you have a sources for small amounts at so much $ till you get established.
How many IDPA numbers in the lower mainland? an answer for the area is better than some vague answer for the country or worldwide, how many do you see at Chilliwack for practice and matches?
What does IDPA represent?
Is there a safety course? let the BOD know that there is a course and give the guidelines, don't expect the board to go research all this, you should bring it to them, you're the one who wants in. IDPA is only one item on a 2 page agenda at a meeting.
How many do you expect at a practice or match? do you provide trophies for your matches? how many based on how many shooters? ( that may seem odd, but for ppl who have put on matches, that's numbers)
how much are you wanting to charge for matches? practice's ? will it cover trophies, targets, tape, prop repair and other costs.
who and how many are willing to spend time on the range repairing stuff, walls, props, steel and work with IPSC to do so.
Is there a system in place to know that someone has passed their safety course? is there someone who has been approved by IDPA to do safety courses that's local or a member of PCDHFC?
How much is it for affiliation with IDPA?
the big question is are you willing to compromise with PCDHFC to get in. (again, first base, not homerun)
Do you need affiliation to shoot IDPA?
Have you thought about coming to PCDHFC with the thought that you could shoot an IDPA style and not be affiliated with IDPA at first, and work with the BOD and one or some of its committees.
have you thought that you might only need one range? range 1 or 3. I'm sure that you could set up multiple stages on 1 or 3 and even 2, pull out some walls and barrels . And this leaves the other ranges open for Range users. that, as it gets hotter you will see more of. This also works great if your only expecting 10 or 20 ppl
If IDPA would have gone for 1st base couple of years ago, they would or could have had the homerun already this year or last.
this alone would help with other clubs, not just PCDHFC.
Insulting the BOD on here is not the way to go, posting a petition on the board at range 7 I think was wrong specially since it was before the meeting this week where they were going to talk about this proposal from IDPA.
It looks like you were trying to beat them with the bat that your trying to get the homerun with.
I see talk about IDPA members getting on the BOD at PCDHFC, go for it, BUT remember, IDPA is only one issue out of thousands that you have to deal with when on the BOD and I hope that you can bring voice and reason to the club for all issues not just IDPA and to all BOD meetings and when on the range you must be available for issues that may arise. I'm sure that anyone who has been on any board of any kind understands this.
OKAY, so I hope you understand what I'm saying, if there's something on here you don't like, don't insult me on it, it is a view.
I in NO way am speaking for the PCDHFC BOD, I'm simply speaking on my thoughts and views as a member, I'm allowing any IDPA member or PCDHFC member that wants to shoot IDPA style events to see my thoughts and what I believe could help you in any club not just PCDHFC.
this is also only one list of questions and thoughts from ONE person, there's 26 BOD members that may and do have different questions and thoughts. you must be prepared for all.
SORRY for all the Baseball terminology, baseball season is starting and was on the news when i started writing this. I in no way watch that boring sport
Yes! Something constructive!
Pats, thanks for your thoughts! I'm not speaking for the rest, but quite frankly, this is what I've been waiting to hear from, from the other side.
Without going into detail on who said what...I've been frankly quite confused as to what was required. All I heard were vague "you shouldn't have done this, this and that comments". Yours is the first post that I think will really help the groups get together.
About the petition, we put it up not to bat the BOD with, but to gauge interest in the sport, and hopefully to present actual numbers to the BOD, to avoid the 'hearsay' as you put it. I don't know why the Prez had to take it down.
Anyway, water under the bridge. Lets work together and see if we make something good happen.
Pats, thanks for your thoughts! I'm not speaking for the rest, but quite frankly, this is what I've been waiting to hear from, from the other side.
Without going into detail on who said what...I've been frankly quite confused as to what was required. All I heard were vague "you shouldn't have done this, this and that comments". Yours is the first post that I think will really help the groups get together.
About the petition, we put it up not to bat the BOD with, but to gauge interest in the sport, and hopefully to present actual numbers to the BOD, to avoid the 'hearsay' as you put it. I don't know why the Prez had to take it down.
Anyway, water under the bridge. Lets work together and see if we make something good happen.
- Location
- Prince George B.C.
Pats, nice post
I like the way you think.
I am not privy to the inside scoop at PoCo so I can't speak to the specifics of their approach to the BoD but I would like to offer this perspective.
First, I love multigun ! I would love to see multigun take off. To that end I have put on a few multigun matches on our range in Terrace. So far trying for 2 per year. With the other disciplines shooting here, IDPA and IPSC, open weekends are limited. With that in mind.......baby steps. 2 per year and lets see how it goes.
The analogy to IDPA starting out is not perfect of course. To have a chance of taking off I would expect to see a couple of practice nights per month and hopefully a club match every month or two.....whatever the range will bear. But the point is baby steps
You may wonder why I would even give a crap what happens in PoCo for IDPA...well I will tell you. I have shot there and seen their facilities. Poco has a setup that could easily host a Provincial IDPA match. No question. A National Championship Match would also be a downstream possibility. And....now IDPA has initiated a World Champ match. The facilties I have seen would, IMO, handle any of these matches.
Obviously the income possibilities for the hosting club are bright if this could ever come to pass.
But like Pats says we have to get on 1st base before we can ever dream about a homerun.
Baby steps.......
John
I like the way you think.
I am not privy to the inside scoop at PoCo so I can't speak to the specifics of their approach to the BoD but I would like to offer this perspective.
First, I love multigun ! I would love to see multigun take off. To that end I have put on a few multigun matches on our range in Terrace. So far trying for 2 per year. With the other disciplines shooting here, IDPA and IPSC, open weekends are limited. With that in mind.......baby steps. 2 per year and lets see how it goes.
The analogy to IDPA starting out is not perfect of course. To have a chance of taking off I would expect to see a couple of practice nights per month and hopefully a club match every month or two.....whatever the range will bear. But the point is baby steps
You may wonder why I would even give a crap what happens in PoCo for IDPA...well I will tell you. I have shot there and seen their facilities. Poco has a setup that could easily host a Provincial IDPA match. No question. A National Championship Match would also be a downstream possibility. And....now IDPA has initiated a World Champ match. The facilties I have seen would, IMO, handle any of these matches.
Obviously the income possibilities for the hosting club are bright if this could ever come to pass.
But like Pats says we have to get on 1st base before we can ever dream about a homerun.
Baby steps.......
John
