If caliber is not so important...

How do "premium bullets punch outside their weight category", there's no free lunch, bullets either expand alot and do alot of damage, or don't expand as much and penetrate more, period. The ideal bullet is one that is heavy for caliber(high SD), opens quickly but because of weight stay together for deep penetration.
 
Hi Ben,
Exactly what you say. Open up well and hold together. TSX or Partition or any other good bullet. Saw a lot of animals with early ballistic tips or a target bullet with cup separation. It seems the manufacturers have figured out how to maximize. The phrase about "punching above their category" comes from seeing smaller bullets anchoring game in place in a different way that 20 or 30 years ago. I have a TSX that stopped under the hide of an elk at a lasered 348 yds that looks like the pictures in their advertisements. It took a tunnel the size of a quarter through the vitals. Performed better than expected for a 130 gr 277. The last moose with a 30 cal , 168 TSX left a hole through and through as if folded like a cheap tent. Just observations that good bullets kill faster than others. Or maybe, i am finally learning to put them in the right spot?
 
speed + good bullets

I took this program 1 step further and loaded 150 gn TTSX in my 300 Wby to over 3600 fps (I don't get a lot of loads out of my cases) and took 20 head of game in SA on one trip, including Roan and 2 huge Eland. The kills were spectacular and the penetration unbelieveable. Would never have tried this experiment with anything but a homogenous bullet. Bottom line is, speed adds to penetration if you can count on your bullets to hang together at ridiculous impact velocities. The wound channels were all out porpotion to the caliber, nearly cutting some of the smaller guys in half. Speed also exponentially increases hydrostatic shock and tissue displacement, I was getting bang/flop kills on deer sized animals and that just doesn't happen on African game very often.

PS I also took 40 rds of 200 A frames in case, but didn't need 'em
 
Marketing "Premium Bullits" is what makes many beleive you "need" them. Strange how when manufacturers perform there bullit tests with gellatin they never ever include non-premium loads like Core-Lokt or SST. They don't want you to see the truth of how well "non-premium" bullits compare. They want you to beleive nothing else will compare. IMO smart marketing to sell a more expensive product.
 
c-fbmi said:
I took this program 1 step further and loaded 150 gn TTSX in my 300 Wby to over 3600 fps (I don't get a lot of loads out of my cases) and took 20 head of game in SA on one trip, including Roan and 2 huge Eland. The kills were spectacular and the penetration unbelieveable. Would never have tried this experiment with anything but a homogenous bullet. Bottom line is, speed adds to penetration if you can count on your bullets to hang together at ridiculous impact velocities. The wound channels were all out porpotion to the caliber, nearly cutting some of the smaller guys in half. Speed also exponentially increases hydrostatic shock and tissue displacement, I was getting bang/flop kills on deer sized animals and that just doesn't happen on African game very often.

PS I also took 40 rds of 200 A frames in case, but didn't need 'em
Click to expand...

According to the very thorough tests performed by Michael458 on Accurate Reloading, that statement doesn't hold true:

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/2861098911/p/1


For example:
.338 Win Mag vs .338 RUM

185 TTSX - impact 2872 fps = 11" penetration; 3095 fps = 11"
210 TTSX - impact 2783 fps = 13" penetration; 3095 fps = 11"
250 TSX -impact 2469 fps = 18" penetration; 2640 fps = 17"

I specifically quoted results for the TSX because the retained weights were just about identical, regardless of the impact velocity.
 
The Core-Lokt (sp?) sure are great bullets. Have seen a lot of deer expire due to them. Usually running 50 or 100 yds then collapsing. Very dead, never to move again. If that was all that was available to me, i would load a heavy for caliber version and live happily ever after. However, after being the unfortunate witness to some guided clients have moose and elk go a long way with "average" bullets in what should be a good hit, I have drank the Kool-Aid and will spend an extra $0.50 for what might be a better bullet. Again, poor shot placement will not be made up for with anything short of a heat seeking missile. But after a few years of seeing animals expire near the spot they were hit makes me a believer. An evening in camp with a bullet designer years back did jade my opinion too.
 
penetration

1899 said:
According to the very thorough tests performed by Michael458 on Accurate Reloading, that statement doesn't hold true:

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/2861098911/p/1


For example:
.338 Win Mag vs .338 RUM

185 TTSX - impact 2872 fps = 11" penetration; 3095 fps = 11"
210 TTSX - impact 2783 fps = 13" penetration; 3095 fps = 11"
250 TSX -impact 2469 fps = 18" penetration; 2640 fps = 17"

I specifically quoted results for the TSX because the retained weights were just about identical, regardless of the impact velocity.
Click to expand...

Didn't perform my tests on gelatin, only flesh and bone critters. No gelatin blocks hanging in my trophy room either, can only relate what I observed in the taking of 20 head of game from 10 Kg Suni to 1400 Kg Eland. In my OPINION in over 40 years of hunting and the taking of over a hundred and fifty big game animals, gelatin penetration tests are relative only to gelatin. Real world animals with bone and muscle and organs as well as large voids, react much differently to bullets than does gelatin.
Gelatin has a specific cohesion factor that resists velocity as the square of the increase over base line. (the math is way to long and complex to go into here) . The only gelatin test that has any relative standing is one bullet to another at the SAME velocity, in the SAME caliber, if you intend to extapolate the test to potential penetration on game.

And this is NOT just IMHO
 
c-fbmi said:
Didn't perform my tests on gelatin, only flesh and bone critters. No gelatin blocks hanging in my trophy room either, can only relate what I observed in the taking of 20 head of game from 10 Kg Suni to 1400 Kg Eland. In my OPINION in over 40 years of hunting and the taking of over a hundred and fifty big game animals, gelatin penetration tests are relative only to gelatin. Real world animals with bone and muscle and organs as well as large voids, react much differently to bullets than does gelatin.
Gelatin has a specific cohesion factor that resists velocity as the square of the increase over base line. (the math is way to long and complex to go into here) . The only gelatin test that has any relative standing is one bullet to another at the SAME velocity, in the SAME caliber, if you intend to extapolate the test to potential penetration on game.

And this is NOT just IMHO
Click to expand...

Hmmm ........

Gelatin is gelatin. Game is game. But maximum penetration in any medium for any given expanding bullet comes at less than 2000 fps. After that, increases in velocity for any given bullet in any given medium will result in decreased penetration. And that is not just IMHO.

But, I don't even have a trophy room, so I guess I can't possibly know anything.
 
By now everyone must realize that TSXs are built backwards. Any decent bullet has a longer lead filled nose as weight increases, but in the case of the TSX, the nose cavity is the same depth and volume regardless of bullet weight and the heavier bullet, within caliber, has a longer solid shank. In the tests I've conducted with older X bullets in my .375, the difference in close range terminal performance between the 270 and 300 gr is for all practical purposes identical with respect to wound depth and shape, and the increased velocity of the lighter bullet making up for the greater mass of the heavier. But apparently this is not true for small bores, where a slight difference in bullet weight results in a large difference in SD. In the case of a light TSX compared to a heavy one within caliber, the impact velocity might differ by 700 fps at close range. The difference in wound shape is not a result of the length or volume of the nose cavity, which remains the same, but the speed in which the nose expands, so the wound shape is wider and shallower with the faster bullet impact, despite the frontal area being the same size.
 
ben hunchak said:
The reason they have "premiums" today is because they can sell them.
Click to expand...

I agree but there is more to it than that example in my 375JDJ Contender carbine a bonded core that will expand in soft tissue down to 1800fps .375" .473 BC 260gr Accubond fired @ 2300fps is the only bullet available that will still expand @ 300 yards for me.

Making this a small/light weight/easy packing 300 yard moose/elk/deer/bear capable combo every other .375 cal bullet out there I am limited to a max 200 - 250 yards for reliable expansion.

In my 6.8SPC XCR-L and now 23" T/C Contender the Barnes 95gr Tipped TSX is the only bullet that will reliable expand down to below 1700fps making this a 350 yard capable deer combo.

I still use standard cup and core bullets as well my 308Bellm hunting load is 150gr Rem Core Lok's @ 2620fps killed my biggest mule deer buck ever @ 205 yards with this bullet.
 
rral22 said:
Hmmm ........

Gelatin is gelatin. Game is game. But maximum penetration in any medium for any given expanding bullet comes at less than 2000 fps. After that, increases in velocity for any given bullet in any given medium will result in decreased penetration. And that is not just IMHO.

But, I don't even have a trophy room, so I guess I can't possibly know anything.
Click to expand...

Where is this Rule found, that max penetration IN ANY MEDIUM happens below 2000 fps? That is exactly true of gelatin, which is what I said. My point being from observation, that the new homogenous bullets do not react as the old cup and core did and that increased velocity did in fact increase penetration. I suspect the nose petals were ripped off in the first 2-4 inches of penetration and thereafter we are now dealing with a high velocity solid.
Anyway Gentlemen, just threw out my observations. Didn't wish to become embroiled in the age old debate as to gelatin vs game vs penetration.

To the OP load the 150s as fast as you dare and go kill everything with confidence in that bullet, forget the debate you will get PLENTY of penetration from the 150 TSX or TTSX and you will extend the effective point blank hold of your "06 by more than 100 mtrs.
 
rral22 said:
Hmmm ........

Gelatin is gelatin. Game is game. But maximum penetration in any medium for any given expanding bullet comes at less than 2000 fps. After that, increases in velocity for any given bullet in any given medium will result in decreased penetration. And that is not just IMHO.

But, I don't even have a trophy room, so I guess I can't possibly know anything.
Click to expand...

Where is this Rule found, that max penetration IN ANY MEDIUM happens below 2000 fps? That is exactly true of gelatin, which is what I said. My point being from observation, that the new homogenous bullets do not react as the old cup and core did and that increased velocity did in fact increase penetration. I suspect the nose petals were ripped off in the first 2-4 inches of penetration and thereafter we are now dealing with a high velocity solid.
Anyway Gentlemen, just threw out my observations. Didn't wish to become embroiled in the age old debate as to gelatin vs game vs penetration.
 
Having owned and loaded a 30-06 all my life, allow me to chime in.

For the general purpose hunting, I use the 165 grain bullet. Your post was specific to a 150 and 220.

The 150 will fly faster and straighter than a 220. If we compare the trajectory path of the bullet, the 220 packs much more of a wallop for the same bullet drop. The drop is directly related to yardage, in other words to achieve the same trajectory results, your target has to be closer.

I only use the 220's when I am hunting bear. Everything else is 165.
 
ben hunchak said:
The reason they have "premiums" today is because they can sell them.
Click to expand...

We can agree to disagree then. Deer are one thing, but in want and will always want a "premium" when I shoot elk, moose and bear with any cartridge moving bullets at the muzzle over 3000fps. Inside of 100yds I have found very unreliable penetration with cup and cores and sonhave the rest of the hunting world with more that a squeaker buck a year under their belt.
I like cartridges that move at high velocity so I pay the price, that said I wouldnt hesitate to shoot 180 c&c from my 30-06 at everything.

I also like and recommend the TTSX and TSX as I and many others have four they are the most predictable bullet I have ever shot game with. They are accurate, they expand well down the 1800fps and the penetrate well enough that I have always had two holes.
That is the only bullet I have used that I can say that about. Of course they have marketing gimmick, but name a bullet company gone mainstream that doesn't.
 
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