If caliber is not so important...

[Jordan Smith]

A few of my observations about TSX/TTSX bullets (these observations have been compared with those of many other TSX/TTSX users, including some very famous writers, and have been found to be generally in agreement):

- If they are going too slow to expand, they will usually penetrate very deeply, since there is very little resistance to penetration.

- Once they expand, the faster they go, the deeper they penetrate, and the more violently they expand and affect game

- The only benefit of moving up in weight, is increased penetration. Once you reach sufficient penetration for any shot you are likely to take, there is no need to move to a heavier bullet. In fact, I've found that an increase in velocity does more for me than an increase in weight, both regarding penetration and terminal performance

- You can often drop down 1 to 2 bullet weight classes, and still match (or exceed) the penetration and terminal performance of a C&C bullet. Ex, the .308" 130gr TTSX seems to penetrate as deeply, and do as much damage, as a 165gr C&C bullet

- They excel when they are sent through bone, on their way to other vital body parts

- They tend to destroy less meat than lead-core, fragmenting bullets

- When it comes to TSX/TTSX bullets- the faster, the better!

 

[rral22]

Where is this Rule found, that max penetration IN ANY MEDIUM happens below 2000 fps? That is exactly true of gelatin, which is what I said. My point being from observation, that the new homogenous bullets do not react as the old cup and core did and that increased velocity did in fact increase penetration. I suspect the nose petals were ripped off in the first 2-4 inches of penetration and thereafter we are now dealing with a high velocity solid.
Anyway Gentlemen, just threw out my observations. Didn't wish to become embroiled in the age old debate as to gelatin vs game vs penetration.

Start here http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html

Then go here http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html and read the whole thing.

 

[Demonical]

Don't forget that the TSX 'knows' where it's supposed to go and therefore it's impossible to miss. It will also drill end to end on a bull moose and still has the necessary pentration to kill the other 2 moose standing 100 yards behind that one.

Really, it's not even fair...

 

[ben hunchak]

I agree with Demonical, not only direction but also how much to expand, remarkable.

 

[rem338win]

Don't forget that the TSX 'knows' where it's supposed to go and therefore it's impossible to miss. It will also drill end to end on a bull moose and still has the necessary pentration to kill the other 2 moose standing 100 yards behind that one.

Really, it's not even fair...

I agree with Demonical, not only direction but also how much to expand, remarkable.

Be sarcastic I you like, I have no rifles that my go to load consists of a Barnes currently, nor do I have shares in the company. You two are nearly as bad as the fan boys, just the pendulum has swung to far to the other side.
When an object works well you use it, and if you want performance you pay for it. Same thing goes for whiskey and guns, but maybe your the noname and savage brand kind of guys too. Grab the cheapest thing that works.

 

[Why not?]

But,..... but,... thought nothing cheaper would work.

Ted

 

[rem338win]

But,..... but,... thought nothing cheaper would work.

Ted

You stay out of it Ted. You buy Matrix bullets, but you shoot Marlin bolt guns. Your balanced, I think

 

[rral22]

Be sarcastic I you like, I have no rifles that my go to load consists of a Barnes currently, nor do I have shares in the company. You two are nearly as bad as the fan boys, just the pendulum has swung to far to the other side.
When an object works well you use it, and if you want performance you pay for it. Same thing goes for whiskey and guns, but maybe your the noname and savage brand kind of guys too. Grab the cheapest thing that works.

So, if it works, would you explain how that is a bad idea?

 

[rem338win]

So, if it works, would you explain how that is a bad idea?

You can finish a race with a Kcar, but you'll never win one, and pushing it you'll likely break down a lot.

I never said anything was wrong with stuff that works. I have a problem with people hating an alternative. Read my pendulum comment.

Would you like me to write a summary of my comments on this thread for you, or can you read?

I said I like Cup and Core for what it was intended for, and said that premium bullets have a place, and expounded on my positive experience regarding the TSX and TTSX, which would include at least 20 animals, at ranges from 50yds to 500yds.
I have similar experience with cup and cores and can say the same.
No the application and product and choose and make decisions accordingly. Something odd about that to you?

 

[Why not?]

You stay out of it Ted. You buy Matrix bullets, but you shoot Marlin bolt guns. Your balanced, I think

I think the Leupold scopes are where the balance comes. They cost as much as the rifles.

Ted

 

[rem338win]

I think the Leupold scopes are where the balance comes. They cost as much as the rifles.

Ted

Leupold PFFFFTTT....don't you remember when Bushnell was king of the hill? You shouldn't have changed! You should never change! Change bad!
Darn running water and flushing toilets! Electricity! What was wrong with candles and coal warmers.....

 

[rral22]

You can finish a race with a Kcar, but you'll never win one, and pushing it you'll likely break down a lot.

I never said anything was wrong with stuff that works. I have a problem with people hating an alternative. Read my pendulum comment.

Would you like me to write a summary of my comments on this thread for you, or can you read?

I said I like Cup and Core for what it was intended for, and said that premium bullets have a place, and expounded on my positive experience regarding the TSX and TTSX, which would include at least 20 animals, at ranges from 50yds to 500yds.
I have similar experience with cup and cores and can say the same.
No the application and product and choose and make decisions accordingly. Something odd about that to you?

Well, I prefer to "know" what works and what doesn't. If it works, I use it.

It would just be stupid to expect a Kcar to win if it couldn't. That would mean the Kcar didn't work.

All I'm saying is don't be a snob, and I repeat. If it works, who cares about anything else? It's not that I don't care about alternatives, it's just that I won't pay more for an alternative to something that already works.

Nothing odd about that.

 

[rral22]

Leupold PFFFFTTT....don't you remember when Bushnell was king of the hill? You shouldn't have changed! You should never change! Change bad!
Darn running water and flushing toilets! Electricity! What was wrong with candles and coal warmers.....

Yeah, that's a reasonable counter argument. Sure.

 

[Joep17]

Hmmm. Most of the friends on this forum are here because they have lots of great experience and know what they are doing.

Most of the friends here are trying to fine tune their passion to get that last 0.5% of perfection so they can kick back after a successful hunt and know the last 12 months of thinking, testing, and discussing have made a small difference in their success.

Good luck and good shooting to all in 2012!

 

[rem338win]

Well, I prefer to "know" what works and what doesn't. If it works, I use it.

It would just be stupid to expect a Kcar to win if it couldn't. That would mean the Kcar didn't work.

All I'm saying is don't be a snob, and I repeat. If it works, who cares about anything else? It's not that I don't care about alternatives, it's just that I won't pay more for an alternative to something that already works.

Nothing odd about that.

Yeah, that's a reasonable counter argument. Sure.

Hey man, I say a lot of things tongue in cheek, and Ted can defend himself if he feels like he needs to.

You on the other hand can plain stuff it if you want to call me out as a snob. I have everything from Hot Cors to Bergers to Power Points on my shelf and I use them. If you want to be the "Barnes are stupid cause they cost a buck," guy when you have no reasonable experience with them, then again stuff it cause your pendulum has swung too far the other way. "Works" has many definitions, I think any bullet that made a dead animal "worked". But I want as little meat damage with as much penetration and internal damage as possible, so I want "works better". Play semantics if you want, but you can play alone.

I like pretty much any bullet on deer, and I like cup and cores (most anyway) on everything when the MV starts at around 2800fps. Why? Because they then don't over expand, explode or lose too much weight to sufficiently penetrate. If I am going to fly hotter than that I stuff some sort of premium, and often it is a Barnes, cause often it shoots the tighter group at a good velocity.

If you don't like that, then fine, be emotional about your pocket book, but if you want to call me a snob, then feel free to shut up. If you had read my previous posts as I said, you would have gotten all this anyway.

 

[rem338win]

Hmmm. Most of the friends on this forum are here because they have lots of great experience and know what they are doing.

Most of the friends here are trying to fine tune their passion to get that last 0.5% of perfection so they can kick back after a successful hunt and know the last 12 months of thinking, testing, and discussing have made a small difference in their success.

Good luck and good shooting to all in 2012!

Friends is a little deep, but I'll go with acquaintances that have similar passions.
We probably tinker 60% more than we needed for success but that is a good thing.

Errors are only mistakes when we refuse to recognize or correct them.

-Some Smart Guy

The above quote relates to most of my firearms experience. Thank God for the Greyhairs that speak so I can listen. Even the crotchity old throw backs that think copper jackets are new fangled.

 

[c-fbmi]

rral22

OK I'm going to go through this once again slowly.

When I go to the far ends of the planet and fire hypervelocity cartridges at game from 50 - 600 mtrs and beyond sometimes, and the trophy fees run into the 10s of thousands of dollars. I use the best of whatever is out there because a lost animal is not only a tradgedy, it can be super costly. If I feel that a TSX or TTSX or A-Frame may make even the most minute difference putting the edge in my favor I will use that bullet regardless of cost because to lose is astonomically and exponentially more costly. I realize not all hunters do this sort of hunting, but this sort of hunting is who the premium bullet market is aimed at. I can't/won't afford to use c+c bullets on these hunts because there is better out there. There was a day when c+c bullets were all we had and game was lost, due to bullet failure. But trophy fees were in the hundreds of dollars, or none at all.
Bullet construction is only just now catching up with cartridge design and velocities that have been around since Newton days, thus making our 3500 fps rifles reliable killers from 50-600 mtrs. Rem338win said it in a nutshell rifles that do not exceed 2800 fps muzzle vel do not require anything more than a well made c+c bullet to perform perfectly at the ranges they can be expected to perfom at. However when you add 700 fps to that you are in a whole new league of bullet destroying velocities.
If we all lived by your philosiphy of "if it works leave it alone" we'd all be shooting .303 enfields or 95 Win and c+c bullets would be quite adequate.
I CHOOSE to shoot hypervelocity rifles because I like the added range they give me and the added energy they give me closer in and I for one thank God for the advent of homogenous and other super bullets and I will willingly pay the premium for the improved performance they give, and make no mistake there most certainly is an improvement in performance.
I owe it to the game I hunt to use the appropriate bullet for the cartridge I shoot at them, if velocity dictates c+c bullets I use them but when I'm using one of my hyper rifles on big game guaranteed it's spitting TSX, TTSX, Swift A-Frames or Nos Parts and I for one think it is irresponsible to do otherwise.
My opinion is backed by the taking of more than 150 big game animals on 4 continents over 40 years, with dozens of guns and calibers, it don't come from a book or website or 1/2 dozen whitetail kills. I have taken every thing from Suni at 10Kg to Elephant at 6000Kg and walrus at sea level to Marco Polo at 18,000 ft, polar bear at the very top of the world and sharks off Capetown very nearly at the bottom and spent close to a million dollars doing it. I believe I've earned the right to expound my opinions, observations and experiences a little !!!!
So rral22 I'd like to hear your experience to back up your opinions.

If you wish to see a bunch of pics of some of the critters I've taken go look at "Bucket List" on the "hunting" forum.

 

[woodlotowner]

After retrieving a couple of the best premium bullets I could find (IMO) just under the hide on the opposite side of my deer in past years I was pretty content. So what if the front half had turned to copper/lead shrapnel in the meat and retained bullet mass was about 60%. Apparently it was working. This year I switched exclusively to TSX in my various hunting loads (i.e. various guns for various conditions/days) and, being lucky enough to retrieve the bullet just under the hide of my deer (and this may happen only a few time in a lifetime of hunting as you know), I made the following observations. The bullet had performed in a text book fashion and looked exactly like the examples on CGN's bcsteve's postings and the pictures on the Barnes site. Also, there was no chance of lead in the meat since there is no lead in the bullet and the retained weight was between 99 and 100%. The fully expanded diameter of the Barnes, coupled with its ability to retain weight, is impressive IMO.

Yes they are more expensive than most other 'premium' bullets, but it's all I will ever use for hunting from now on. I do most of my shooting and plinking with the least expensive bullets I can find, but when hunting is involved I develop loads with TSX and keep a box of 20 or so on hand for each rifle we hunt with. Just my opinion on bullet choice. Barnes really does level the caliber playing field I think.

 

[rral22]

Actually, rem338, this season I used Barnes TSX in both my .270 and my .300 in an attempt to find out if there was any reason for me to pay the price. Once spring arrives, I will do my usual testing with wet newsprint and water jugs to see what I find out from that too. This is my second round with Barnes, because I'm old enough to have tried the original Barnes bullets and found (as did many others) I couldn't get them to shoot. The bullets have changed, so I'm experimenting again.

I'm not opposed to technology, but I don't think something is better, simply because it is new, and I do not look down on anyone who decides what he has works as well as what he can now buy. Maybe you're not an equipment "snob" and that was uncalled for, but don't believe for an instant that just because it has been around a while, the new stuff is always superior. That would be snobbish.

I also, c-fbmi, don't go around saying things like "When I go to the far ends of the planet" as if that means I know, or need, something I don't need at this end of the planet. I don't brag about "trophy fees" because I never pay them, or about " taking of more than 150 big game animals on 4 continents over 40 years, with dozens of guns and calibers" and the rest of that irrelevant paragraph, because I haven't, and I don't think what continent you've been to matters when it comes to knowing things about the topic. I don't care about pictures of your dead things, because they prove nothing (although I am a bit jealous of the opportunities you've had).

I don't believe "Bullet construction is only just now catching up with cartridge design and velocities" because I have been using Nosler Partitions since the late 60's, and if you think Partitions don't work very well, you're experience is limited. I don't intend to try to justify my opinions with my age, or with some internet number of dead things I have collected, or by claiming my hunting is "super costly". That is all irrelevant to the question being asked.

Did either of you read the web pages I linked to? Are they useful in this discussion? Any comment on that information?

If this thread is about how to get the most effective bullets for your hunting, what does all this irrelevant bragging, and being critical of people who like "what works" because you've made the mistake of thinking only those who are early adopters of change are intelligent, contribute to the OP's solution?

What relevance does "So rral22 I'd like to hear your experience to back up your opinions." have? Read what I said. If that doesn't make sense, challenge the ideas, the opinions. Personal attacks reveal only your own issues.

 

[AlexF]

Just to add my 0.02$ to this discussion:
For an technical point of vue, both Barnes TSX and Trophy Bonded Tip are superior to the excellent Nosler Partition because of the former's retained weight which is typcally 40% greater than that of the later. This means an 40% higher effective sectional density (SD).

For example:
3000fps impact velocity 165gr TSX gets 70% RW while 165gr Partition gets 50% RW.
1800fps impact velocity 165gr TSX gets 99% RW while 165gr Partition gets 80% RW.

The advantage of the TSX design is better performance at high impact velocities and better performance on larger game while Partition design might be still be the best bullet for some cartridge/game combination.

Alex