If it was 1914...

Ok, we're getting a little off topic now. But, I would bet the jamming was not due to the inherent unsuitability of the rifle, but the out-of-spec ammunition. I don't need to tell you that when a rifle touches off either over-charged or poorly sized ammo, it will explode in internals of the action, thereby jamming the action so that it will not open. I've seen that happen. Perhaps the poison gas did something to the atmosphere that caused jams? And it's further possible the jammed rifles were not as clean as the ones that didn't jam. Smellie quoted a Cpt. Dibblee in a post on this page who said this was a problem in some units. Plus, mud was on EVERYTHING in that war. That's hardly conclusive evidence.

This still doesn't change the fact that no one since has been able to duplicate the jam-ups. Nor does it change the fact that switching rifles was a POLITICAL move.

I've read about the SMLE and the problems they had with the gas I can't remember off the top of my head where from,(either the letter from Sam Hughes or something to do with the Durham Light Infantry...) but it was something to the effect of having to use the bayonet to pry the bolt open as the chlorine gas had corrosion or gas deposits made opening and closing the bolt difficult, and that chambering a round had its own set of difficulties.

so there is some food for thought even if it is off topic
 
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Smellie might have more information but the chambers of the Enfield rifles and possibly the Ross rifles had to be reamed larger to cure feeding and jamming problems early in the war. The British needed to blame someone or something for the out of spec ammunition and the problems they created with ammunition contractors. The British liked "using" Commonwealth troops and blaming them when "their" plans went wrong.

Below is a fired .303 British case resting inside a SAMMI case gauge, the amount the case is sticking above the gauge is how much longer the .303 military chamber was made.

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Below, unfired surplus South African .303 ammunition resting in the gauge .002 below minimum as it should be.

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Thanks for that, H-4831.

I have no doubt that some of the Rosses DID jam; I have encountered several which show evidence of considerable abuse which could only occur when trying to open a solidly-jammed action.

One rifle, when I got it, had a solidly-jammed action WITH a chipped and deformed left-rear locking lug. It was impossible to open manually, required a hammer and block and THEN the actual bolt-sleeve (the body of the Bolt) had to be forged back into shape before repairs could even begin: the bolt Body was actually CURVED and had the cocking-handle sticking out almost 10 degrees from its normal shape. I still have that one, replaced the whole bolt-shank with Head and it works fine.

It IS possible to smash the Ross about so much as to render the rifle completely unusable...... but the problems BEGIN with grossly-oversized ammunition, which had been CONDEMNED for use in the larger Lee-Enfield chamber, being issued for use in the Ross.

With good ammunition, it was a different story entirely. Both men I spoke with concerning the Gas Attack at St. Julien admitted that they "changed rifles" during the fight but, in each case, it was simply to lay down a rifle which was too hot to hold to be reloaded, pick up a cold rifle...... and fire it until it was too hot to touch to be reloaded...... by which time their original rifles had cooled. I know of very few rifles which still are operational when they get THAT hot. From personal experimenting, I can attest that a Kar98k in perfect condition (a new rifle) will bind solid after 35 rounds of SmE when fired rapidly. I have fired 38 rounds in 8 minutes in a match in Ross number DA-426, full-power HXP loads, without a hint of trouble. There were 40 witnesses to this; the fellow I was shooting with fired another 40 out of the Ross he was using, again, no problems. We had to stop shooting because there were no targets left standing: same reason Corporal Courtice and Private McBain stopped shooting..... except that our targets were not shooting back.
 
Whilst this maybe still off topic. It does bring forward views and comments on the Ross rifle which I find really interesting and relevant. The saga of the Ross right from its initial delivery in 1905, through various modifications to WW1 and beyond is full of intrigue, support and critisism from those who used it (prior to and during WW1) a heavy dose of politics on all sides and heroics on the battlefield..There are so many 'what if's' relating to this rifle. 'What if' a licence had been obtained to produce the Lee Enfield in Canada during the early 1900's (as per Lithgow).'What if' Sir Charles Ross had not been so 'well connected' with the establishment (and a good friend of Sam Hughes) 'What if' regular supplies of Dominion Arms MKVII ammunition had been forthcoming and it goes on and on....Rechambering, out of spec .303 ammo, Straight pull bolt Vs bent bolt (leverage) etc.etc.
The story of the Ross rifle has such a rich and varied history...It would have been 'interesting' if the Germans had carried out plans to invade England after Dunkirk. The Ross rifle having been sent from Canada to England, with all due haste, to arm units who's Lee Enfields had been abandoned in France...There's a certain irony in that:)
On another note Smellie....What a privilage it must of been to speak to veterans of that confict and to of had your father there too..I hope you managed to document their stories...I had the pleasure to meet a WW2 veteran today. An artilleryman who served in France as a gunner on a 25 pounder..
 
I think it is fairly clear that Australia has Canada and the Ross Rifle, in part, to thank for being able to turn out their own rifles (and wonderful rifles some of them are!).

At the conclusion of the Boer War, Canada wanted to purchase more modern weapons, the Snider being still the most common military rifle in the country. Particularly, Canada wantd the new Short rifle. Britain said "no". The Canadian Government then approached the BSA Company, then engaged in building the new rifle, for a supply..... and the Colonial Office said "no". But BSA was in the gunmaking business, so Canada offered BSA a factory location and a contract if thay would sat up factory here. Again, the Colonial Office said "no". Canada was to be allowed to have more Sniders (!) or Martini-Henrys, perhaps Martini-Metfords or Martini-Enfields..... but NOT the new Short rifle.

That was when Sir Charles Ross stood up, offered his rifle and offered to build and equip a factory, all out of his own pocket. A trial with an experimental Ross, mostly made by Frank Mossberg, ensued, showing that there was some merit to the Ross idea. A contract to the new Ross Rifle Company ensued, Ross contracted to have initial rifles mostly manufactured in th US and assembled in Canada while the factory was being built and equipped.

The first demonstration of a Ross long-range rifle was at Bisley in 1907, when the rifle shattered almost EVERY standing long-range record...... and it wasn't even competing. Yet. In 1908 and every year until the beginning of the Great War, the Canadian team showed up et Bisley and set record after record after record, some of which my stand yet, even though more than a century old. The British Government was furious (as you can understand), although there was no enmity among the shooters. More Rosses, this time in English hands, started appearing at Bisley. And in 1913, the Ross Rifle came First, Second AND Third in every match in which it was entered while, at the same time, the SMLE was developing a reputation as a difficult beast to manage.

And just about that time, the Aussies decided that, being they were 15,000 miles awey, having their own rifle factory just could be a Very Good Thing.

Point is, Canadians are supposed to be nice people.... and they had set up their own factory and were turning out a world-beating rifle. And everybody, even the Poms at that time, already knew what a hard-headed lot of prickly bastards the Aussies can be, given that you get them riled-up enough. Very, VERY suddenly..... the British Government (likely not wishing to see another Ross Rifle factory, this time in Australia) gave its blessing to the Australian enterprise, offered technical assistance and anything else which might possibly be wished for....... so that Australia could build precisely the SMLE rifle which Canada had been denied. The plant at Lithgow made its first deliveries in 1912.

Two years later, the whole world was at war.

The Ross...... and the Australian plant at Lithgow.... both had come just in the nick of time.

That a concerted effort was made to discredit the Ross Rifle cannot be denied.

That the Ross was removed from Canadian combat duty for all except a few snipers, also, cannot be denied.

That the Royal Marines used the Ross Rifle successfully through TWO World Wars also cannot be denied, but it certainly is not advertised, either.

But the ultimate fate of the Ross was linked too closely to Sir Sam Hughes. Sam had championed the Ross since the first one was built. When the opposition started to the Ross, he had loudly stated that if the Ross were withdrawn, he would resign his post as Minister of Militia.

And Borden wanted Hughes GONE, there is ZERO doubt. Sam was too flamboyant, too outspoken and too HONEST to be tolerated.

And so the Ross Rifle was withdrawn and discredited.

And Sir Sam Hughes, good to his word..... resigned.

And neither one has had more than a few good words spoken or written about them since.

The Ross was dangerous junk and Sir Sam was nuts: that is the Accepted Wisdom.... even though we know better.
 
I don't know much at all about the Ross rifle but I have to wonder if it suffered from the same type problem the M-16 did many years later and if given the same chance if it would have gone on to give the same good service and long service life in spite of the undeserved bad reputation.
 
Very perceptive, RUMPLEHARDT and a good point, I believe.

Problems with the original M-16 very much mirror the Ross tale, although the results were different. In the case of the Ross, a finely-made rifle was issued garbage ammunition and we are still hearing the tales of woe.

In the case of the poor M-16, the rifle was developed by Fairchild ArmaLite but the manufacturing contract was handed to Colt, which had no experience with the advanced production techniques required to build the rifle. But Colt could (and still do) build very precisely-made firearms. The ammunition was another matter. The original ammunition was developed by Remington and loaded with an extruded IMR powder similar to 4198; it was with this ammunition that the rifle passed a most-impressive series of trials. But it was Winchester's turn for a kick at the can, so Winchester was handed the first huge contract to make the 5.56 round..... and they used their patented BALL powder. In particular, some of the ammo was loaded with a batch of Ball powder which re-used old explosive and required a massive amount of flame retardant, some of which was calcium carbonate or something very similar: essentially limestone.

And the troopies had been told that the new rifle never needed to be cleaned.

And the ammunition was exhausting limestone vapour onto the Bolt Head, where it condensed into rock and built up, a bit at a time. And so the legend of Jammin' Jenny was born.

As to expense, the Ross was an expensive rifle to produce, being sold to the Governments of Canada and Newfoundland (the other, forgotten country which officially adopted the Ross) at $28; the SMLE was being purchased at $26.50 at the same time. Gold at that time was $20 a Troy ounce. The Garand was costed initially at $65 but advanced tooling (much designed personally by John Garand) got that down to $26 during World War Two, at which time gold was $35. Deliveries of the M-16 were made at $109 during the Viet-Nam War, at which time gold was about $42 an ounce on the open market.

Further, the Ross WAS made in a Short version, a single rifle, at the request of the Army. The Standing Small Arms Committee, which never came closer to the Kaiser's troops than 2000 miles, refused to consider the merits of a Short version of the Mark III Ross.
 
Smellie

The Australian Lithgow firearms factory was built with the help and technical assistance of the American Pratt & Whitney company in 1909. And a funny story came about because of it called the Enfield inch. The British inch at the time was so many kernels of corn long, so many grains of barley, so many grain of wheat, etc. The Pratt & Whitney Americans looking at British blueprints could not make the Enfield machinery until they found out how long a British inch really was.
 
Smellie

The U.S. Army did not want the M16 rifle because it meant the death of our Springfield arsenal and the military not designing its own weapons. The Army sent 100,000 M16 rifles to Viet Nam without any cleaning equipment, BUT the M14 rifle were sent with cleaning equipment. The Army kept changing the rifles specifications and making changes to the M16 rifle hoping Colt would fail and go bankrupt.

Our Army wanted the rifle to fail and American died because of it and there were several Congressional hearing on this matter. In 1956 it was decided the all further military rifles would have a chrome chamber and bore as the M14 did. The Army did not include this in the M16 original requirements again hoping the rifle would fail. The shame of it all was no one was punished for this and the Army buried and covered up what they were doing.

I have several books on the subject and condensed transcripts of the Congressional hearings. Every M16 rifle handed to me in the service jammed, and I swore I would never own one, and I now have two. Its not the best rifle that could have been developed but its the only one we have.

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I have several books on the subject and condensed transcripts of the Congressional hearings. Every M16 rifle handed to me in the service jammed, and I swore I would never own one, and I now have two. Its not the best rifle that could have been developed but its the only one we have.

blackrifle.jpg

Well it certainly wouldn't have looked good if the US started using the STG44 after the war, which was the best rifle to be developed in that time period. I'm not convinced that the 8mm kurz roller delayed STG45 would have been better, other than from a simplicity of manufacturing point of view.

I think if the AR10 had been selected and fully developed it would have been a much different story.
 
Well it certainly wouldn't have looked good if the US started using the STG44 after the war, which was the best rifle to be developed in that time period. I'm not convinced that the 8mm kurz roller delayed STG45 would have been better, other than from a simplicity of manufacturing point of view.

I think if the AR10 had been selected and fully developed it would have been a much different story.

This is excellent info, but it's way off topic. We were discussing what 1914-1916 would look like to an average Canadian male. The Ross rifle definitely factors in to this discussion, but the relative merits of the M-16 in Vietnam (though a worthy, fascinating debate) are out of the wheelhouse.
 
Wonder why the Brits almost always gave the Canadian units with Ross's the worst ammo?

I doubt this was conscious. I expect there was the proverbial ####-ton of horrible ammo shot in LEs, but the chamber was so large, they got away with it. Then again, it's possible they didn't. I can see out of spec ammo have issues with rim-lock in the magazine and not feeding correctly.

But these are facts. The Ross debate begins to fall apart when cold, hard facts are produced. I think we can say with at least 80% certainty that the argument against the Ross was entirely political.
 
Wonder why the Brits almost always gave the Canadian units with Ross's the worst ammo?

Canadian .303 ammunition was made to a more exacting standard than the British stuff. This ammunition worked better in the machine guns with less problems, so that is one of the major reasons the Brits scooped up the Canadian Ammo.

I had a visit with SMELLIE today, and one of the topics we got around to over Coffee was Sam Hughes. SMELLIE had a very old copy of a letter, (four pages,) written by Sam Hughes to the General Staff, in March 1916. The poor quality of British ammunition, oversized dimensions, soft cases and other things were discussed in this letter, and more than once Hughes used the word "Criminally" when describing the actions of the British Miitary personnel in issuing this defective ammunition to the Canadians.
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Canadian .303 ammunition was made to a more exacting standard than the British stuff. This ammunition worked better in the machine guns with less problems, so that is one of the major reasons the Brits scooped up the Canadian Ammo.

I had a visit with SMELLIE today, and one of the topics we got around to over Coffee was Sam Hughes. SMELLIE had a very old copy of a letter, (four pages,) written by Sam Hughes to the General Staff, in March 1916. The poor quality of British ammunition, oversized dimensions, soft cases and other things were discussed in this letter, and more than once Hughes used the word "Criminally" when describing the actions of the British Miitary personnel in issuing this defective ammunition to the Canadians.
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So as far as Sam Hughes was concerned there was a distinct plan by the General Staff to purposely provide known faulty ammunition so that Canadian Battalions would fail to hold the line (as their rifles would not work) and Ypres etc. would be lost..?
 
So as far as Sam Hughes was concerned there was a distinct plan by the General Staff to purposely provide known faulty ammunition so that Canadian Battalions would fail to hold the line (as their rifles would not work) and Ypres etc. would be lost..?

If you want to distract attention from the real problem you yell fire and point at something else that is burning. In this case the British side stepped the real issue and blamed Canada and their rifle for the problem.

During the African Boer war, when conditions in the POW camps were reported the British shot two Australians to make the world feel better.
 
@ TOMMYINBC:

I don't think I would suggest that, even in my most paranoid moments. That would be Treason as well as conspiracy to commit mass murder.

On the other hand, there was a DEFINITE attitude on the part of the British bureaucracy that "the COLONIALS had better do as they are bloody TOLD". This coupled with a superior attitude of "Mother knows best".


As to the setting-up of Lithgow, Pratt and Whitney certainly knew what they were doing. They had already supplied toolroom and production-shop machinery which appeared on the floor in weapons factories all over the world. Their quality was well known, including by people in Quebec, Birmingham and Enfield Lock. They were the LOGICAL source of much of the tooling.

But there was SOME tooling which was distinctly British. The Enfield Cutter-box was one piece. There were lots of PICTURES of it around, but the actual toolroom specifications had not been published...... and Lithgow needed these to work with their P&W rifling machines.

What had changed very much was the British ATTITUDE, and there was no ugly obstructionism when the Aussies set up production of the distinctly-BRITISH Short rifle. Instead there was CO-OPERATION to an extent which amounted to a complete reversal of the attitudes and practices of 5 years earlier.
 
During the African Boer war, when conditions in the POW camps were reported the British shot two Australians to make the world feel better.[/QUOTE
]

And in WW1 25 Canadians were executed and 254 British....No Austrailans in the total of 306...and 'Breaker Morant' was born in somerset, England..
 
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