Importing AR-15 from USA

To re-iterate the message of the posters above: Exporting a firearm out of the US is not a daunting task and requires no special wizardry or sleight of hand. If the firearm requested for export fits the parameters of the export guidelines, and a precedence has been set with previously approved permits, a permit will be granted. Simple as that. The only variable is the time it may take to process - usually a week or two on the outside but I have waited up to a few months sometimes when they are backed up.

I must state that I regularly have in the past, and will continue to in the future, cross shop firearm prices against the those in the US and import if necessary, as for me it is purely a matter of principle. In saying so, and before the detractors cry afoul, I also have bought extensively from Canadian retailers when I have felt that the increase is warranted and well justified. There is no reason, in my mind for the prices on certain firearms to be artificially inflated to the levels that they currently are (vis-à-vis the US) due to perceived "wizardry" or "exorbitant cost of special modifications" that may be required to bring them across the border especially as we are not deriving benefits from economies of scale that are typically employed by the importers. I'm afraid that after my experience in this field, I simply do not subscribe to this often distributed propaganda that the increase in cost due to the "costly value added services" that are, apparently, inseparable from the importation process.

Ofcourse, one of the benefits of a free Capitalist country is the fact that we have, arguably, the agony of choice in our disposable spending. Do we really in this instance ?
 
Thanks for your reply.
In my case, I've been "gifted" or "awarded" 4 guns so it's not a case of trying to save a buck. I prefer to purchase firearms from CGNers on the EE, or I purchase new at local retailers.
I'm getting these particular guns for free - I just have to import them. They are brand new, legal in Canada, and legal for export from the USA (Mini 14, Glock 17, Springfield XD, Mossberg 590A1).
I have talked to a local dealer/importer about importing and I'm not averse to going that route however certain details about the logistics on the USA side will make the process somewhat onerous (or tedious) for him.
If anybody has any more details about the importing process then I'm all ears.
 
As far as I can tell, you can get a KAC SR-15 for $2000 south of the border, whereas the (monopoly) Canadian retailer wants $2700 for the same gun. I guess it's "around" the same price, for a loose definition of "around." After the $195 export/import fee, I'd be saving more than $500+HST!

Actually we don't have a price listed on the SR-15 at this time. So I'm not sure how you are comparing it.

We have also been denied export on it once already at a cost of $250 each time.

We are still working on getting some up here, which costs us and KAC time and money.

What is always interesting is we usually bring 5 uppers or 5 SR-25s or similar numbers of these higher ticket items in at a time.

Usually 7-8 are "pre-sold". When they arrive though, 3-4 people always cancel their orders.

US dealers don't have to deal with brokerage, customs, increased cost of shipping, limited carriers, higher insurance costs etc.

The old KAC Canadian exclusive never sold to the public and other dealers who have brought it in charged 20% more than we did.

If you've looked at our Blue Force Gear or other prices you'll find we are actually below US pricing.

Any way, the short story is yes, you can probably get some stuff cheaper going direct, because of what dealers have to go through up here.

Similar to ordering a pair of pants from 5.11 and not being charged the 15% duty by CBSA/CP when Canadian dealers are.
 
I'm sorry that you perceive my desire to save money as whiny. Perhaps you are in a much higher socioeconomic stratum than I, and can afford to subsidize the yachts of the oligopolists.


Actually you misinterpret my point (at least I had one)... We see these threads on a regular basis..

They end up being bashing of the vendors or a lot of hot air..

What I'm saying is do it already.. When you are done come back and tell us how much you really saved and how much time it took you..

For some people it's not practical..
I bill my time out at $100/Hr so if it's gonna take me 5 hours to fill and send off forms, track people down and follow up on things to save $500 dollars I'd be doing it at a loss.

If I need to fork over $4000 and then wait 12 weeks to get my property.. That's 4000 that isn't making money for me for near a full quarter..

For some people these are not issues..
 
Actually we don't have a price listed on the SR-15 at this time. So I'm not sure how you are comparing it.

I got the $2700 figure from this thread http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=547471 . Is that not accurate? Because if the true price is something resembling $2000 I'll call you with my credit card tomorrow.

US dealers don't have to deal with brokerage, customs, increased cost of shipping, limited carriers, higher insurance costs etc.

I accept that some of your costs are higher, but does it really amount to 25% per unit? I'm not out to bash you or any other Canadian retailer, I ask merely for information. If there is really 25% worth of friction in the system, I'd say we have a serious economic problem in this country and should be writing Harper.

Any way, the short story is yes, you can probably get some stuff cheaper going direct, because of what dealers have to go through up here.

The car dealers in the GTA have a similar story. My father recently landed a car from the US for about C$65k where the local dealer wouldn't budge off $85k. Apparently there is a $20k larger windshield washer fluid reservoir in the Canadian-market car or something.
 
We see these threads on a regular basis..

Wouldn't you have to conclude that there's something to it, if there are so many threads about it?

I bill my time out at $100/Hr

I'd say you're underselling yourself given the erudite and helpful nature of your posts in this thread. I wish I made $100/hr; I don't even make 40% of that.

so if it's gonna take me 5 hours to fill and send off forms, track people down and follow up on things to save $500 dollars I'd be doing it at a loss.

I don't get paid after work hours, so the time is effectively free to me. Also, I can pay Prophet to do it for $195, which seems to return 300% on the investment for an SR-15.
 
I got the $2700 figure from this thread http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=547471 . Is that not accurate? Because if the true price is something resembling $2000 I'll call you with my credit card tomorrow.



I accept that some of your costs are higher, but does it really amount to 25% per unit? I'm not out to bash you or any other Canadian retailer, I ask merely for information. If there is really 25% worth of friction in the system, I'd say we have a serious economic problem in this country and should be writing Harper.



The car dealers in the GTA have a similar story. My father recently landed a car from the US for about C$65k where the local dealer wouldn't budge off $85k. Apparently there is a $20k larger windshield washer fluid reservoir in the Canadian-market car or something.

yes its true, costs of doing trade in canada is very high, buying product for outside of canada is costly, allso the cost of being in the biz is very high .
I have family that owns a gun shop in texas, making 10% profit for him is doing well, and on 15% he does very well.
if we were to make 10% in the biz in canada it would not even cover the phone bill.

Im involved in an order right now bringing in body armour from the motherland "UK" we just spent $5k in shipping +$4k in taxs and then the cost of the armour,all paid up front.
If we sold it at US pricing the dealers would never stay afloat.
This is canada, get use to it or do somthing about it!
No one is getting rich any time soon.
bbb
 
1) MSRP on the SR-15 is actually around $2250 US so there is no way I could come close to the $2000 figure you are using.

2) We can't even get the SR-15 out of the US right now so calling us with a CC# won't do any good.

3) Shipping costs about 5x what is does to ship the same rifles from KAC to here compared to a US dealer

4) We pay 13% tax up front on all orders. Think about what this adds onto a $25,000 - $50,000 order. US dealers out of state don't pay tax up front.

5) We pay about $1500 a month in insurance to sell firearms, ammo and do the training. Very few in the industry in Canada carry insurance because of this cost. US dealers get insurance quite easily through the NRA

6) It costs us $250 each time we apply for an export permit, which US dealers don't have to worry about. So far we have had 3 denied costing us $750 with nothing to show for it.

7) Our latest shipment got sent back to KAC at the border because after picking up a shipment of rifles (knowing what they were) the carrier then decided not to broker them or transport them across the border. So we are now shipping again by a different carrier

8) Out of the gross profit we make we still have to help cover our other costs, most of which are higher here than in the US. Hydro, wages, CPP,EI, gas, phone etc.
 
this may or may not help, if the rifles are a gift and you have nothing invested in them the hoops should be jumped through. A friend of mines grandfather lived in port huron(usa) on the opposite side of the river is sarnia(ont). he inherited war trophy's and wanted to import them a couple were eays one or two of them took 2 years to get straightened out. he did it by talking to one of the numerous gun shops in that area that are used to doing it and enlisting there help. the fee's were reasonable and is a common occurence for them. they may be better informed then the gun shops in your area. not saying the rules are any different of course but i know more people that jump the border to buy cars/parts that live near the border then far away......
 
Wouldn't you have to conclude that there's something to it, if there are so many threads about it?.

Or there are a lot of uninformed newbies that think there is something and haven't done any reading...


I'd say you're underselling yourself given the erudite and helpful nature of your posts in this thread. I wish I made $100/hr; I don't even make 40% of that..

Again those that don't understand things.. Just because I bill out at $100/Hr doesn't mean I make $100/hr... This is the whole problem with your thread you don't know what you don't know and don't really care to learn about it.. Again how about a lot less talking and lot more action..



I don't get paid after work hours, so the time is effectively free to me. Also, I can pay Prophet to do it for $195, which seems to return 300% on the investment for an SR-15.


As said already stop telling everyone and do it already.. and then you can pass on your expertise as to how easy it was and how much you saved.. Of course when you find that your permit was denied or that you needed to do $500 worth of mods to get it out of the US you probably won't tell us..
 
They are also charging $700.00 plus. I know there are retailers charging far less for import fees.

In the interest of being accurate, we charge $499.00 for first gun and $250 for each firearm on that same permit. That fee covers all of the permits and work on both sides of the border... including the Custom's clearance on both sides... but does not include whatever CBSA charges for Duty (if applicable) and GST which you would pay anyway regardless of where you buy it or how you import it.

Because of the volume of permits we submit to US State Department, under their "new" fee structure, we are charged $250.00 by State Department for every permit application we submit... in addition to that our US office charges us for the time they spend preparing and processing the permit applications and filing the SED and other paperwork when the permit is used to make the export. Lastly we have our own labour costs on this side of the border to cover the physical transport across the border, the permit processing, import registrations, accounting, etc.. By the time we pay the hard costs and the various soft costs we're lucky if a $499.00 import fee results in a $50 "profit" for the company... often when there are "snags" with an import we end up losing money.

Some other companies (with very small annual permit volumes) can pay a State Department fee of 3% of the value of the permit, instead of the $250 flat rate... but that usually only lasts a year or two until their volumes grow and they are bumped into the $250 flat rate bracket.

The first year that this new fee structure came into effect we had to pay US State Department over $30,000 for our permit renewal (jumped from $1,750 annual fee to over $30,000 with @ 30 days notice) and it was retroactive (meaning we had to pay it out of our pocket because we couldn't go back to the customers that previous year and ask them for more money). Many of the US exporters simply stopped offering export services because they couldn't afford/justify the massive increases in their annual registration fees. At the time, US State Department actually admitted that their intent was to reduce the number of "small" exporters submitting permit applications by driving them out of that business... making it easier for State Department to deal with the volumes of permit applications being submitted and consolidating the number of registered exporters (fewer applicants making fewer but large value permit applications). It worked.

I make no apoligies for the fee we charge... we still offer the 3rd Party Import Service as just that, a "service". It is not a profit centre for us. People who use our service do so because they know it will be done right... done quickly... and rarely will our permit applications be rejected and the customer's item be trapped in the US (it has happened but not very often).

Mark
 
If you want to keep firearms and gun related businesses in Canada you have to support Canadian businesses.

Once the Canadian businesses are gone, where will you find ammunition, accessories, parts, etc?????

The U.S. could decide to shut down ALL exports of firearms and related goods at the drop of a hat without notice.

Comparable items have always been cheaper in the U.S. Even with our dollar doing so well, many stores of items in stock that were bought when our dollar sucked..............and they have to make some money back on the items.....

What kills us is the shipping,brokerage fees, and the export permits/paperwork.........and this isn't just with firearms stuff........I see the same with cars parts from the U.S.


So you may save money now, but in the long run you may end up screwing yourself
 
If the US stops the export of firearms and firearm related material then we will be pretty hosed in Canada.
I think the ACR is an interesting firearm case. They are being sold for about $3000. This is the basic model with no changes required for export as far as I can see. The same rifle is selling at retail for about $1800 in the states. That is one hell of a markup. Given you can buy a savage bolt and scope for $350 that has also been exported from the states, I'm at a loss to explain this. $2500 I could just about get my head around but $3000.
 
There is no doubt that firearm dealers have to make a profit to stay afloat. The dealers can say it costs this and it costs that to bring a product to market with a profit. My opinion is that the old saying "Greed is Good" applies in alot of cases but not all. If I want a product I will look at Canadian dealers first. Most of the time it is not in stock, 6 to 8 weeks away or the price is out to lunch. I will shop in the USA. I know what some people will say, open your own firearms shop and see how you do.....not interested, I just want the products at the prices that are fair, so I will shop the USA.
 
"...but .223 is kosher..." The chambering doesn't matter. All AR-15's are on the U.S. Dept of State's 'restricted for export' list. Any AR-15 requires the U.S. export permit that requires a Canadian import permit for the U.S. citizen seller/shipper to get. Takes several months. Plus the manufacturer is required to have a pricey(5 figures, as I recall) U.S. exporter's business licence. A lot of 'em have opted not to bother with exporting for that reason. And they have no trouble selling everything they make without exporting.
Flash hider restrictions are about Inter-State sales. Some States, California, for example, thinks they make the rifle evil. Our side doesn't care.
"...It's not like they're..." Payment for services rendered.
 
If the US stops the export of firearms and firearm related material then we will be pretty hosed in Canada.
I think the ACR is an interesting firearm case. They are being sold for about $3000. This is the basic model with no changes required for export as far as I can see. The same rifle is selling at retail for about $1800 in the states. That is one hell of a markup. Given you can buy a savage bolt and scope for $350 that has also been exported from the states, I'm at a loss to explain this. $2500 I could just about get my head around but $3000.

Then you have failed to see the multiple posts making it clear that US State Department export permit restrictions (at least the current one issued to us and the one issued to Bushmaster themselves) BOTH restricted the export of the US models, specifically DENYING the export of firearms with barrels marked 5.56 (which the US versions of the ACR are so marked), threaded barrels and/or barrels with flash hiders/suppressors... at least that's what ours says and that's what I was told by Bushmaster themselves their permit said.

Bushmaster went to the trouble (and added expense) of making a special run of guns and barrels specifically for Gravel for export to Canada (since their other models are NOT exportable)... that costs money and those costs are passed on to the end-user. The "Gravel" version is NOT available for sale to anyone else as far as I know... and only Gravel knows what Bushmaster is charging them for the guns (distributor cost).

In our case we buy the guns as regular US dealers from US Distributors (and frankly we paid OVER $2,000 US for each basic model when we bought ours) and we then had to have custom barrels made ourselves (which adds to the cost). We then had to pay the export and import costs... and cover our selling costs (3% of the gross sale including taxes and shipping is charged to us by the credit card companies, plus the money we outright lose when we give customers flat rate $9.99 shipping on guns that often cost us $40 to $60 to ship)... the selling costs alone add about $150 to our product cost.

We are selling the Non-Restricted ACR with our 18.7" Custom Match Grade SS Barrel for $2,999.99. Figure out what our "profit" is and tell me again how it's such a great markup. I figure we're lucky if we're making 20% gross and if you know anything about running a business in Canada then you know that 20% is NOT enough to run a successful business... certainly not a highly profitable one.

You assume that US dealers pay well below the lowest prices you see listed on Gunbroker, but the reality is that many of those ads you see are at pricing that is BELOW actual dealer costs... those ads are often from a dealer who is stuck with inventory and selling at a loss to get it out the door... or they have a gun they bought as part of a promo package (which many of the US manufacturers will do sometimes at SHOT Show for example... Buy 10 of "this model" gun and we'll give you a "Free" ACR in six months when we have them).

When you see other guys advertising ACR's at $2,099.99 BUY IT NOW or $2,199.99 BUYIT NOW, those ads represent prices where that US dealer is making $50 to $100 over his/her cost... and their costs often don't even include shipping to their door.

You would be surprised at the reality... but hey, if you can get an exportable version in the US and get an export permit approved and import one to Canada and save yourself some money then good for you... but when your gun breaks, say goodbye to whatever savings you thought you got because if you think getting a gun exported from the US was a pain in the ass then wait until you try to send one back to the US for repair and/or replacement.

One of the benefits that most people forget about when they compare US dealer pricing and Canadian dealer pricing is the warranty and service support that most Canadian dealers/distributors give to their clients. The costs of this support are part of our costs (they are seldom paid for by the US manufacturer)... but then no-one ever thinks their gun will break ;)

US dealers don't even talk to their customers about a problem with a gun... the factory deals with that and the customer deals directly with the factory. We may suggest that a customer speak directly with the factory to insure that their issue is correctly described and so the factory can best decide how they wish to resolve the issue, but we work as the go between to insure that any parts get exported via our company and that installation, etc. is done by trained and certified armourers, etc.. Companies like SIG, FN, LMT, RRA, Spikes, etc. won't and can't legally ship parts directly to an end-user in Canada... something to think about when making your comparisons.

Bottom line, we charge more for items than what those items sell for in the US and I make no apologies for doing so. Just like every other dealer in Canada, we're in business to make money... we are the sole source income for a number of employees who rely on the profits we make to pay their wages... my partner and I work long and hard hours to get people the items they want and to do so at as fair a price as we can... in return we hope (no guarantees for us) to earn a decent wage and maybe an additional profit return on the huge financial investment we've made in the business and the inventory.

It very much offends me when people who know nothing about running a business suggest that dealers are charging outrageous prices or making unacceptably high profit margins.

People are free to say what they like and think what they like. Some will ignore what I've said or dismiss my comments without giving them any real thought.... so be it. But for those of you who don't know and are willing to consider, I thank you for your time and hope that maybe I've given you another perspective to the discussion ;)

Mark
 
Questar and Wolverine will help you with any problems if gun breaks/spare parts.
Many local gunshops won't even do that.

I've also looked at individual importation from US Exporter, base fee is about $500 but that can cover several firearms so make sure you order more than 1 gun. THEN you have to pay for shipping, border fees, taxes, etc, you also have to apply for an IIC, inform the CBSA of it, preregister with CFO, and depending on where it enters, you may need to get ATT to pick it up yourself. Lots of $$$, work, and you are on the radar multiple times.

Better to have US exporter ship to a Canadian Store/importer, they handle the registration and sell to you and transfer. Plus it's mailed to you....money well spent in my opinion.
 
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