"Incendiary" Tracers

zZ_denis

zZ_denis

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I came across a fellow with some pulled 7.62x54r green tip tracer bullets for sale.
He claims that these particular bullets, when loaded with a low temperature powder, will not ignite after leaving the barrel, but rather produce a large flash and a bunch of smoke when hitting a hard target (i.e. steel).

I personally have a hard time believing tracers would work in this way, but if they would, what would be the legality of such bullets?
Incendiary bullets/ammo are prohibited, while tracers are not. These bullets are not designed to be incendiary, but would they be prohibited if they worked as such?
 
Tracers that I've fired have a phosphorous band that ignites from the friction of the barrel. I suppose its possible that in conditions of a slower load, it may not ignite. Often , some tracers don't actually "light up" until 100 meter or more out of the barrel. Even though already ignited, they don't burn well for the first couple slices of a millisecond. If you shot one at a close target, it would just shatter into sparks.
 
Tracers are NOT legal as they are not included in the definition of a "safety cartridge" in the Explosives Regulations. I've covered that in depth in more than one thread. I met with NRCan explosives inspectors on Monday and they confirmed that flat out. Feel free to call them and ask, since everyone here likes to argue.

http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/mms-smm/expl-expl/con-per-eng.htm#n1

Speak to Jean-Luc Arpin or Pavel Zraly.
 
There is no confusion. Incendiary and explosive ammunition is prohibited under the Firearms Act by Order in Council. Tracers are prohibited under the Explosives Act.

By default the CCC and Explosives Act prohibit the possession and use of all explosives and pyrotechnics (including ammunition) by default. The Act then goes on to make exceptions for possession of things like ammunition which it defines as a "safety cartridge" in the Explosives Regulations (which is a separate document from the Act). In the definition of safety cartridge tracers are specifically excluded.

When I met with Jean-Luc Arpin last year he showed me this, in print, in the Act and Regulations. Straight from the horse's mouth at NRCan.

I don't make the rules so don't shoot the messenger.
 
AK said:
There is no confusion. Incendiary and explosive ammunition is prohibited under the Firearms Act by Order in Council. Tracers are prohibited under the Explosives Act.

By default the CCC and Explosives Act prohibit the possession and use of all explosives and pyrotechnics (including ammunition) by default. The Act then goes on to make exceptions for possession of things like ammunition which it defines as a "safety cartridge" in the Explosives Regulations (which is a separate document from the Act). In the definition of safety cartridge tracers are specifically excluded.

When I met with Jean-Luc Arpin last year he showed me this, in print, in the Act and Regulations. Straight from the horse's mouth at NRCan.

I don't make the rules so don't shoot the messenger.
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I'm not saying you are wrong or right, but if you were right then there is many of these currently being sold on our EE.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/search.php?searchid=14032837
So I would say yes, you are confusing.

We all know illegal transactions are not tolerated so........someone is wrong.
 
SO lets tell all the dealers that are selling tracers oh And how did NrCan let the tracers in in the first place? If they were let in that means they were on the approved list. I might be wrong but if its not on the list you can't import it.
 
Can you point to where the law actually says that?

This is what is prohibited ammo:

http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/regu/sor-98-462/latest/sor-98-462.html

PROHIBITED AMMUNITION

Former Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 10

1. Any cartridge that is capable of being discharged from a commonly available semi-automatic handgun or revolver and that is manufactured or assembled with a projectile that is designed, manufactured or altered so as to be capable of penetrating body armour, including KTW, THV and 5.7 x 28 mm P-90 cartridges.

2. Any projectile that is designed, manufactured or altered to ignite on impact, where the projectile is designed for use in or in conjunction with a cartridge and does not exceed 15 mm in diameter.

3. Any projectile that is designed, manufactured or altered so as to explode on impact, where the projectile is designed for use in or in conjunction with a cartridge and does not exceed 15 mm in diameter.

4. Any cartridge that is capable of being discharged from a shotgun and that contains projectiles known as “fléchettes” or any similar projectiles.

You are right tracers are not "safety cartridge" but that does not make them illegal. It just means that they are not Division 1 Class 6 in the NARCAN regs. What it is classed as I don't know.

And to the OP, the idea you are talking about would be illegal as it meets the definition of prohibited ammunition by igniting on impact.

Shawn
 
no tracers are not illegal, i have this i checked on before buying a 1000 rounds some years back. however, when they hit a target the phosphorus trace element often detaches and burns on its own for a few seconds, so be careful as to the conditions when you use them. a lot of ranges say no tracer as they don't want there berms catching fire.
 
AK said:
There is no confusion. Incendiary and explosive ammunition is prohibited under the Firearms Act by Order in Council. Tracers are prohibited under the Explosives Act.

By default the CCC and Explosives Act prohibit the possession and use of all explosives and pyrotechnics (including ammunition) by default. The Act then goes on to make exceptions for possession of things like ammunition which it defines as a "safety cartridge" in the Explosives Regulations (which is a separate document from the Act). In the definition of safety cartridge tracers are specifically excluded.

When I met with Jean-Luc Arpin last year he showed me this, in print, in the Act and Regulations. Straight from the horse's mouth at NRCan.

I don't make the rules so don't shoot the messenger.
Click to expand...

I don't know who the hell Jean-Luc Arpin is or which end of the horse we're talking about (although if he's connected to the Government, I have an idea it's the far end)...but if he's right, there's an awful lot of high volume dealers breaking the law in Canada.:rolleyes:
 
tangospike99 said:
SO lets tell all the dealers that are selling tracers oh And how did NrCan let the tracers in in the first place? If they were let in that means they were on the approved list. I might be wrong but if its not on the list you can't import it.
Click to expand...
You are correct that if it is not on the List of Authorized Explosives it may not be imported, or sold, or possessed. You will not find any tracer ammunition on the list. They were initially imported because someone did not know the law, made a mistake, and now has a large pile of ammunition they cannot legally sell.

There are no dealers selling tracers in the EE. There are some individuals and they are in the wrong too simply because this is not widely known. The Czech 7.62x39 tracers that were imported a while back were ALL pulled from public sale, and at the time (a year ago) I was in Ottawa for a meeting with NRCan and volunteered to ask why this was the case. What I have explained so far in this thread is what I was told by senior explosives inspectors from NRCan. Doesn't get much more horse's mouth than that.

shawn said:
You are right tracers are not "safety cartridge" but that does not make them illegal. It just means that they are not Division 1 Class 6 in the NARCAN regs. What it is classed as I don't know.
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Absolutely it makes them illegal, because by default you are prohibited from possessing anything besides safety cartridges (or any explosive, for that matter, unless the Explosives Act/Regulations make an exception).

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/E-17/FullText.html

Explosives Act

E-17

An Act respecting the manufacture, testing, sale, storage, transportation and importation of explosives and the use of fireworks

PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES
Manufacture, use, etc.

6. Except as authorized under this Act and subject to such exemptions as may be provided by regulation, no person shall
(a) make or manufacture explosives either wholly or in part except in a licensed factory;
(b) sell any authorized explosive unless that person is the operator of a licensed factory or licensed magazine and is authorized to sell explosives;
(c) store any explosive in a magazine that is not a licensed magazine;
(d) have in his possession any explosive; or
(e) carry on, except in a licensed factory, any of the following processes, namely,
(i) dividing into its component parts, or otherwise breaking up or unmaking, any explosive,

(ii) making fit for use any damaged explosive, or

(iii) remaking, altering or repairing any explosive.

Tumbleweed said:
I don't know who the hell Jean-Luc Arpin is or which end of the horse we're talking about (although if he's connected to the Government, I have an idea it's the far end)...but if he's right, there's an awful lot of high volume dealers breaking the law in Canada.:rolleyes:
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Exactly which high-volume dealers are selling tracers? I see none.

Jean-Luc Arpin is the national manager of Licensing, Compliance and Authorization at the Explosives Regulatory Division, Natural Resources Canada, Ottawa. I would venture to say he knows enough about the Explosives Act to take seriously what he tells me.

I just got off the phone with him and have asked for an email about this. I'll have it tomorrow and will post it here.
 
AK said:
......
Click to expand...

I expected this reply from you.. I even considered mentioning it in original post... but..
As i posted in one of your previous threads, aside from you, Jean-Luc Arpin, and probably a couple of other people, nobody is familiar with these fine details of the explosives act. It's best for all of us if it stayed this way. Posting it in every single thread concerning tracers certainly doesn't help.

There is no one in Canada to enforce these regulations. I don't think there is a single police officer out there that knows about this. Even guys at RCMP and all non-senior NRCAN employees have no clue what defines a "safety cartridge" . It's best to think of this "law" as some of those laws in US like "you cant drive a black car on Sunday" or "Putting salt on a railroad track may be punishable by death."
 
zZ_denis said:
I expected this reply from you.. I even considered mentioning it in original post... but..
As i posted in one of your previous threads, aside from you, Jean-Luc Arpin, and probably a couple of other people, nobody is familiar with these fine details of the explosives act. It's best for all of us if it stayed this way. Posting it in every single thread concerning tracers certainly doesn't help.
Click to expand...
I get what you're saying. It's incorrect to state that tracers are legal though when it could land people in hot water. NRCan pulled hundreds of thousands of rounds of 7.62x39 tracer off the shelves because importers were not informed, so there IS some enforcement done. I would rather people be better informed and not have these problems in the first place. It only takes one cop or inspector to ruin your day. My point isn't to show how much more I know or how wrong everyone is, even though I feel it's being perceived that way.
 
AK said:
I would rather people be better informed and not have these problems in the first place...
It only takes one cop or inspector to ruin your day...
My point isn't to show how much more I know or how wrong everyone is, even though I feel it's being perceived that way.
Click to expand...

AK, Thanks for the heads up on this important issue.
Your replies have been very informative and been taken as such.
Personally, I preffer to make informed decisions based on best information available. Not all the arm chair lawyers on the WWW.
Thanks for the heads up.
Rob
 
AK said:
I get what you're saying. It's incorrect to state that tracers are legal though when it could land people in hot water. NRCan pulled hundreds of thousands of rounds of 7.62x39 tracer off the shelves because importers were not informed, so there IS some enforcement done. I would rather people be better informed and not have these problems in the first place. It only takes one cop or inspector to ruin your day. My point isn't to show how much more I know or how wrong everyone is, even though I feel it's being perceived that way.
Click to expand...

NRCAN didn't actually "pull" the tracers from Lever Arms. They just told them to stop selling them as they were not authorized for sale to the public. This was posted by one of the Lever Arms employees. Nothing was said about the tracers being illegal to posses, and as far as i know, Lever is still sitting on those tracers (they were not confiscated).
Not only that, but Lever had accurate records of who they sold those tracers to (i was one of them), and nobody at NRCAN (or any other gov. agency) asked for those records and tried to contact the buyers. So i would say that this regulation is NOT being enforced.
There has never been a case of an individual being charged (or getting in trouble somehow) for possessing tracers.

If Mr. Arpin really cared about enforcing this, wouldn't he do more than just informing an individual (you) about these regs in a private conversation?

I realize that you have good intentions when you are posting this, but as I've said before - it is likely to backfire and do us more harm than good.
 
Then I shall say no more on the matter. Thank you for at least listening with an open mind. I find that many people will just bury their heads in the sand when you tell them something they don't want to hear.
 
I am more than willing to hear what you have to say and would like to know what the laws actually are.

But as has been posted before if this is illegal why have I never been to a gun show that doesn't sell tracer? With all the issues we have been having, especially in Ontario, why has no one been charged with selling or possessing tracers?

One last question where does it say that phosphorus if an explosive?

I have looked and can find nothing that says tracers are illegal.

Shawn
 
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