I was humbled by the wind last night. Very difficult to keep all 10 shots in the rings with a 15-20km wind. Started picking my shots between gusts and managed a 1.71". Can't formally submit the card but not bad for the 1st attempt. I will have to try again in a few days.
Interest in 100 yard .22LR challenge - 2023 Discussion thread
- Thread starter grauhanen
- Start date
The two clubs to which I am a member . . . one has a 100 yard range and the other is 100 metres.
During the Covid crisis, a competition was arranged for the members of the two clubs.
The main target which shows 100 yard unlimited, was in use at the 100 metre distance but was downsized for the 100 yard range as we were shooting for score.
Keeping your shots in the 7-ring for scoring was the basis for entry into the challenge . . . shots touching the 7-ring qualified for entry . . . IIRC.
Printing a reasonable facsimile on Index card (65 lb. stock) is essential. This gives a nice clean hole that can be accurately measured from the outside of the lead smudge.
One other thing that cannot be stressed sufficiently is keeping the entry free of comments. Should you wish to compliment a shooter do so as a private message.
Keeping it clean is the biggest challenge to the co-ordinator!
During the Covid crisis, a competition was arranged for the members of the two clubs.
The main target which shows 100 yard unlimited, was in use at the 100 metre distance but was downsized for the 100 yard range as we were shooting for score.
Keeping your shots in the 7-ring for scoring was the basis for entry into the challenge . . . shots touching the 7-ring qualified for entry . . . IIRC.
Printing a reasonable facsimile on Index card (65 lb. stock) is essential. This gives a nice clean hole that can be accurately measured from the outside of the lead smudge.
One other thing that cannot be stressed sufficiently is keeping the entry free of comments. Should you wish to compliment a shooter do so as a private message.
Keeping it clean is the biggest challenge to the co-ordinator!
Hi,
Very interesting, and daunting challenge. I just got to the point to reliably shoot 1" at 50 yards - 5 and 10 shot groups. I'm not sure if I could handle the humbling that shooting at 100 yards would offer.
But hats off to you folks doing it.
Cheers,
Neil
Very interesting, and daunting challenge. I just got to the point to reliably shoot 1" at 50 yards - 5 and 10 shot groups. I'm not sure if I could handle the humbling that shooting at 100 yards would offer.
But hats off to you folks doing it.
Cheers,
Neil
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Hi,
Very interesting, and daunting challenge. I just got to the point to reliably shoot 1" at 50 yards - 5 and 10 shot groups. I'm not sure if I could handle the humbling that shooting at 100 yards would offer.
But hats off to you folks doing it.
Cheers,
Neil
You don't know till you try.
- Location
- Nova Scotia
That is the spirit. It is a challenge and not a competition. The only person you should be competing against, is yourself.
OkayShooter makes an excellent point. This is not a competition. Everyone has different skill levels, different rifles and equipment, and access to different ammunition.
Shooters need only compete against themselves, to see if they can improve over time. Shoot now and submit a target. Work on improvements and shoot more targets. Submit better targets as often as they come.
Shooters need only compete against themselves, to see if they can improve over time. Shoot now and submit a target. Work on improvements and shoot more targets. Submit better targets as often as they come.
Hi,
I completely agree with both of you - Okayshooter, Grauhanen. For my part, the wondering if I could handle the humbling was not because I'm comparing myself to people who are very good marksman. It's just that shooting at 100 yards will show me a bunch of things I'll need to work on. And I just started to think I was becoming an alright shot. :-}
Anyways, I really like this sub-forum, as it seems pretty rare for people talk about stuff other than shooting rimfires and adjacent subjects. And the open attitude of "Give 'er a go", so to speak, is really nice to be hearing.
Cheers,
Neil
I completely agree with both of you - Okayshooter, Grauhanen. For my part, the wondering if I could handle the humbling was not because I'm comparing myself to people who are very good marksman. It's just that shooting at 100 yards will show me a bunch of things I'll need to work on. And I just started to think I was becoming an alright shot. :-}
Anyways, I really like this sub-forum, as it seems pretty rare for people talk about stuff other than shooting rimfires and adjacent subjects. And the open attitude of "Give 'er a go", so to speak, is really nice to be hearing.
Cheers,
Neil
- Location
- Nova Scotia
But those things you notice and need to work on at 100, are stuff you need to work on at close range. Longer range just magnifies it more, and makes it more noticeable.
As that just off by 1/4" at 25Y, might be 1/2 at 50, 3/4 at 75, 1" at 100.
Grauhanen,
Very true. For me though, not being a serious medium or long distance shooter, 100 yards is well beyond the distance I would shoot for small game.
Regardless, you're right - working out whatever bad habits I have at 100 yards will only improve my short range shooting.
Cheers,
Neil
Very true. For me though, not being a serious medium or long distance shooter, 100 yards is well beyond the distance I would shoot for small game.
Regardless, you're right - working out whatever bad habits I have at 100 yards will only improve my short range shooting.
Cheers,
Neil
Tonight there was only a little wind but one bullet failed the wind test and ballooned a 1.742" third group.
Groups 1 was 0.947 and #2 was 1.018". Thought there might be a chance of improving but the average was 0.005" larger than Sunday.
Groups 1 was 0.947 and #2 was 1.018". Thought there might be a chance of improving but the average was 0.005" larger than Sunday.
This is for more serious shooters looking to improve on their results. It's worth keeping in mind that with a good rifle/barrel and good shooting skills, there are several reasons why rounds don't go "where they should".
First, as horseman2 says, is wind. At 100 yards, every 1 mph change in crosswind between shots will move a .22LR bullet about 0.36". When winds are switchy, changing directions and velocity unpredictably, it's very difficult to get repeatable accuracy performance.
Unless the shooter can accurately account for wind changes, which requires a number of wind flags, 100 yard shooters are best advised to shoot in the calmest wind conditions possible.
Second, is ammo MV variation. At 100 yards, each 10 fps difference in MV between rounds results in about 0.25" of vertical dispersion. When you consider that a box of good match ammo can be expected to have an extreme spread of 30 - 35 fps, it's possible to have 0.75" of vertical dispersion just from MV variation. Many lots of match ammos will have an ES of 40 and more fps. When using entry level match ammos such as SK varieties or the less expensive Eley or RWS varieties (not to mention CCI SV or other SV ammos), ES is often much higher with comensurate vertical spread.
Test different ammos to find the lots that produce the least vertical.
Third, is the bullet itself. Imperfect bullets cause unanticipated changes in POI. Two main problems occur with soft lead .22LR bullets. One is the bullet heel. If this isn't perfect, if the heel is uneven or otherwise improperly formed, the bullet's trajectory will be affected. In other words, it won't fly true.
The second is the bullet's center of gravity. Unlike jacketed centerfire bullets, soft lead projectiles like .22LR bullets and airgun pellets, can't be consistently made in quantity without having an offset center of gravity. Cg offset can vary by lot, from box-to-box, or from round-to-round within a box. When Cg is offset, bullet dispersion is affected. Some lots of the same variety of ammo will shoot better at distance than others. Cg offset is also affected by the rifle's bore. The chamber/leade and bore will obturate or deform each round in a particular way.
Unfortunately, it's not possible to identify center of gravity variation. The only way to know if one lot of a match ammo, say Center X for example, will have more or less dispersion at 100 than another lot of Center X, is to test it by shooting.
The bottom line is to test for the best ammo and to shoot in calm conditions unless you are able to accurately account for wind changes. Either way, flags are needed. Even when it's calm, flags are needed to confirm that there is minimal air movement. It's nearly impossible to see slight changes in air movement without flags. Slight changes in air movement can affect a .22LR bullet trajectory.
First, as horseman2 says, is wind. At 100 yards, every 1 mph change in crosswind between shots will move a .22LR bullet about 0.36". When winds are switchy, changing directions and velocity unpredictably, it's very difficult to get repeatable accuracy performance.
Unless the shooter can accurately account for wind changes, which requires a number of wind flags, 100 yard shooters are best advised to shoot in the calmest wind conditions possible.
Second, is ammo MV variation. At 100 yards, each 10 fps difference in MV between rounds results in about 0.25" of vertical dispersion. When you consider that a box of good match ammo can be expected to have an extreme spread of 30 - 35 fps, it's possible to have 0.75" of vertical dispersion just from MV variation. Many lots of match ammos will have an ES of 40 and more fps. When using entry level match ammos such as SK varieties or the less expensive Eley or RWS varieties (not to mention CCI SV or other SV ammos), ES is often much higher with comensurate vertical spread.
Test different ammos to find the lots that produce the least vertical.
Third, is the bullet itself. Imperfect bullets cause unanticipated changes in POI. Two main problems occur with soft lead .22LR bullets. One is the bullet heel. If this isn't perfect, if the heel is uneven or otherwise improperly formed, the bullet's trajectory will be affected. In other words, it won't fly true.
The second is the bullet's center of gravity. Unlike jacketed centerfire bullets, soft lead projectiles like .22LR bullets and airgun pellets, can't be consistently made in quantity without having an offset center of gravity. Cg offset can vary by lot, from box-to-box, or from round-to-round within a box. When Cg is offset, bullet dispersion is affected. Some lots of the same variety of ammo will shoot better at distance than others. Cg offset is also affected by the rifle's bore. The chamber/leade and bore will obturate or deform each round in a particular way.
Unfortunately, it's not possible to identify center of gravity variation. The only way to know if one lot of a match ammo, say Center X for example, will have more or less dispersion at 100 than another lot of Center X, is to test it by shooting.
The bottom line is to test for the best ammo and to shoot in calm conditions unless you are able to accurately account for wind changes. Either way, flags are needed. Even when it's calm, flags are needed to confirm that there is minimal air movement. It's nearly impossible to see slight changes in air movement without flags. Slight changes in air movement can affect a .22LR bullet trajectory.
The variables described by Grauhanen in post #32 can produce many frustrations in .22 rimfire when shooting for group. Group can be brutal on the brain when in no wind, the bad rounds are flying way off the group with no fault of the shooter.
Most of my rimfire target shooting at my local range is for score. Score is more forgiving if the target ring dimensions are sized for ammo dispersion expectations at selected distances. I make our club's match score targets at 50m and 100m so that high match scores are possible for the typical SK grade of target ammo.
When I shoot this challenge, I am trying for 10's and X's in my head. Training on score targets will by default also be good training for group, so all practice is win-win for any discipline. However when shooting for group, those first 3 shots on a bull lock you into a group location, so then the score may have to be sacrificed for chasing the group.
Flags: Its very rewarding making the wind call with the flags, holding way out in the 9 or 8 ring, and watching the round curve into and hit the 10X!....and then for the next round the flags appear to be telling you to hold the same place, and then it will print exactly where you held in the 8 or 9! Lots of fun!
Most of my rimfire target shooting at my local range is for score. Score is more forgiving if the target ring dimensions are sized for ammo dispersion expectations at selected distances. I make our club's match score targets at 50m and 100m so that high match scores are possible for the typical SK grade of target ammo.
When I shoot this challenge, I am trying for 10's and X's in my head. Training on score targets will by default also be good training for group, so all practice is win-win for any discipline. However when shooting for group, those first 3 shots on a bull lock you into a group location, so then the score may have to be sacrificed for chasing the group.
Flags: Its very rewarding making the wind call with the flags, holding way out in the 9 or 8 ring, and watching the round curve into and hit the 10X!....and then for the next round the flags appear to be telling you to hold the same place, and then it will print exactly where you held in the 8 or 9! Lots of fun!
With 7 posts you must be new. This ain't what your supposed to be doing here.
Shot a quick 30 the other day with my friend. Only had a bipod and some CCI SV. Shot about ~1.5 and 2.".
Not my best. I'll actually enter when I get some SK and some alone time.
The name on the box guarantees nothing
Over the last month and a bit, the ammo I've been testing at 100 hasn't been encouraging. Today I shot two lots of Midas + and neither was very good. Depending on how it's looked at, today's one lot of Center X did better.
The CX did manage a ten-shot group that seems very good, good enough to be .866 outside-to-outside edge.
As nice as the one group is, it's not a good reflection of the ammo in general. The rest of the target is shown below.
Chronographing the lots that were shot today might give some useful information about the ammo. While more testing is needed for more final conclusions, I'm not hopeful that these lots will prove to be sub-1 MOA. Clearly, the name on the box guarantees nothing.
The Midas results below.
Below, the second lot of M+.
The Center X below.
The testing will continue.
Over the last month and a bit, the ammo I've been testing at 100 hasn't been encouraging. Today I shot two lots of Midas + and neither was very good. Depending on how it's looked at, today's one lot of Center X did better.
The CX did manage a ten-shot group that seems very good, good enough to be .866 outside-to-outside edge.
_500.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
As nice as the one group is, it's not a good reflection of the ammo in general. The rest of the target is shown below.
Chronographing the lots that were shot today might give some useful information about the ammo. While more testing is needed for more final conclusions, I'm not hopeful that these lots will prove to be sub-1 MOA. Clearly, the name on the box guarantees nothing.
The Midas results below.
Below, the second lot of M+.
The Center X below.
The testing will continue.
- Location
- Nova Scotia
FYI Glenn, the link to print off the targets is broken.
That link ceased to work last year already. It was accessed from another thread, but I don't know how to make it work.
If anyone would like to have a pdf of the target, he should PM me with his email address and I will be happy to send one.
