Interest in 100 yard .22LR challenge?

Good ammo is hard to find. And that makes lot testing even more difficult.
The specific brand or lot that shoots well in someone's rifle may not necessarily shoot very well in another rifle.
So knowing what ammo was used is not very useful information. One still has to do their own searching and testing.
That, and I am not about to use my best Tenex for online giggles.

That is my problem, unless I want to travel 5 hours or pay shipping. I'm limited on the avaliable ammo. I did notice that the S&B and CCI SV, did not shoot as well as the Eley Sport in the 2 guns I tried it in.

I'm gearing up to start shooting small bore F class.. I hope to try and get other ammo. Like partake in group buy, or I'm going on an ammo run.

I want to improve on the 10/22 before pulling out the Annie 64.
 
I can second grauhanen's great writing on the rifle, ammo and shooter him/herself.
I have literally tried many 22lr rifles with many different match grade ammos, I have not yet find a single good recipe so far. Sometimes a good barrel shoots average ammo well, sometimes it doesn't. I guess that's the fun part of the rimfire.
I have shot and own/owned the following rifles/actions/barrels:
Ruger Precision Rimfire
CZ 457
Tikka T1x
Vudoo three-60 barrelled action
RimX action with PVA barrel

and with the combinations of the following ammos:
cci mini-mag
cci sv
sk long range
sk rilfe match
sk standard+
lapua center-x
lapua midas+
lapua x-act
eley sports
eley team
eley tenex

Your RimX seems to be shooting quite well with that Center-X. Nice and consistent. I would not be disappointed at all with that.
 
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My problem is that I always want to try something I don't own yet.
Now I am contemplating to buy an Anschutz. Am I crazy?

I wouldn't say that and I would never tell another man how to spend his own money.
But if it was me and I had your RimX and a case of that ammo I would go win some CRPS matches. The combo is already good enough.
 
As some encouragement for others to try the 100 yard challenge, the target below was shot on Thursday last week, October 6, 2022.

The three group average is 0.706". As something that can never be expected, one of the few sub-.6" groups of my season came on this target.

The ammo was a 2021 lot of Center X. (For JQIAN, the rifle is an Anschutz.)




 
As some encouragement for others to try the 100 yard challenge, the target below was shot on Thursday last week, October 6, 2022.

The three group average is 0.706". As something that can never be expected, one of the few sub-.6" groups of my season came on this target.

The ammo was a 2021 lot of Center X. (For JQIAN, the rifle is an Anschutz.)

It's great info and very encouraging.
Last week I shot my newly acquired Anschutz 1761 MPR with SK Biathlon at 100 meter. First couple of groups were really promising, I estimated they were 0.8".
The first 8 shots in the last group were also nice, huddled together around 1". I thought I would beat the 1" mark this time, however the 9th shot all of sudden went way off, it's more than 2" from the group. I was disheartened and gave up on that paper and didn't submit.
I guess it's just the fun of rimfire.
I will try it again this weekend if time allows.
 
It's great info and very encouraging.
Last week I shot my newly acquired Anschutz 1761 MPR with SK Biathlon at 100 meter. First couple of groups were really promising, I estimated they were 0.8".
The first 8 shots in the last group were also nice, huddled together around 1". I thought I would beat the 1" mark this time, however the 9th shot all of sudden went way off, it's more than 2" from the group. I was disheartened and gave up on that paper and didn't submit.
I guess it's just the fun of rimfire.

Ya rimfire is like that! :) Always crazy fliers, and you can often see through a high power scope the fliers curve off.

I wonder if statistically for rimfire, shooting from the bench and using paper targets, a better measure of marksmanship, the rifle's precision or consistency, and the ammo quality, is shooting for score?

Shooting for group in centerfire is a seriously controlled discipline where the shooter controls the quality and dimensions of their ammo through reloading. But I wonder for rimfire if the ammo variability and limitations make shooting for group an inferior method to assess the rifle's qualities and the shooter's skills?

When wind is added, and the sample size is small, it becomes impossible to determine the differences between poor wind calls and the fliers inherent in that lot of ammo. As the sample size increases (using the same ammo lot), then I think these differences between shooter's wind reading skills can be teased out of the data, but that sample size needs to be quite large.

Depending on the target's ring diameter design, shooting for score allows groups some flexibility in size to score high, and to score clean with the X's for tie breaking.

What target score cannot do is be comparable between target designs because the ring diameters and line thicknesses, and methods of counting score can all be different. Group size does have the advantage of being universally comparable between any shooters, anywhere, any time. Advocates of group are correct that the first 3 rounds in the group create the defacto interior target space, and so group in that sense is equivalent to target in revealing a shooter's skills. But it is possible in a target score match to shoot larger groups but have the higher score over the next guy.

For score, 10-shots per bull is too many because of shredded holes. At 50m its best to use individual rimfire bulls (e.g. 25 bulls per sheet for a max score of 250-25X). But using a 100m/yard target, 5 bulls with 5 shots per bull (250-25X) is easy to score and more practical to get on one 11" x 17" sheet (we have such a 100m target at my club).

I like the rule for inside edge scores.

In Grauhanen's target in post #105, if we consider the score, (assuming it was aimed at for the X ring, which maybe it wasn't, and that the group was not chased for minimizing it, so just going with this as a hypothetical example that in no way reflects the actual strategy G used for these groups....), the max possible is 300-30X, and I see the following (not withstanding some guessing for the ragged holes - BTW nice shooting!):
- top right = 100, guessing 3X? (0.726" group)
- bottom left = 100, guessing 3X? (0.588" group)
- bottom right = 98-7X (0.804" group).

Total score = 298-13X (hypothetical because G's holds and aiming could have been for group, not score).

Top right (0.726") and bottom left (0.588") is a large difference for group, but identical for score (if I guessed correct on the X's).

The bottom right (0.804") dropped 2 points but had the best X-count. Points come first, but in a tie those X's matter, so bottom right aint bad depending on how the theoretical match went with other scores.

Theoretically a competitor could have shot larger groups in aggregate, but beat that score.

So something to consider for rimfire on the statistics around target score vs group size.
 
I wonder if statistically for rimfire, shooting from the bench and using paper targets, a better measure of marksmanship, the rifle's precision or consistency, and the ammo quality, is shooting for score?

A very interesting question ... I look forward to the discussion!
 
With the rifles I shoot (Anschutz , Cooper , CZ) and
the quality of ammunition (SK , RWS , Lapua)
a sheltered range to shoot (wind)
I am definitely the weakest link in the equation.
... skwerl
 
This has been entertaining. I don't usually shoot my rifles to find the smallest groups. If I can get the groups down to around 1" with my practice ammo, then I am satisfied.
I don't do much actual lot testing to find the best lots of ammo other than to see how a certain ammo shoots in a particular rifle. If it doesn't shoot as I would like, then I will tune the entire system accordingly until I am satisfied. There are many things that can be done to adjust the harmonics of some rifles to allow ammo to perform at it's best.
 
Call me simple but I'd just agree to drop 1 or 2 of the worst shots. 2 would be for cheaper ammo CCI and wildcats. Anything over 10$/box would be remove 1. Maybe shoot 11 to truly compensate? One in the chamber + mag
 
Grauhanen, that is some impressive shooting. This competition has been fun, and really forced me to up my game by improving my technique. I'm still convinced there is an under 1.0" average in my possiblities, but it's going to take some continued effort.
 
I seen that, Congrats.

You may want to try other ammos.
I found Eley Sport is the worst Eley I have tried, but also it's the most inexpensive one.
Eley Tenex is the best Eley so far but it's tripled price of Sport.

The best value/price ammo I found so far is actually Norma TAC-22, it's only 14 cents each but it can shoot 1.5" group at 100 yards with all my rifles (RimX, Vudoo, Anschutz, CZ). You may want to give that try.

Next step up to me is SK Biathlon, it's consistent with my Anschutz, but not so much as with RimX or Vudoo.
SK long range and rifle match seem to suit my RimX the best.

Of course so far the best that my Vudoo loves is Lapua Midas+, but that thing is 50 cents each.
 
You may want to try other ammos.
I found Eley Sport is the worst Eley I have tried, but also it's the most inexpensive one.
Eley Tenex is the best Eley so far but it's tripled price of Sport.

The best value/price ammo I found so far is actually Norma TAC-22, it's only 14 cents each but it can shoot 1.5" group at 100 yards with all my rifles (RimX, Vudoo, Anschutz, CZ). You may want to give that try.

Next step up to me is SK Biathlon, it's consistent with my Anschutz, but not so much as with RimX or Vudoo.
SK long range and rifle match seem to suit my RimX the best.

Of course so far the best that my Vudoo loves is Lapua Midas+, but that thing is 50 cents each.

Thanks

I'm sure I can do better, I'm just getting used to this gun, I need more practice. Going from 5# triggers to 8oz trigger there been a few oops wasnt ready.

Eley sport is just what I can get locally. Well I can get some Eley Rem Match but that out of the price we set for limited division in F class. We keep it under 11$ per 50.

Maybe Saturday after the shoot, I might see if I can test some ammo, as alot of them run SK ammo.
 
I wonder if statistically for rimfire, shooting from the bench and using paper targets, a better measure of marksmanship, the rifle's precision or consistency, and the ammo quality, is shooting for score?



When wind is added, and the sample size is small, it becomes impossible to determine the differences between poor wind calls and the fliers inherent in that lot of ammo. As the sample size increases (using the same ammo lot), then I think these differences between shooter's wind reading skills can be teased out of the data, but that sample size needs to be quite large.



Theoretically a competitor could have shot larger groups in aggregate, but beat that score.

So something to consider for rimfire on the statistics around target score vs group size.

Shooting for score is the preferred method of determining .22LR shooting performance, albeit with an important caveat.

It's used exclusively in serious .22LR BR competition. These are invariably shot at 50 yards, and when shot outdoors more skill is required for reading wind conditions -- when to pull the trigger and when not to -- than is needed for setting up the rig, tuning, and aiming. With the vast majority of serious rimfire BR shooters, it's the one who most correctly accounts for conditions who's often the shooter who's hard to beat as everyone is using top notch equipment and ammo. In serious competition, .22 BR shooters are using at least four flags plus windicators -- all for shooting at 50 yards.

The caveat is that, in .22LR shooting, as distance increases it's more and more difficult to account for wind. Even slight movement of air between shooter and target can affect a shot, and this minimal air movement can be detected only with wind flags or similar indicators. It's not enough to look at leaf movement on trees or to judge by feel. Without skillful use a good number of wind flags, it's impossible to account for wind, especially at longer distances.

When shooting at 100 yards with .22LR, without sufficient wind flags and the requisite ability to read them effectively (and what a demanding task that would be) the only alternative is to shoot when there is no wind -- at least no wind detectable by the use of some wind flags. In other words, the alternative is to shoot when wind flags confirm there is an absence of air movement between shooter and target.

Below is a chart showing the results of six different lots of ammo shot this season with the same rifle. Each set of ten ten-shot groups was shot at a different time. All were shot when wind flags indicated relatively calm conditions, but not necessarily equally calm. The results obviously show some sets of ten-shot groups were shot in conditions in which wind movement was obviously not the same. Of course it's possible that some group sizes were the result of shooter error.

While four of the six lots tested had a ten group average under 1" and only two did not, I don't think CX 097 could achieve a sub-1" ten group average with my rifle under any outdoor conditions.



To continue with air movement, it would be much more straightforward to shoot at a range where wind was constant in direction and speed. Unfortunately that doesn't happen, especiallly at smaller ranges in which air movement changes direction and speed often. This is characteristic of the 100 yard maximum range at which I shoot. I use three flags at 100 yards, and when conditions are best there is no motion detectable in the flags. When there is air movement, sometimes only one flag shows it, sometimes two of three, sometimes all three. To make things more challenging, sometimes one flag can be limp while the other two show air movement in opposite directions.

Shooting .22LR outdoors at 100 yards for best accuracy performance is not easy. When you see group location move or migrate between bulls, it can be the result of changing air movements, which can be hard to detect, or the result of moving the rifle/rest to a new POA. When this happens I'm often unsure of which is the cause. As a result, my priority is seeing how well thee ammo groups at 100 yards, rather than trying to center the group on the bull.

On top of that, when shooting different lots of ammo, as I have been doing this season, it can take a while to determine whether the rifle and ammo are zeroed to the POA. I usually don't bother as I'm not shooting for score on the targets used in the challenge and on this thread. My concern is more with precision when comparing ammo performance.

There is a better method for assessing performance than simply measuring the group size. It is calculating Average to Center. It's also known as "average group radius" or "mean radius". It's the average distance of all the shots in a group from the center of that group.

To give a brief illustration of this, consider two groups with the same overall group size. One group has all ten rounds relatively evenly distributed within the imaginary circle around the group. The other has eight or nine shots all very close to each other, with one or two shots away from the majority. The second group will have a smaller average to center measurement, which reflects greater precision.

The problem with obtaining Average to Center measurements is that it is necessary to use some software to avoid otherwise tedious calculations. This can be done using software such as OnTarget, which is available online. No doubt there are other programs or ballistics calculators that will calculate average to center.

For a few more details on Average to Center measurement, see https://www.rimfirecentral.com/threads/understanding-the-average-to-center-measurement.512993/
 
Those are some interesting observations Glenn.

Rare are the days when there is no wind at my rimfire range. So, I am usually forced to shoot in some wind. A tailwind is the worst and that is what I was dealing with during the 100 m challenge. Wind comes down from the roof of the shooting shed. Wind goes down range along the left side but hits a berm on the right side that causes a vortex at around the 50 m mark, which means the air is going right to left at 50 m but left to right at 100 m.

I use 4 wind flags on the way down, read the mirage, read the leaves and grass and even the breeze as it passes by my cheek. I don't try and shoot when there is no wind, it just isn't possible, so I send the rounds between wind gusts - as I see and feel that conditions are stabilizing.

I do not agree that one can only shoot well with wind flags. I have shot just as well or better with no wind flags, if I shoot when the wind is from a certain direction and a certain speed. Knowing when to shoot is important it is true, but knowing when not to shoot is even more important.

The limiting factor for me at this time is my equipment. I am right at the limit of what a factory T1X will do. There is about another .1 or .2 in the rifle based on my experience over the past several years and that would be on a perfect day, using my best ammo (which I am not willing to do).
 
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