Interest in 100 yard .22LR challenge?

That is normal for those ammos. SK LRM isn't really any better (in fact it is one of the worst for temp sensitivity in my rifles) or SK Biathlon. The only ammos that perform well in my rifles below 5 degrees are the higher end Eley and Eley Biathlons.

I find my barrels have all preferred the 'slower' class of SK/Lapua ammo in the heat... biathlon ammo in the cold. Biathlon ammo shoots like crap in the heat in these same barrels.

So, my guess is that a fast load in the heat may just become a 'slower' load in the cold... why I also suggest HV ammo which have shown dramatic improvements in the cold.

YMMV

Jerry
 
Just found the printed page of velocity testing from the spring. When various Eley have been taken apart, there was no visible change to the powder used and no change in weight of the powders used. Specially developed powder may only be a selling feature or it is a company secret shipped in boxcars. All of my rifles were used one week after another.
10/22
Tenex Biathlon 1053 fps: 1114 - 1126
Rem. Eley Match 1062: 1071 - 1101
Lapua polar Biathlon: 1024 - 1080
Eley Match Biathlon 1085: 1089 - 1108
Eley Tenex Biathlon 1091: 1105 - 1130

Cooper JSR
Eley Tenex Biathlon 1091: 1100 - 1130
Rem Eley Match 1062: 1076 - 1087
Eley Match Biathlon 1085: 1097 - 1126

Cooper Montana Varminter
Eley Tenex Biathlon 1091: 1089 - 1156
Eley Match Biathlon 1085: 1083 - 1091
Eley Tenex Biathlon 1053: 1112 - 1120
Rem Eley Match 1062: 1066 - 1076
Lapua Polar Biathlon: 1009 - 1025

Remington 40XB with a 26" Lilja barrel
Eley Match Biathlon 1085: 1076 - 1104
Eley Tenex Biathlon 1053: 1112 - 1133
Eley Tenex Biathlon 1091: 1104 - 1118
Rem Eley Match 1062: 1062 - 1083
Lapua Polar Biathlon: 1027 - 1061

The 1053 fps varied 8, 12 and 21
The 1085 varied 8, 15, 29 and 28
The 1091 varied 25, 30, 67 and 14
The 1062 varied 18, 30, 11 and 10.
Lapua Polar Biathlon: 16, 56 and 34

There was other ammo tested but nothing used in competition. There are some missing lots probably a time issue or did not have any that night.
There was no cleaning between brands but the only big difference was the Lapua. Eley seems similar but the claim for the biathlon stuff is "Specially Formulated".
A Chrony was used at less that 10 feet.
 
I find my barrels have all preferred the 'slower' class of SK/Lapua ammo in the heat... biathlon ammo in the cold. Biathlon ammo shoots like crap in the heat in these same barrels.

So, my guess is that a fast load in the heat may just become a 'slower' load in the cold... why I also suggest HV ammo which have shown dramatic improvements in the cold.

YMMV

Jerry

That’s interesting about the HV ammo in the cold. I’ve got some SK HV Match that was unimpressive in the warm. I’ll try it for practice ammo this winter.
 
I find my barrels have all preferred the 'slower' class of SK/Lapua ammo in the heat... biathlon ammo in the cold. Biathlon ammo shoots like crap in the heat in these same barrels.

So, my guess is that a fast load in the heat may just become a 'slower' load in the cold... why I also suggest HV ammo which have shown dramatic improvements in the cold.

YMMV

Jerry

That's possible I suppose, I just haven't seen it in my rifles. The HVs just won't perform in my rifles in the cold. I will shoot down to -20 C and have found the Eleys perform the best.

That is not to say some other rifle won't like something else.
 
Just found the printed page of velocity testing from the spring. When various Eley have been taken apart, there was no visible change to the powder used and no change in weight of the powders used. Specially developed powder may only be a selling feature or it is a company secret shipped in boxcars. All of my rifles were used one week after another.
10/22
Tenex Biathlon 1053 fps: 1114 - 1126
Rem. Eley Match 1062: 1071 - 1101
Lapua polar Biathlon: 1024 - 1080
Eley Match Biathlon 1085: 1089 - 1108
Eley Tenex Biathlon 1091: 1105 - 1130

Cooper JSR
Eley Tenex Biathlon 1091: 1100 - 1130
Rem Eley Match 1062: 1076 - 1087
Eley Match Biathlon 1085: 1097 - 1126

Cooper Montana Varminter
Eley Tenex Biathlon 1091: 1089 - 1156
Eley Match Biathlon 1085: 1083 - 1091
Eley Tenex Biathlon 1053: 1112 - 1120
Rem Eley Match 1062: 1066 - 1076
Lapua Polar Biathlon: 1009 - 1025

Remington 40XB with a 26" Lilja barrel
Eley Match Biathlon 1085: 1076 - 1104
Eley Tenex Biathlon 1053: 1112 - 1133
Eley Tenex Biathlon 1091: 1104 - 1118
Rem Eley Match 1062: 1062 - 1083
Lapua Polar Biathlon: 1027 - 1061

The 1053 fps varied 8, 12 and 21
The 1085 varied 8, 15, 29 and 28
The 1091 varied 25, 30, 67 and 14
The 1062 varied 18, 30, 11 and 10.
Lapua Polar Biathlon: 16, 56 and 34

There was other ammo tested but nothing used in competition. There are some missing lots probably a time issue or did not have any that night.
There was no cleaning between brands but the only big difference was the Lapua. Eley seems similar but the claim for the biathlon stuff is "Specially Formulated".
A Chrony was used at less that 10 feet.

Now that is interesting. Do you suppose that there is any change to the amount or formulation of the primer compound in the Biathlon ammos?
My last Lot of Match Biathlon - 1110, was running about 1172 average at 20 C.
Although Eley does claim a reduced diameter of the rounds and different lube as well for their biathlon ammo.
 
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That is normal for those ammos. SK LRM isn't really any better (in fact it is one of the worst for temp sensitivity in my rifles) or SK Biathlon. The only ammos that perform well in my rifles below 5 degrees are the higher end Eley and Eley Biathlons.

Thanks, I wish I could buy boxes of ammo to test. I have to commit to buying bricks and road trip to get them. If the gun grouped those like it did today it would be a total waste of money.
 
In colder temperatures, ammo MV slows. In warmer temps, it's faster.

Now that is interesting. Do you suppose that there is any change to the amount or formulation of the primer compound in the Biathlon ammos?
My last Lot of Match Biathlon - 1110, was running about 1172 average at 20 C.
Although Eley does claim a reduced diameter of the rounds and different lube as well for their biathlon ammo.

I chronographed some Eley today and the other day. I used the same lots in two rifles. Both lots were faster than advertised (the average MV on the box).

Based on my small sample of lots tested, compared to the Lapua chronographed earlier this year, Eley may on average be a faster ammo.
 
In colder temperatures, ammo MV slows. In warmer temps, it's faster.



I chronographed some Eley today and the other day. I used the same lots in two rifles. Both lots were faster than advertised (the average MV on the box).

Based on my small sample of lots tested, compared to the Lapua chronographed earlier this year, Eley may on average be a faster ammo.

Interesting. Yes in the cold the MV slows down.
I have also noted that my rifles do not seem to like ammos with a slower MV - for instance it appears that ammo rated at 1030 will not perform as well as one rated at 1060 and above.
Measured MV (with a Magnetospeed) of 1080 or higher seems to perform best, assuming it is a decent lot to begin with, regardless of the temperature.
 
Interesting. Yes in the cold the MV slows down.
I have also noted that my rifles do not seem to like ammos with a slower MV - for instance it appears that ammo rated at 1030 will not perform as well as one rated at 1060 and above.
Measured MV (with a Magnetospeed) of 1080 or higher seems to perform best, assuming it is a decent lot to begin with, regardless of the temperature.

my barrels are the opposite.. they like the slower speed and don't shoot well with the faster match ammos. So in the cold, I expect the 'fast' ammo to become 'slow' ammo.

You may need to start with HV ammo like maybe an ELEY force for the cold temps if you can't find a biathlon ammo to work.

More testing ... for me, I am not a fan of shooting in the cold anymore so will enjoy the off season.

Jerry
 
my barrels are the opposite.. they like the slower speed and don't shoot well with the faster match ammos. So in the cold, I expect the 'fast' ammo to become 'slow' ammo.

You may need to start with HV ammo like maybe an ELEY force for the cold temps if you can't find a biathlon ammo to work.

More testing ... for me, I am not a fan of shooting in the cold anymore so will enjoy the off season.

Jerry

It's not like I have to find ammo or do more testing.
I have already done that previously and have the ammo at hand.
 
The testing was done more so to check rifle to rifle variations.
Eley says "Specially Formulated" which shall remain a company secret . . .
While formulated for biathlon competition. there are limits as competitions are cancelled when the temperature gets too cold.

At Mission, both Silhouette and the 100/200 metre run all year and the stove is used when the temperature gets near zero.
 
Interesting. Yes in the cold the MV slows down.
I have also noted that my rifles do not seem to like ammos with a slower MV - for instance it appears that ammo rated at 1030 will not perform as well as one rated at 1060 and above.
Measured MV (with a Magnetospeed) of 1080 or higher seems to perform best, assuming it is a decent lot to begin with, regardless of the temperature.

As long as .22LR match ammo MV is within usual SV range -- about 1030 - 1100 fps -- and without a wide extreme spreead, rifle performance will not be dependent on the ammo's average MV. In other words, the ammo shoots, or it doesn't. When it doesn't perform, it's because it's not a good lot.
 
As long as .22LR match ammo MV is within usual SV range -- about 1030 - 1100 fps -- and without a wide extreme spreead, rifle performance will not be dependent on the ammo's average MV. In other words, the ammo shoots, or it doesn't. When it doesn't perform, it's because it's not a good lot.

I can't say that I agree with that statement. I have done enough testing of my rifles and ammo to know better. My rifles will perform better with MV within a certain range and I have verified that to my satisfaction.
Also, Lot testing is a very subjective issue. What is a good Lot in your rifle might not be a good Lot in my rifles.
 
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Eley match grades in the 1040-1050's range and anything over 1070 did not appear to perform as good in my Remington as stuff in the 1060's.
When I tested the last time the tests were conducted using three lots listed at 1062 and one at 1065.
Two of the 1062's were very close and I picked the one that had one group slightly over 1" versus the other which had two.
Both lots were successive . . . 02209 and 02210. The 02209 as purchased in various amounts depending when another shooter wanted to be part of an order; All was bought from Target Shooting Products and probably around 10,000 rounds in total. The others total about 5000.
The Anschutz shows a preference to 1067 fps and it has been used at 50 yards as well as 100 and 200 metres.
The Coopers were used last winter and Eley biathlon in the 1053 (Chrony at 1100), 1085 and 1091 showed promise.
With the velocities saved to a Word Document I will have to see if there is more to be gained by comparing using cut and paste.
Right now it is raining on the Wet Coast and the temp is around 4 degrees.
With the colder weather the results will be monitored to se if any further information can be had.
 
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They are kind of lined up now but you will get the idea.
All are Eley with the 1053, 1085 and 1091 being Biathlon and the 1062 is Remington Eley Match.
These are the varieties used in competition.

1053 Ruger. 1110, 1126, 1114, 1118, 1120, 1116
Cooper V. 1120, 1112, 1115, 1120, 1113
Remington 1133, 1120, 1123, 1112, 1119


1085 Ruger 1095, 1089, 1103, 1094, 1104, 1093, 1093, 1095, 1108
JSR 1126, 1116, 1097, 1105, 1113
Varminter 1091, 1084, 1091, 1084, 1083
Remington 1076, 1076, 1093, 1103, 1104

1091 Ruger 1120, 1116, 1113, 1121,1105, 1125, 1124, 1130, 1128, 1128
JSR 1130, 1112, 1105, 1104, 1100
Varminter 1156, 1103, 1089, 1105, 1104
Remington 1118, 1109, 1114, 1104, 1110

1062 Ruger 1081, 1071, 1093, 1096, 1083, 1091, 1101, 1081, 1082, 1084
JSR 1077, 1077, 1081, 1087, 1079, 1076
Varminter 1066, 1073, 1072, 1076, 1073
Remington 1079, 1068, 1062, 1076, 1070, 1080, 1073, 1077, 1066,1065, 1071, 1083
 
I can't say that I agree with that statement. I have done enough testing of my rifles and ammo to know better. My rifles will perform better with MV within a certain range and I have verified that to my satisfaction.
Also, Lot testing is a very subjective issue. What is a good Lot in your rifle might not be a good Lot in my rifles.

It's correct to that a lot that shoots well in one rifle may not shoot as well in others.

_________________________

For readers in general, serious, experienced BR shooters select their .22LR match ammo based on performance alone. The "published" MV's have no bearing on their ammo selection. They don't look for ammo with a certain published MV because they realize that match ammo lots with what is supposed to be the same MV may actually perform differently.

Why?

The vast majority of Eley standard rifle match .22LR lots have "published" MVs between about 1050 fps to about 1080 fps, with most around the middle of that range. The same is true for Lapua standard rifle .22LR match ammo.

It's important to appreciate that the actual MV will vary from one rifle to the next. That is to say, two different rifles can easily produce significantly different average MVs with the same lot of ammo.

It's not unusual for two different barrels of the same length made by the same manufacturer to produce different MVs for the same lots of ammo. What matters for MV are bore characteristics. Some barrels produce slower MVs, some faster. No one can know if a barrel is slower, faster or in between until the rifle is chronographed and compared to other barrels with the same lots of ammo.

To further complicate things, two different lots with the same "published" MVs may actually have different MVs in the same rifle. In other words, two lots of Eley (or Lapua) that ostensibly have the same MV may yield different MVs out of the same barrel.

It's not easy to get ammo that shoots to the "published" MV. The actual MV in any given rifle remains unknown until it is chronographed. Shooters would be well-advised to avoid paying attention to ammo velocities obtained from the box or lot number. There are ammo lots that are slower that will shoot well and there are lots that are faster that will also shoot well in the same rifle.
 
Why does one Lot of ammo perform better than another in a dynamic system? It is not just all about quality control and low ES and SD. A particular lot of ammo may more closely match the harmonics of the rifle system better than another Lot.
However, the harmonics of many rifles can be adjusted or tweaked to allow different Lots of ammo to perform in an excellent manner, not just one specific lot.
If this was not true then a Lot of ammo that performed well in one rifle should perform just as well in any number of rifles. Singling out only one variable of a dynamic system does not provide a complete picture of what is truly happening.

For readers in general, experienced, serious BR shooters do not use rifles or barrels that come from certain manufacturers. They use custom actions and barrels with specially cut chambers and leades. Not the generic rifles that we are discussing here.
 
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I doubt if we will solve the issue here.
With the advent of Black Powder, the first "Dynamic System" was a mortar, then cannons, then firearms . . . and here we are today.
As a youth, my father's Cooey was a tad big for me but I learned about canting. Part of the science we try to overcome with levels.
Regardless, to each their own but I have learned more by achieving to get better through Customizing and testing ammunition.
Many problems are not just generic rifles but trying to get results with generic ammunition.
Through all this we are still trying to educate and develop experiences that many did not know exist.
The results of the 100 yard/metre challenge does encourage a level of participation by those that really had no idea what they, their rifle or ammunition was capable of.
Sharing the pride of a new shooter getting three sub-2" groups is as important to me as my grandson beating me with my own rifles.
 
Why does one Lot of ammo perform better than another in a dynamic system? It is not just all about quality control and low ES and SD. A particular lot of ammo may more closely match the harmonics of the rifle system better than another Lot.
However, the harmonics of many rifles can be adjusted or tweaked to allow different Lots of ammo to perform in an excellent manner, not just one specific lot.
If this was not true then a Lot of ammo that performed well in one rifle should perform just as well in any number of rifles. Singling out only one variable of a dynamic system does not provide a complete picture of what is truly happening.

It's indisputable that high levels of quality control are required in the production of good ammo (the alternative would be low level quality control?). It's correct, however, that low ES and SD don't guarantee results. There's much more to excellent performing .22LR match ammo than MV characterisitics.

Why aren't ES and SD the only factors that determine performance?

The first and most obvious reason is that unless the ammo is chronographed, it's not possible to know anything about ES and SD. Since these are not guarantors of excellent precision/accuracy, it's not possible to confirm anything about MV characteristics by target results alone. To put this another way, a lot of ammo with a smaller ES and SD may be outperformed by a lot with numbers that are larger.

What are other important factors involved in performance?

The bullet itself is an important component in the performance of the cartridge. It's a considerable challenge for manufacturers to produce soft lead .22LR match bullets that are uniformly perfect. They can vary in size (e.g. diameter and length) and weight. They can vary in uniformity of the all-important heel -- an imperfection in which can contribute to an unanticipated trajectory/flight path.

In addition to these, and sometimes associated with them, is the bullet's center of gravity. Unlike jacketed CF bullets, soft lead projectiles like .22LR bullets and lead air rifle pellets are much more difficult to manufacture with little or no Cg offset. Without actual testing, it's impossible for the average shooter to determine which lots have more or less Cg offset. Cg offset may help explain why some lots of the very same variety of ammo -- e.g. Center X or Midas + -- will perform differently as distance increases, even when their performance is virtually identical at closer ones. In other words, two lots of CX may shoot equally well at 50 but one of them may have more group dispersion as distance increases.

Some lots of the same variety of ammo -- CX, M+, Match, or Tenex for example -- are better than others because they have more consistent components such as bullets and casings. Some have more consistent priming, which is usually a greater source of MV irregularity than propellant levels because the "powder" volume is easier to get right in production than priming. Some lots also have more consistent loading, which is the process of putting together the primed and powdered brass with the bullets. Depth of seating and crimping consistency are important for accuracy performance. When crimping is inconsistent, all bets should be off.

The factors outlined above are all important to .22LR match ammo that performs well. Not every lot of even the same variety of ammo is equal. Unknown and unseen differences between lots help explain why there are differences in performance from lot-to-lot. They have nothing to do with differences in average MV.
_______________________________

Regarding matching the "harmonics of the rifle system," it's often given as an explanation for things that are not obvious or are easily misunderstood. It's a broad overgeneralization to claim that one lot "may more closely match the harmonics of the rifle system better than another Lot".

Rifle harmonics are not not simply about MV or MV averages. Most .22LR match ammo lots have considerable overlap in ES (they are for the most part nominally in the 1050 to 1080 fps range) so there aren't great differences in harmonics to be found there.

While rifle harmonics generally refer to the wave motion induced in the barrel with each shot, vibrations that change minutely with ammo of different velocities, there are other important factors that can significantly affect a rifle's harmonics. Consistent harmonics are what's crucial for consistent performance.

Beyond barrel length and diameter, both of which remain consistent, rifle harmonics are changed by other factors. Among the basics is the shooting bench, which must be very solid in order to provide the basis for consistent harmonics. Rifle-to-rest set up and positioning must be consistent from shot-to-shot. When that's not consistent, neither are harmonics. In this vein, rifle hold is important and must be exactly the same from shot-to-shot. Most BR shooters don't touch the rifle except to activate the trigger. Removing the element of hold is the only way to come close to being consistent.

Differences in the factors referred to above may explain why some shooters who lot test at testing facilities where barreled actions are shot in a vise/fixture find that results at the range may not match those obtained during testing.

How are harmonics of a rifle tweaked? Shooters may try things like changing the action screw torque, making them looser or tighter or making the front screw tighter or looser than the rear. They may try to change their grip, trying a tight, "death" grip, or a looser grip. They may add or alter a weight on the barrel (not necessarily but often a tuner).

Some of these methods may work. The important question is do they work consistently? None of the will improve a poor shooting lot of ammo, jcust as a top tier rifle/barrel can't make inconsistent ammo into something else, like wine out of vinegar.

Barrel tuners are the most important tool for using harmonics to advantage. Because most lots of match ammo have a great deal of ES overlap, once a shooter has made correct tuner adjustments, little if any further adjustment is usually necessary to optimize the performance.

It's worth repeating that tuners give a relatively small level of improvement to ammo that already shoots very well. They don't change poorly shooting ammo into gold. They don't have the magic that will shrink groups by half or other similar claims that are often posted in fits of misinformation. They don't turn average, mass produced factory barrels into something else. They will not make an average rifle shooting average match ammo into something else.

While the most serious competitve BR shooters use custom barrels with specific chambers, it's worth keeping in mind that none of these rigs can outshoot the ammo they are given. They cannot make a poorly shooting lot into something different. What they can do is have the potential to get the best performance possible out of match ammo.
 
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Here's the abridged version of why "harmonics" doesn't explain why one lot shoots better than another. No lot has muzzle velocities that are unique.

__________________

Different lots shoot differently because they have differences in ammo physical characteristics, for example in bullets, priming, and crimping.

Tuners can be most effective at consistently changing barrel harmonics for performance improvement when rifle set-up/hold doesn't vary from shot-to-shot and only when using ammo that shoots well in the tuner-less barrel. There are obvious implications for using tuners off the bench.
 
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