Interesting post from the owner or manager of a major gun range in Las Vegas

doing the math
if he rents 1 gun 10 times in a 10 hour day and each customer fires 50 rounds
50 x 10=500 x 21 days =10500 rounds in 3 weeks , and that is why he wants to change springs every 3 weeks

:) he prob runs 24/7 so he could easy do a lot more
 
Does anyone track the round count through their own pistols?
I have a hard enough time these days to book time to go shooting, nevermind ticking off how many rounds I've tallied.

I do, only because I got to start at 0 and its easy to count boxes. 12g and the 7.62s and old rifles don't get counted.
 
Well in his case you could not be more wrong. He states his Glocks get their springs changed every 30 days and in one post suggests he is about to reduce the time to every three weeks in an effort to reduce the amount of failures. I have never read where Glock requires changing the springs out on their guns every 30 days as a suggested time interval.

I am not sure why a high volume gun range would abuse their gun inventory. It makes no sense. It is the high usage that wears on the guns. I doubt their are many here who would claim to have shot 100,000 rounds in any one of their guns.

Take Care

Bob

Wow, just wow. The replacement interval for parts Bob is based on round count, not clock time, I thought you might have known that but I guess not..

Abusing rental guns is not by design it is by the numbers. Renting a pistol until failure is par for the course. The Beretta you mention as an example consumed 150,000 rounds. With an average price of say $150/1000 (cheap Tula steel cased) that gun generated $22,500 in revenue for a pistol that costs around $600 to replace. The gun amounts to a cost of 3% of its total generated revenue from ammo alone. The Glock example at a failure point of 30,000 rounds works out to $4500 in ammo revenue for a $450 pistol, which are apparently being repaired under warranty at no cost. Guns are cheap in the rental market and waiting for parts or warranty costs revenue, replacing it with another gun is easy and hassle free. We haven't factored in day passes or other items purchased. With the cost of guns low and in many cases their use being near non stop, there is little desire nor time to do regular maintenance. Use them to failure then replace.
 
Wow, just wow. The replacement interval for parts Bob is based on round count, not clock time, I thought you might have known that but I guess not..

Abusing rental guns is not by design it is by the numbers. Renting a pistol until failure is par for the course. The Beretta you mention as an example consumed 150,000 rounds. With an average price of say $150/1000 (cheap Tula steel cased) that gun generated $22,500 in revenue for a pistol that costs around $600 to replace. The gun amounts to a cost of 3% of its total generated revenue from ammo alone. The Glock example at a failure point of 30,000 rounds works out to $4500 in ammo revenue for a $450 pistol, which are apparently being repaired under warranty at no cost. Guns are cheap in the rental market and waiting for parts or warranty costs revenue, replacing it with another gun is easy and hassle free. We haven't factored in day passes or other items purchased. With the cost of guns low and in many cases their use being near non stop, there is little desire nor time to do regular maintenance. Use them to failure then replace.

Interesting observations KiddX. I wonder what the man's armourer does all day with his and his staff's time.

Renting the guns out until they fail is quite insightful, you might have added "termial" failure. His armourers would be charged with maintaining the fleet until slides or frames crack or as was the case with the S&W 500 before a catastrophic failure takes place. Such failures are terminal and the guns have to be replaced.

He isn't making money when the guns are down for maintenance and he makes less when the guns are down due to premature breakage. He obviously is aware of this and it a concern since he is reducing the rotation time for the Gen 4 pistols from monthly to three weeks and I also suspect he has enough inventory to do the replacements within the 5K suggested period. He is trying to reduce their failure by increasing his maintenance. He is not, as you say renting then out until they fail although ultimately usage is what ultimately wears out the guns. That would make little business sense given his volume of business. The guns do ultimately fail. Some quicker than others. To him it just the cost of doing business.

Based upon your math I suspect you know very little about the workings of his range. If you took the time to read the thread as opposed to getting into a mindless discussion of what you think you know about managing a commercial gun range particularly in another country you might actually learn something. I did. I am quite confident the equivalent to his operation located in Los Vegas cannot be found anywhere in Canada. I know of no 24 hour, seven day a week operations up here. Do you? Dunn and Bradstreet have the info on what his operating ratios should be and judging from his posts I suspect he operates well above the average.

Having spent some time in Commercial Banking I think I have a pretty decent idea on the economics involved in firearm ranges and where their revenue opportunities lie. If you read the thread the owner tells you what guns are in demand and what drives the interest in the guns. He also discusses his maintenance regimen in a few posts.

Why don't you read the entire thread as most of the folks who replied on the thread did and do and then reflect on what you thought you new and what you learn new from the thread.

I had heard rumours of FBI contract slides having issues but noting as informative as the Gen 4 slides breaking prematurely. That might explain why the Gen 5 slides have been reinforced near the muzzle and redesigned behind the breach area. If you page through the thread you will see pictures of the areas where failures are occurring in the Gen4 slides. One slide apparently broke at the muzzle in the first 30 days.

Take Care

Bob
ps revenue kiddx is not profit Based on your numbers the company would lose $600 or approx. $200 per year on the gun since his revenues would just cover the cost of his ammo leaving nothing for the cost of the gun.

150,000 rds equals a cost of $22,500 you tell us. You then tell us total revenue generated according to you $22,500 just enough to pay for the ammo. You haven't dealt with his employee costs, nor the heat/air conditioning, lighting, maintenance on his leasehold improvements and the capital cost of the firearm. Your 3% figure is an interesting math result but doesn't mean much.

pps Your business model has some serious flaws. :>
 
My son was there this summer and had a blast, pardon the pun. Lots of super cool stuff. Thanks for posting the video. No reference to cheap Tula ammo??? LOL

Given the high round count most of their guns experience it is difficult to take any of the data and relate it to what we might experience in the recreational environment most here experience.

Take Care

Bob
 
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Interesting observations KiddX. I wonder what the man's armourer does all day with his and his staff's time.
Who said anything about a full time armourer? Would be wise to a a gun savvy individual or a trained gunsmith onsite but it isn't required.
Renting the guns out until they fail is quite insightful, you might have added "termial" failure. His armourers would be charged with maintaining the fleet until slides or frames crack or as was the case with the S&W 500 before a catastrophic failure takes place. Such failures are terminal and the guns have to be replaced.
I never said maintenance was neglected as a whole, what I'm saying is that keeping up with suggested levels of maintenance is not a priority as the guns make more money than they're worth. The cost of the firearms is also a tax write off.
He isn't making money when the guns are down for maintenance and he makes less when the guns are down due to premature breakage. He obviously is aware of this and it a concern since he is reducing the rotation time for the Gen 4 pistols from monthly to three weeks and I also suspect he has enough inventory to do the replacements within the 5K suggested period. He is trying to reduce their failure by increasing his maintenance. He is not, as you say renting then out until they fail although ultimately usage is what ultimately wears out the guns. That would make little business sense given his volume of business. The guns do ultimately fail. Some quicker than others. To him it just the cost of doing business.
When the gun is down it is easier to replace it with another than wait for the repair, exotic or rare guns being the exception.
Based upon your math I suspect you know very little about the workings of his range. If you took the time to read the thread as opposed to getting into a mindless discussion of what you think you know about managing a commercial gun range particularly in another country you might actually learn something. I did. I am quite confident the equivalent to his operation located in Los Vegas cannot be found anywhere in Canada. I know of no 24 hour, seven day a week operations up here. Do you? Dunn and Bradstreet have the info on what his operating ratios should be and judging from his posts I suspect he operates well above the average.

Having spent some time in Commercial Banking I think I have a pretty decent idea on the economics involved in firearm ranges and where their revenue opportunities lie. If you read the thread the owner you what guns are in demand and what drives the interest in the guns. He also discusses his maintenance regimen in a few posts.

Why don't you read the entire thread as most of the folks who replied on the thread did and do and then reflect on what you thought you new and what you learn new from the thread.
I've read the thread, in fact I read it long before it was posted here. Nothing exciting or eye opening in it.
I had heard rumours of FBI contract slides having issues but noting as informative as the Gen 4 slides breaking prematurely. That might explain why the Gen 5 slides have been reinforced near the muzzle and redesigned behind the breach area. If you page through the thread you will see pictures of the areas where failures are occurring in the Gen4 slides. One slide apparently broke at the muzzle in the first 30 days.

Take Care

Bob
ps revenue kiddx is not profit Based on your numbers the company would lose $600 or approx. $200 per year on the gun since his revenues would just cover the cost of his ammo leaving nothing for the cost of the gun.
What you fail to see is that the numbers I quoted were with the cheapest retail ammo I could find with a quick google search. The ammo was located at luckygunner.com I'm sure the range charges far more than the retail cost of cheap Tula ammo and I'm sure they don't pay anywhere near retail for their ammo. I am well aware revenue is not profit, hence why I used the word revenue.
150,000 rds equals a cost of $22,500 you tell us. You then tell us total revenue generated according to you $22,500 just enough to pay for the ammo. You haven't dealt with his employee costs, nor the heat/air conditioning, lighting, maintenance on his leasehold improvements and the capital cost of the firearm. Your 3% figure is an interesting math result but doesn't mean much.
Nowhere did I say the total revenue was $22,500. I said the revenue generated by 150,000 rounds was $22,500 for that pistol.I'm illustrating the revenue generated by the ammo consumed through the pistol(and a possible amount based on fabricated ammo value). If you had read my post I indicated that revenue generated by the day pass/rental fee and other sales like targets, special packages and souvenirs were not accounted for. The wages of employees, the cost to operate the location and the cost of the gun(s) are all tax deductions against his bottom line. If there was no money in the business there wouldn't be anyone in the business.

I have worked in two large scale Canadian shops/ranges. I am quite well aware of how the business is run in this country and where the money lies. Have you worked at a range in Canada Bob??

pps Your business model has some serious flaws. :>

IN the green.
 
He is still maybe living in his mommy's basement.

I know you likely worked at the Shooting edge in Calgary and that operation is no where near what the one in Los Vegas is. You likely are the clerk who got fired for stealing. You likely used to go by the name TDC. You also most certainly had no access to the owners books and really have no idea what his revenue streams look like. Your example remains nonsensical.

Take Care

Bob
 
He is still maybe living in his mommy's basement.

I know you likely worked at the Shooting edge in Calgary and that operation is no where near what the one in Los Vegas is. You likely are the clerk who got fired for stealing. You likely used to go by the name TDC. You also most certainly had no access to the owners books and really have no idea what his revenue streams look like. Your example remains nonsensical.

Take Care

Bob

So I take it you've never worked in a range? Thanks for confirming that. Your knowledge and experience would be around zero.
 
So I take it you've never worked in a range? Thanks for confirming that. Your knowledge and experience would be around zero.

Yes KIDX I hardly know anything about rental companies, corporate margins and commercial financing I spent 35 years in the game and really just never got the hang of it. You on the other hand worked at a Clerk for a short period of time at The Shooting Edge in Calgary prior to being relieved of your duties. Managing $500MM Commercial Portfolio hardly ever required me to analysis retail, service and manufacturing corporate financial statements along with management and their business models. I never worked the front desk of a hotel either but I know where the hotel makes their money and where they don't.

What I did seem to know and you didn't is the operation in Vegas doesn't neglect their inventory of firearms like you seemed to think was the proper business model. Then again I shouldn't introduce "think" and KiddX in the same sentence. TDC aka KIDDX when are you going to grow up. You still sound like a spanked teenager and you just got to be in your 30's by now. Stick to peddling your Glock love, you do better at that then analyzing business models.

Take Care

Bob
 
Yes KIDX I hardly know anything about rental companies, corporate margins and commercial financing I spent 35 years in the game and really just never got the hang of it.

I'm not getting into the rest of the personal business, but SOP for a rental company is to rigidly track the use of their products to ensure minimal downtime. I don't agree with very much of what Kidd X says, but if Glock says to replace recoil springs every 5k, and BFV figures they're putting double or triple that down range over the course of a month before replacing that part they're neglecting the guns. The owner even acknowledges about shortening the time between replacements because they suspect it's causing the slide issues, but they still don't come anywhere near the recommended interval. A gun off the line costs more than recoil spring replacement.
 
rkm456 you make a good point. I would assume he has to balance his maintenance regimen with demands on his armourers time. Glock replaces his broken gun under warranty so in some respects that would offset some of the time spent maintaining the pistols. From what little we know of his operation, the video was useful, I suspect his handgun rental revenue pales in comparison to his full auto inventory, which might be even higher maintenance due to higher demand. I would defer to his business acumen. I suspect he runs an efficient operation.

I was surprised though, the rather short time and usage interval for the Glock slides to break. Glock apparently has reinforced the areas of concern in the Gen4, with changes to the side in their Gen 5. I would have thought he would see more frame cracks. Maybe it is just the slide issues that caught my eye. The thread is long but it does contain a lot if interesting unfiltered info.

With taking to read through. I doubt many of us would ever out that man rounds through our favourite boom stick in our life time or the next.

Take Care

Bob
 
rkm456 you make a good point. I would assume he has to balance his maintenance regimen with demands on his armourers time. Glock replaces his broken gun under warranty so in some respects that would offset some of the time spent maintaining the pistols. From what little we know of his operation, the video was useful, I suspect his handgun rental revenue pales in comparison to his full auto inventory, which might be even higher maintenance due to higher demand. I would defer to his business acumen. I suspect he runs an efficient operation.

I was surprised though, the rather short time and usage interval for the Glock slides to break. Glock apparently has reinforced the areas of concern in the Gen4, with changes to the side in their Gen 5. I would have thought he would see more frame cracks. Maybe it is just the slide issues that caught my eye. The thread is long but it does contain a lot if interesting unfiltered info.

With taking to read through. I doubt many of us would ever out that man rounds through our favourite boom stick in our life time or the next.

Take Care

Bob

Glock does replace his broken guns, but he needs to buy a replacement while that repair/replacement is happening. They say the guns are cleaned every week, I'm not sure why they wouldn't just make replacing the recoil spring part of that service seeing as it's removed to clean anyways. I didn't realize they had reinforced anything on the Gen 5 slides, I was under the impression they just beveled the front. Admittedly, I haven't paid close attention to the Gen 5 because I honestly don't care. If I were buying a Glock today it'd probably be a Gen 5, but I've got no reason to replace my Gen 4.

Regarding us never putting that many rounds through a gun, you're probably right, although for my 30+ year old 1911, I'll never know how many rounds were put through it, and I've definitely fired my fair share. I do however shoot with one guy approaching 10k on his Legion, lol.
 
Glock does replace his broken guns, but he needs to buy a replacement while that repair/replacement is happening. They say the guns are cleaned every week, I'm not sure why they wouldn't just make replacing the recoil spring part of that service seeing as it's removed to clean anyways. I didn't realize they had reinforced anything on the Gen 5 slides, I was under the impression they just beveled the front. Admittedly, I haven't paid close attention to the Gen 5 because I honestly don't care. If I were buying a Glock today it'd probably be a Gen 5, but I've got no reason to replace my Gen 4.

Regarding us never putting that many rounds through a gun, you're probably right, although for my 30+ year old 1911, I'll never know how many rounds were put through it, and I've definitely fired my fair share. I do however shoot with one guy approaching 10k on his Legion, lol.

Good point. From his posts I didn't get the impression the Glocks were getting the usage alluded to in the video. I am confident he has a good relationship with Glock and I suspect they have had some input into his maintenance schedule. I agree if he is cleaning the guns weekly, I don't recall reading that in his posts you would think the recoil spring would be an easy replacement. Whether more frequent replacement of the recoil spring would have any significant impact on the broken slides/frames is a matter of con gesture. It would seem logical but maybe not. It would depend on what exactly is causing the problem beyond the simple recoil of the gun.

Your comment on your friend got me thinking. I know I have gone through over 8K this year on my handguns based upon primer usage but I suspect only two of my guns have more than maybe 2K - 3K on them this year. My favourite guns are not always the ones I shoot the most.

Take Care

Bob
 
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