IPSC Ontario classification system

[black]

I really find it funny that some people are forcing this change though on the bases on us needing a system which will produce ACCURATE class/match results, and then they are pushing an idea which doesn't measure/take into consideration how people do in matches at all!!

OK 2 point penalty for using Logic in this discussion.

I think it's you who needs to learn about not just classification, but sport in general. Who does it hurt?? It rewards lazy, unskilled people, and gives them no incentive to improve themselves. They are the ones most hurt, as their inflated heads become an obstacle to improvement. It denies any recognition to shooters who work and train hard, travel to all the matches and who rise above. It denies goals, the true motivation for all sportspeople.

All I've got to say is who cares if someone is a "fake" GM or what. If it bothers you that much I'd hate to see your reaction if something really important goes unaddressed ....like world peace or whaling or how do they get the caramel into that chocolate!

 

[relliott]

On another note, did you think you have an ego..? I wasn't personally attacking you,.....but I guess you took it that way.

Easy boys; we're all on the same side here.

Look, the problem with any ranking system...in any sport, not just IPSC...is the number of variables you are trying to calculate for. Too many variables means inconsistent data, and there are so many variables in the sport of IPSC that I don't really see any way to come up with a system that will not be seen to be screwing someone over at some level. Certainly that is never the intent, but the part of reality that really does suck is that in a country the size of Canada there just isn't a good way to keep the data pool absolutely clean. How do we accurately compare the skills of a competitor in say, Halifax to the skills of another in BC., when neither of them may ever meet in competition?

Having said that, we need some form of base-line to work from, so we try as best we can to account for some of these variables. The brains that are working on this problem on our behalf are I believe, doing their level best to come up with some way of establishing a system of calculating rank on an on-going basis that is at least workable. It is very true that much like the various systems of government; no system will be perfect for everyone. But we must try to work with what is provided as best we can, and tweak as necessary if possible.

The bottom line for me; the only performance that REALLY matters is the performance one gives under match conditions. Personally, I don't even care what the ranking label is. It's just a label, and have you ever noticed that over time, the same guys tend to keep winning matches by pretty much the same spreads? Sure, there will be anomalies with off days, colds, allergies, equipment issues or whatever else can derail a performance on a given day, but I've never had any real trouble ascertaining who my primary competition will be at any given match. I just look at a sufficient cross-section of match results to give me that information

 

[colt45gunner]

the problem i have w/ option 3 is, you can still have soft level 2, where gm screws up, or the gm is not really a gm & the problem continues.
unless, you reclass everyone as option 2 suggests & make it so 2 gm's have to attend & get rid of the ics.

option 2, is o.k., if we re-class everyone as it proposes & there has to be 2 new classed GM's at a match (level 2 or 3) for it to be a classifier. I think the current ontario system is good, if we can reduce soft classifiers
like the one that gave me my "M" class in standard, which even though i show some spark & speed w/ decent shooting on occaision , I definatley did not earn it or am I qualified for it !!!

my 3 cents

 

[relliott]

unless, you reclass everyone as option 2 suggests & make it so 2 gm's have to attend & get rid of the ics.

But for the system to be inter/national, ICS stages would have to be included....no?

 

[colt45gunner]

true, ICS stages would have to play a roll then, i guess a small % would be fare

 

[Quigley]

ICS doesn't just use an ICS stage, Your % from a level 3 or higher is used aswell.

So I hear...

How many Level 3's have you shot in the last 3 years...and how many of those Level 3's are in your ICS calculations??

Let me guess...Barrie Nats in 2004 and WS in Ecuador...

 

[Quigley]

the problem i have w/ option 3 is, you can still have soft level 2, where gm screws up, or the gm is not really a gm & the problem continues.

my 3 cents

There's one constant that always happens with a soft classifier...the match winner throws away match points. We can put a check in place to identify (by means of an objective calculation) soft classifiers and eliminate them from the equation...

Anyway...we sould be able to send out the resulst of the vote tomorrow...and put forward an implimentation schedule to make this as painless as possable for the members...

Thanks

 

[USP]

I think it's you who needs to learn about not just classification, but sport in general.
Who does it hurt?? It rewards lazy, unskilled people, and gives them no incentive to improve themselves. They are the ones most hurt, as their inflated heads become an obstacle to improvement. It denies any recognition to shooters who work and train hard, travel to all the matches and who rise above. It denies goals, the true motivation for all sportspeople.
In other words, it hurts everyone.

To put it in perspective, there is only one real live GM in all of Ontario, and only 2 in all of Canada, and the second one, D.I. from BC does not shoot anymore.

intersting...you ever think that perhaps its you who needs to learn about sport in general? If somebody has an inflated rating level and is #### in the real world thats their problem.. IPSC to me is as much about competing against yourself as well as competing against others..

I dont get this lazy or unskilled comment...

 

[omen]

There are ICS stages which test setup, takeoff ,shooting on the move, mag changes, and stategic thinking. .

Sure... we might see ONE such stage per year... the other N-1 are draw and shoot.... draw, load and shoot..... while kneeing draw and shoot... draw , shoot, reload, shoot..... while kneeling draw, shoot, reload, shoot, etc, etc... So again this boils down to us needing to modify what matches we shoot to try and satisfy the chosen classificztion system... Don't think so... If the system doesn't match the matches, it's worthless. I've never shot in the US, but I constantly hear how their matches are box-based - maybe that's why their stage-based class system works so well... We don't do that...

But for the system to be inter/national, ICS stages would have to be included....no?

No, because this is NOT an inter/national system, it's for Ontario shooters.

 

[omen]

To put it in perspective, there is only one real live GM in all of Ontario, and only 2 in all of Canada,

GM is someone who shoots 95+% among his/her peers. Period. For our purposes, peers are "other IPSC Ontario shooters." Your statement doesn't make sense...

if you don't like having a provincial or national classification system, don't use it. Lots of other people see the point and the benefit in having one, so we're trying to figure out which one to use. Constantly complaining about it not being needed or about it not matching someone's international/world ranking/skill is really pointless, and becoming boring... Go nutz shooting with Eric and Robbie all over the world, we're going to have fun supporting our local clubs in our local matches, and we'll keep calling ourselves B shooters, A shooters, and (yes, dear Gods!) even GMs, despite that we're not "REAL" shooters of that "class." Everyone knows what everyone else means, there is no misunderstanding...

 

[JohnMc]

All I've got to say is who cares if someone is a "fake" GM or what. If it bothers you that much I'd hate to see your reaction if something really important goes unaddressed ....like world peace or whaling or how do they get the caramel into that chocolate!

The problem is not with a fake GM doing them self any harm. But they will drive other peoples classes up. If I have the misfortune of being at three matches with a soft (fake) GM I could end up a middle of the road C shooter in B class. Keeping me out of any class awards.

 

[relliott]

No, because this is NOT an inter/national system, it's for Ontario shooters.

Yes that's true. But the Ontario ranking system will have to dovetail into our National ranking system somehow, so ICS stages will probably have to form some percentage of the calculations. Even Ontario is too big to ensure that enough people shoot enough of the same matches to give an accurate reading.

Having said that; I have no idea why ICS stages are so often just stand and shoot drills. They don't have to be, and I know there are certainly stage designs that can be accurately measured and repeated that can test other skills besides draws and reloads. We should be using them imbedded in actual matches. That's the only way ICS can have any real validity.

BTW: U/S. matches used to be a lot of box to box stuff, but these days it is becoming increasingly free-style. If their ranking system works any better than ours....and I'm not convinced it does....it is probably because they have and couple of things going for them that we don't.
1. Paid professional shooters who travel the "area match circuit" and shoot internationally, "seeding" all of the various ponds.
2. A much larger data pool.

Still, I frequently see shooters in B and A class shooting M and GM scores in various matches in the U.S. Either their skills have advanced so rapidly that they have outpaced the information processing system, or they are sandbagging.

 

[40cal]

I think it's you who needs to learn about not just classification, but sport in general.
Who does it hurt?? It rewards lazy, unskilled people, and gives them no incentive to improve themselves. They are the ones most hurt, as their inflated heads become an obstacle to improvement. It denies any recognition to shooters who work and train hard, travel to all the matches and who rise above. It denies goals, the true motivation for all sportspeople.
In other words, it hurts everyone.

To put it in perspective, there is only one real live GM in all of Ontario, and only 2 in all of Canada, and the second one, D.I. from BC does not shoot anymore.

My, oh my. We have the "Integrity Police" to tell us how we have to train and how large our heads can be now. Maybe you should tell us all how and when to shoot as well.

You want perspective, let's put this in perspective.

Standard Division: One GM-Mike Burrell , One M- Wade Sanderson. All the rest are "A" class or below. Look at the Provincials or Nationals for proof. Jeez, how do we do classifications then? That's reality folks. And yes, I have an "M" in Standard, and no I don't deserve it.

Open Division: NO GM's I have seen. Maybe a couple "M"'s...maybe.Take a trip to the States and tell me we have anything close to a GM in Open. Go ahead, you know what I mean. You take a guy like J.J., or Jarrett and they absolutely rock compared to us snails.

Production: NO GM's, not even close. Seeing as Omen and myself have won most of the matches in Ontario, then I think that I can honestly say that. I know what a true GM in Production shoots like. Not like us.

Well, there is your perspective. How do you like reality come back at you?

Now, maybe you see the point (or not). This is an ONTARIO system such as Omen and myself have indicated. This whole mess is being shoved up our butts to try and please a couple whining Masters and Grand Masters. I hardly believe that a "A", "B", "C", or "D" class shooter wanted to start this crap.

This is all by someone who can't stand someone else having a head as swelled as theirs. PERIOD.

If you want to know your International ranking, then go to the ICS classifications. You won't find many GM's from Ontario there either. How is your hard work, training, and travelling working for you?

Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[USP]

^the above post sums it up alot.. Isnt it more about some who are GMs or Ms..who feel that they alone deserve the title whereas others who have gotten it arent equal to them?

A better system would be forcing those who have the titles to maintain them and shoot periodically or loose them and drop down a level after a few low scores.. Perhaps not just your 3 best scores..but your 3 worst scores as well?

I shoot C class, if I get alittle over 50% and theres good people shooting the match..I figure I did ok..

perhaps we need to get it back to more of a sport where people have fun, rather than controlled by those who obsess about who has the same classification that they do..

 

[omen]

you know, this reminds me, a while ago (2-3 years) this one Standard shooter would go around telling anyone who would listen that no one in Production should be able to call themselves a Master (no GMs back then) until they made M in a 'real' division (i.e. Std or Open).

So now we have 'no one in Canada (or Ontario) should be able to call themselves a (G)M until they make (G)M on the world stage'.

Let's try this again, so maybe it will sink in... The purpose of this system is to measure the relative match performance of people within Ontario.. Period... How that compares to other provinces is irrelevant... How that compares to shooters in other countries is irrelevant..... How that compares to the results of the World shoot is irelevant.... This is an ONTARIO (!!!!!!!!!!!!) Classification system...

So, please, everyone, take a breath, and give us all a break with the whole "real GM", or "go down to the States", or whatever - that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. It's all relative to other people in Ontario... That's all.. The top 5% are supposed to be GMs, then next 10% Ms, etc, etc... That's all we're trying to build... You want to feel good about yourself on the world stage, go shoot in the US or in the world shoot or whatever - go nutz, have fun, do well, all the best. But leave that out of THIS conversation, because it's apples and oranges.

This is a f**king hobby, and some of you are doing your best to take all the fun out of it with the constant whining and #####ing.

 

[Quigley]

God you guys are funny...

This is not being pushed forward by any GM's or M's...and the majority of people that complained where not top shooters...they were people that got bumped up a class before they were ready. This is being pushed forward by the board...becuase the current system no longer reflects actual results (or abilities) If we're going to have a Classifiction system...it may as well work (or what's the point)

Despite what some may think...the Board of Directors are not puppets...

Yes, this is an Ontario system, to identify the best shooters in ...Ontario (and how you stack up againts them)

We also need it to determine "class awards" for those clubs you decide to have awards ... and who our top shooters are for the teams we send to the Nats.

You're humble servant...er...I mean...puppet...

 

[black]

God you guys are funny...

...they were people that got bumped up a class before they were ready.

Ok I know for a fact that people who felt they were moved up too soon can request to be dropped back down. I know of 2 shooters who requested it and were. That solution already exsits maybe it should be brodcast more.

And to solve the problem of one great match bumping you up, increase the minimum number of matches from 3 to 6. That way one or two great matches won't move you up (unless your really close to the bubble)

That's why the US system tends to work better they take a larger sample of your performace smoothing out the blips.

 

[AlexS]

Standard Division: One GM-Mike Burrell , One M- Wade Sanderson. All the rest are "A" class or below. Look at the Provincials or Nationals for proof. Jeez, how do we do classifications then? That's reality folks. And yes, I have an "M" in Standard, and no I don't deserve it.

Open Division: NO GM's I have seen. Maybe a couple "M"'s...maybe.Take a trip to the States and tell me we have anything close to a GM in Open. Go ahead, you know what I mean. You take a guy like J.J., or Jarrett and they absolutely rock compared to us snails.

Production: NO GM's, not even close. Seeing as Omen and myself have won most of the matches in Ontario, then I think that I can honestly say that. I know what a true GM in Production shoots like. Not like us.

Good Stuff!
Maybe you need to work on your english as well. You must presume others only like to talk about themselves cause maybe you do. Certainly I didn't refer to myself in my post, but nevertheless you just summed up perfectly what I said previous, except with more detail. I'm glad we're on the same page with this one. So, now that we agree with who's on top in Ontario, (you got it exactly right) you obviously want a classification system to attempt to reflect this reality, or at least come close. Not what we've got now! It's getting worse and out of control.
That's great you agree!

 

[Quigley]

We recieved 1 request in the last 12 months for someone to be dropped down. That can only be requested if you can not "maintain" the classifiction. So if you keep hitting Soft Classifiers...and your % remains high...we still have a problem.

If we allowed poeple to drop back while they were still in the appropriate % barcket...it would be sandbagger heaven (or hell)

We looked at going from 3 to 6...it would help...but not completely fix the problem.

 

[relliott]

If we allowed poeple to drop back while they were still in the appropriate % barcket...it would be sandbagger heaven (or hell)

So you're telling me then, that I can't get bumped down to "C" class?
Well that's a bummer.