I thought it was just -10 for the miss unless you hit the no-shoot then it's -10 for the hit to a max of -20 in USPSA if you keep hitting the no-shoot you keep getting -10 for each hit....pmt said:Missing an 'A' zone at 30M is miss, you're down 10.
Missing a popper or a plate at 30M in front of a no-shoot is a miss (-10) and a penalty (another -10) for each miss.
I've shot outside of Ontario. This is the only place I've been penalized twice for missing a target.
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Well, obviously you haven't shot elsewhere enough. Canadian Nationals 2005 in NB had mini-poppers (undersized mini) in front of no shoots on a stage that had to be shot WEAK hand. You should be kissing IPSIK's feet for such a joyfully easy and simple stage. If you have such a complex about missing the targets and keep re-enforcing that, you WILL miss, quite simply.pmt said:I've shot outside of Ontario. This is the only place I've been penalized twice for missing a target.
Why don't you stop crying, dry your eyes and go to the range and do some training. It's hard to hit what you're aiming at with all those tears in your eyes! Be positive, dammit!
AlexS said:
Why don't you try using another match for an example. The Canadian "screw you shooters at all cost" Nationals has never been, what I would call a stellar match.
Just because some else did something stupid it doesn't make it right, or an excuse for a lousy course of fire.
A plate at 30 or 40 yards is a tough shot and meets the accuracy part of IPSC.
Putting a no shoot behind that plate is wrong and just mean to the vast majority of our competitors. (you know the B's to D's who are the core of our sport)
Pointing out a obvious poor stage may be crying to you but to me it looks like a accurate opinion.
.....and if you want PMT to kiss IPSIK's feet, what part are you kissing?
Having low ports or lots of running is mean to the out of shape shooters out there, but we still do it. If none of the stages were tough to shoot then what would be the point? I have no issues with a hard stage like this, its all in the shooters hands. It's not a mind #### memory stage where the first bunch of shooters get screwed over because they don't get the extra time to figure it out, nor does luck have anything to do with it. The stage meets all the rules straight up, and requires us to make an accurate shot, so what if screwing up cost more points then usualy. If a swinger causes a shooter to wait for a second pass because they weren't fast enough to get 2 hits on the first exposure, they are in essence getting a time penalty for not shooting fast enough, but everyone is ok with that. It's the same concept different senerio. This is the Provincial Championships, it should be a tougher match other wise its just another Level 3. The toughest USPSA matches to get slots for are also the matches with the most challengeing stages, Nats & Area 2, why is that? Could it be that there are shooters out there who enjoy pushing them selves to the edge of their abilities rather then just wanting to shoot the same mindless junk over and over again so they can feel good about themselves?
"Accuracy, power and speed are the equivalent elements of practical shooting and practical competition must be conducted in such a way as to evaluate these elements equally" Some of you seem to be forgetting the whole accuracy part of the game.
"Accuracy, power and speed are the equivalent elements of practical shooting and practical competition must be conducted in such a way as to evaluate these elements equally" Some of you seem to be forgetting the whole accuracy part of the game.
I guess the US production nationals, or the A8, A2, and other matches that use this common target setup are not stellar matches to you either. Get your head out of the sand and quit the crying club. You of all people should know better. You complained about the last Provincials at Guelph, you know you are not going to get the usual Ontario garbage. If you think you will be getting screwed by difficult shots, don't shoot the match. I think the match has limited space anyway, so let someone who's up to the challenge shoot it. Maybe you can apply to run the provincials indoors next year and set up the stages where everyone can shoot 2 yard targets and everyone goes home a winner.black said:
Looks like you need to sharpen up your math and/or reading skills. It's a popper, not a plate, and at 30 not 40m. BTW, IPSC classifier CLC01 has a popper in front of a penalty target too. Take your crying to Alexakos and the world body too. They will surely listen to you and take your grievances about the need for easier shots in IPSC very seriously.black said:A plate at 30 or 40 yards is a tough shot and meets the accuracy part of IPSC.
Putting a no shoot behind that plate is wrong and just mean to the vast majority of our competitors. (you know the B's to D's who are the core of our sport)
Back in the day...when dinosaurs still walked the Earth...you could expect to encounter 50 yard Standards at any major match you went to. That's 50 yards, 3 targets, six seconds from the holster, Virginia count. By comparison, a popper nicely highlighted in front of some white cardboard at 30 meters doesn't seem too bad. The first time I shot the standards I zero'd the stage. The second time too for that matter. Rather than get po'd about it I instead made it my mission to learn how to shoot an accurate shot on demand. It was a pivotal lesson for me, and I discovered that even once acquired, accuracy is a perishable skill that you have to continually hone. But watching guys like Barnhart, Leatham and Keonig shoot it while taking the time to go PRONE and still getting all the shots off with mostly A's wasn't demoralizing, it was....poetry.
Also, let's get some perspective on this. We're really only talking about two difficult-ish rounds for the entire match here. The rest of it doesn't look too crazy to me, and if you practice this shot a few times out doors in decent light you will be able to do it easily and with one eye tied behind your back. Practice it a 50 meters and at 30 meters the poppers will seem so huge they'll look like the CN tower! That's what I'm gong to do. Anyone care to practice it with me?
Also, let's get some perspective on this. We're really only talking about two difficult-ish rounds for the entire match here. The rest of it doesn't look too crazy to me, and if you practice this shot a few times out doors in decent light you will be able to do it easily and with one eye tied behind your back. Practice it a 50 meters and at 30 meters the poppers will seem so huge they'll look like the CN tower! That's what I'm gong to do. Anyone care to practice it with me?
You're right, I haven't shot elsewhere enough but I'm working on it.AlexS said:
You guys are getting way too bent about this. My original comment, which is just my own opinion is that the course of fire is more suited to Open guns than to Production. Again...my opinion. Omen disagreed, which is fine, then everyone else went off their meds. At least MOBILE 1 gave me some good advice.
I don't need to kiss anybodys feet because the Nationals sucked. While we're on that topic: The 2005 Nat's is a poor example to use in the same paragraph as "stop crying" and "It's hard to hit what you're aiming at with all those tears in your eyes!" As I recall the whole OPEN team had tears in their eyes when they didn't like the size of the plates.MOBILE 1 said:
AlexS said:
It no wonder with that attitude there is always such a long line up of people who want to shoot with you. I guess it has to do with the fact that some people take up shooting to have some time away from their rotten kids
You don't get it do you, I'm not crying for myself, I complaining for the 80 % of the shooters who shoot, that get screwed by stages like this.
Plates, popper big deal I shot both.(with and without no shoots)AlexS said:
The last time it was 3 plates at 35 yards with no shoots. I told the course designer (an other Open shooter) that this was an A** H*** stage because only a A** H*** would design a stage like this, I explained how almost everyone was going to Zero this stage and everyone on the next 3 squads zeroed it, except me (who won it) and another guy who also shot clean. The end result was almost nobody who shot that match, shoots at that club anymore.
As for the IPSC classifiers with no shoots, USPSA also has some dumb classifiers too and you what, you don't have to pick them.AlexS said:
They have more than 2 in the classifier book, I know I've read them both. I a little disappointed that brain trust at Guelph, couldn't come up with 10 stages and has to fall back to using classifiers for our Provincials. The Targeting Education IPSC match has 18 stages and none of them are classifiers and they follow the recommended stage ratio 3,2,1. AlexS said:
Your more than welcome to set up an indoor match, let see how great a job you can do getting a level 2 with 32' (28' you can use) of range width, poor lighting and no heat.
oh and you can't set the match up until 10 PM the night before and have to be out and gone by 5:30 on Sunday
.......I got the match booked for October if you want it give it a try, talk to Barney.pmt said:
Ok, fair point. But wouldn't you say that an Open gun has an advantage on pretty much every stage? They have less flip, less recoil, one sighting plane and low light conditions don't really matter. I would say it would be very tough if not out right impossible to come up with a stage design format that would challenge all divisions equally. If you set up a match that challenges only Open shooters then no one else with iron sights has any fun. If you set it up just for the Standard/Production/Revolver guys the Open shooters might as well stay home because it will just be too easy. So no matter how you set it up, someone is going to feel slighted. When I look at these diagrams I see an attempt to find some balance, but maybe that's just me. I am of the mind that as long as it is a test of skill rather than random chance it is a fair stage....no matter how difficult the shots. So I say let's all rise to the challenge and do our best.
As some of you know, I am not shooting Open anymore and my eyes now officially suck so I will have to practice the hell out of this shot myself. And I was serious; anyone who wants to practice it with me is more than welcome. I would enjoy the company.
pmt said:
Hmmm, I thought I was merely offering some useful advice as well. Sorry you didn't take it that way, but I'll stop now. In any case I hope you shoot the match and enjoy it no matter how it looks on paper.
R
Hey Steve, you know it's all about lively "discussions" with me!!black said:Your more than welcome to set up an indoor match, let see how great a job you can do getting a level 2 with 32' (28' you can use) of range width, poor lighting and no heat.
oh and you can't set the match up until 10 PM the night before and have to be out and gone by 5:30 on Sunday
I just don't like the fact that you pre-judge 80% of the other shooters and claim to speak for them. You don't. We've got enough replies on this original pre-hijacked post that are positive, and lots from new if not brand new shooters. They understand the need for challenges. Nognog summed it up perfectly with his first reply, and this is the correct sportsmanlike attitude. I wish I could have an outlook that good.
As for your matches, you do a fantastic job given the constraints you have. Nobody would dispute this, not even me. However, the point I was making, I'll try to speak slowly here, is that when you move a match outside and you have available range space, it WILL be used. You are not going to get indoor type stages on a fantastic outdoor range. What do you expect?? This is also the provincial championship, and should be a test of skill. Remember what DVC stands for?????????
Stages with penalty targets behind poppers can be very tough. That is a fact. The toughness is the same for everybody, so it is fair. In a freestyle environment, it is not a very difficult shot at all. In a strong or weakhand shot it is very difficult. It is the Provincials, and it should be tough. Not dumb, just tough.
On the other hand; the simple process of placing a penalty target behind a plate or popper has more implications than just that. I, personally would not place that type of scenario in a large match for several reasons. None of which have to do with skill or difficulty level.
The complications stemming from this array leads to scoring problems and credibility. I had spoken to John Amidon once about this exact scenario. His reply was:
"I for one do not like the penalty or scoring target placed behind steel due to the shrapnel tears on the targets if the steel is hit on the edge."
For those of you who don't know who John Amidon is, then "google" him . Those of you who know who John Amidon is; we need no more history. I regard him more highly than anyone else in these type of matters. We had further discussions pertaining to similar setups, but you get the hint. The only other thing that could be worse is painting the steel white in front of a white penalty target.
I don't think we have to "kiss" anyone's feet for pulling out a so-so classifier. That is a ridiculous statement.
There appears to be some genuinely interesting stages that we may find very tough. The one thing that I have found is not to take the stage diagrams too seriously. Most of the time the actual shooting scenario changes dramatically in the end. The Guelph team has picked up the ball and gone with it. I wish them the best.
Any of you that know me, know that I will speak my mind after the match. Be it good or bad I will say what I feel. I think we still have that right in Canada, don't we?
This is just my opinion, yet this is the stage that they have chosen. I guess this is the stage we should practice!
It is the Provincials, and it should be tough. Not dumb, just tough. On the other hand; the simple process of placing a penalty target behind a plate or popper has more implications than just that. I, personally would not place that type of scenario in a large match for several reasons. None of which have to do with skill or difficulty level.
The complications stemming from this array leads to scoring problems and credibility. I had spoken to John Amidon once about this exact scenario. His reply was:
"I for one do not like the penalty or scoring target placed behind steel due to the shrapnel tears on the targets if the steel is hit on the edge."
For those of you who don't know who John Amidon is, then "google" him . Those of you who know who John Amidon is; we need no more history. I regard him more highly than anyone else in these type of matters. We had further discussions pertaining to similar setups, but you get the hint. The only other thing that could be worse is painting the steel white in front of a white penalty target.
I don't think we have to "kiss" anyone's feet for pulling out a so-so classifier. That is a ridiculous statement.
There appears to be some genuinely interesting stages that we may find very tough. The one thing that I have found is not to take the stage diagrams too seriously. Most of the time the actual shooting scenario changes dramatically in the end. The Guelph team has picked up the ball and gone with it. I wish them the best.
Any of you that know me, know that I will speak my mind after the match. Be it good or bad I will say what I feel. I think we still have that right in Canada, don't we?
This is just my opinion, yet this is the stage that they have chosen. I guess this is the stage we should practice!
Discussions about the provincials and then the stages being posted, quickly followed by some comments about the stages. Apparently someone thought one stage in particular was an "open" division stage, as if such a thing existed. Thread quickly degenerates into mud slinging and personal attacks, followed by some reasonable and logical asessments of the situation,maxpig said:
(see relloitt and 40cal) Now currently back on thread, it seems.....
Well I have kept my mouth shut for as long as I could ( Ask anybody that knows me that is not a easy thing for me to do )
All this whining about a couple of stages just reinforces my opine why IPSC Ontario and IPSC Canada is in the state it is in. Let me ala berate before every body gets there panties in a bunch.
1) I notice that people will whine about how hard the stages are in any match that challenges the shooter. This is the biggest problem in IPSC Ontario. It is alot essayer to come on the INTERNET and whine how hard a stage is or will be then go out and practice and embrace the challenge to make yourself better. This is the biggest reason the rest of the world produces better shooters then we do in Canada. That is a sad fact.
2) People go out and practice and make them selfs better. Now these same people step up to the plate to set up matches so others can shoot. Now because they decide to challenge all the shooters they are criticize for it. Sorry not all matches can be at 2 yards with no no shots targets. There has to be winners and there has to be losers. Not every body is going to get a award for showing up. You want a award earn it.
3) I know some one is going to call me an elitist prick for what I have stated ( I dont' care ). I am tiered of listing to the whining. There is NO REASON we can not produce a better shooter in IPSC Ontario if not only to change the way you look at shooting. Embrace challenges starve to be a better shooter. If we can do this the majority of shooters in Ontario will go from C and D to B , A and there is no reason why not M and GM.
4) If we can do this. There is no reason we can produce a fare better shooter then we are doing know. Would in not feel better to have more shooters do better at level 3's then the same people winning all the time.
Rob I will take you up on you offer to train together. PM me and we will get it all set up.
Now before anybody ( and I know they will ) comes after me for what I have said. Try this take the 5 minutes that it will to type your argument and do some dry firing. It mite be time fare better spent.
Just my 2 cents.
All this whining about a couple of stages just reinforces my opine why IPSC Ontario and IPSC Canada is in the state it is in. Let me ala berate before every body gets there panties in a bunch.
1) I notice that people will whine about how hard the stages are in any match that challenges the shooter. This is the biggest problem in IPSC Ontario. It is alot essayer to come on the INTERNET and whine how hard a stage is or will be then go out and practice and embrace the challenge to make yourself better. This is the biggest reason the rest of the world produces better shooters then we do in Canada. That is a sad fact.
2) People go out and practice and make them selfs better. Now these same people step up to the plate to set up matches so others can shoot. Now because they decide to challenge all the shooters they are criticize for it. Sorry not all matches can be at 2 yards with no no shots targets. There has to be winners and there has to be losers. Not every body is going to get a award for showing up. You want a award earn it.
3) I know some one is going to call me an elitist prick for what I have stated ( I dont' care ). I am tiered of listing to the whining. There is NO REASON we can not produce a better shooter in IPSC Ontario if not only to change the way you look at shooting. Embrace challenges starve to be a better shooter. If we can do this the majority of shooters in Ontario will go from C and D to B , A and there is no reason why not M and GM.
4) If we can do this. There is no reason we can produce a fare better shooter then we are doing know. Would in not feel better to have more shooters do better at level 3's then the same people winning all the time.
Rob I will take you up on you offer to train together. PM me and we will get it all set up.
Now before anybody ( and I know they will ) comes after me for what I have said. Try this take the 5 minutes that it will to type your argument and do some dry firing. It mite be time fare better spent.
Just my 2 cents.
40cal said:
Like or dislike should not be be an issue, on this matter, that’s all personal preference. But there are rules SPECIFICLLY designed to handle this situation, and it describes it very clearly.
The fact is that people don't like the psychological aspect of knowing what can go wrong if they miss. If they don't want to miss, then they shoot slower. The slower they shoot it the better a representation it is of their skill level. If they "wing it" and miss, then it's also a good representation of their skill level. It's not the only target on the course of fire.
I for one would have been one of those “wing it” shooters, (in a normal steel situation) but now this has forced me to pay more attention, and focus on what I should be doing, which is getting the hits every time, regardless of what is behind it. I’ll be practicing this stage before the match, and it will make me a better shooter. More then if I just shot the stage itself, had it not been a challenging one. The fact that the stage has been published, shows that the designers wanted a tough course, but they wanted you to know a head of time, and prepare if you need to (physically, or psychologically) . An A**-hole would have just sprung it on you with no warning.
