IRG Colt Le6933 with KAC accessories or colt Canada 11.6mrr
- Thread starter Chinatown
- Start date
CreamySmooth
CGN frequent flyer
So glad you agree with me once again.
Cheers D
I see what you did there....
Seriously if you cannot decide on your first AR to buy then going with a DD may be the safest bet as there resale is excellent well that and they are an excellent rifle. If a new DD's a little more then you want to spend then buying a used one on the EE may save a few bucks, if you're quick enough to actually get one. Otherwise the many premium brands being mentioned are all good choices, even if they are at the higher cost end of the AR market, but as like all things you get what you pay for.
Just kidding with you once again Creamysmooth, seriously you're good for making quality points regarding AR platforms...
Cheers D
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CreamySmooth
CGN frequent flyer
Just kidding with you once again Creamysmooth, seriously you're good for making quality points regarding AR platforms...
Cheers D
I personally think I'm good for quality points on AR's, hunting, f-35's and the man purse, or murse, which no man should carry. Like white sunglasses....
Stick with Made in Canada for warranty purposes. As soon as that rifle leaves the US there is no warranty and contrary to popular believe it's just about impossible to sent it back for repair. You are also supporting your fellow Canadians.
No kidding! I was doing some fun run/gun style shooting on the range a year ago and the federal guy was pretty slow. I suggested they try using the gear I use. So next shooting the Federal guy came out wearing running shoes, a T-shirt and shorts instead of the 40 pounds of work gear he was wearing the previous time. We both agreed that it was way faster, easier to get into position and helped get better accuracy at speed. I fully expect his agency to be dumping the soft body armor, hard body armor, duty boots, cargo pants, belt, radio, duty pistol etc as patrol gear. Much quicker and more accurate.
Don't even get me started on their patrol cars. Supped up Civic or go home. Those patrol cars are so slow and don't even handle well. Geez, they need to get a clue.
Not so true story...
Don't get me wrong CreamySmooth, your Avatar is cool and your posts are entertaining.
The above point was simply to show you the difference in use. What works on the range for your type of shooting might not be suitable for a patrol carbine due to factors that you would never consider or encounter on the range. Something to think about. The car analogy was also designed for this. The Crown Vic is a piece of crap, yet it was a good patrol car. Not fast, handled poorly but was big enough and tough enough for the job and wouldn't break down after idling 24/7 unlike many much quicker vehicles. Oh and as a monolithic upper AR goes, I like my C8IUR rifles, but I still prefer my LMT mrp rifles a bit more.
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So reading this I'm apt to bring forward my story from the old Colt forum when their guy was posting on the site. It's why I'm so pissy.... I wrote up a real nice comparison after shooting my own 6920 and several of the new Federal Issue IUR's. After shooting I came to the conclusion that A) they sucked, that they are an extended combat rifle that was heavy as balls and not at all fit as a patrol carbine which should be light and quick. B) that my 6920 beat it hard in every way because it was lighter and used a scope instead of the issued aim points in the Federal course of fire. C) that the forge marks on the rifle lowers were the same keyhole marks and that meant they came from the same US Cerro forge as my 6920, the integrated upper had a square forge mark indicating it came again from a US forge, Brass Aluminum in MI... So while we get told they were made in Canada it's simply not true. They are only finished there. D) finally I pointed out at 4000 a rifle that my belief was someone flipped to the most expensive rifle in the Colt Canada catalogs and picked it instead of purchasing say a SA15.7 or shorter which would have been a FAR better choice. Or a US colt at a quarter the price, and maybe discounted because of bulk purchases.
I was very nice on my posts and pointed this stuff out. The Colt guy deleted any comment I made that did not show Colt in a good light. Boom... I'll never buy CC.
BUT Colt Canada rifles are high quality, I agree. But there's still WAY MORE battle tested Colt USA or FN made AR/M16's in the sandbox. So again, any use we will ever hit these rifles with is really moot. So buy a good one, but don't waste your money.
And XDMER, I am sorry. I didn't realize I was a fixture in these CC posts... I will revisit standing down.
A Colt 6920 weighs six ounces less than a CC IUR16. The lightest free-float handguard on the market weighs eight ounces. So by the time you have a 6920 that can take lights, grips, etc you have a 6920 that weighs two ounces more.
The MRR actually weighs less than a 6920 with similar barrel lengths.
But honestly it's all a moot point because if you thought six ounces was somehow weighing you down or making you shoot more poorly in a range setting, you are either in desperate need of a personal trainer, or you had already made up your mind that Colt Canada sucks.
Which they don't, by the way... but why let facts get in the way of a good story, right?
The weight of a rifle comes mostly from the barrel.
you can do a bit of calculation, 0.15" of diameter change behind the gas block is about 6 to 8 oz.
To save weight in a real way is to have a skinny barrel. Those IURs are heavy not because of the monolithic upper receivers, it is that fact that those barrels are 0.83-0.85" in dia behind the gas block. All the uppers purchased by special forces want 0.83 to 0.85" barrel because they want to fire these things in sustained fire - HK416, C8 SFW, M4A1.....they all have 0.83-0.85" dia. The magic number!
To make a monolithic upper lighter than a M4, there is no way but to use a much lighter barrel than a M4. It can be done unless it is going with a barrel like M16A1 ( 0.64" dia) or lighter. Simple math. It saves an ounce or two here by having slightly smaller barrel nut and gas block, but the rail makes up the weight.
After eye balling the MRR in real life and in pictures, the weight of 6.86lb (vs 6.35lb of a M4) most likely comes from the fact they are using a much lighter barrel than the old IUR. My guess they are doing what noveske has done with the N4 in barrel profiling. They beef up the barrel behind the gas block to 0.7" from 0.64" ish and cut the barrel in front of the gas block to about 0.68".
This barrel configuration is great for 14.5 and 16 patrol rifles, but for a short barrel rifle with already less "metal" to work as a heat sink, 0.83-5" dia like the M4A1/HK416/C8 SFW is the way to go. And we see that all the people who shoot short barrels a lot don't buy light weight 10.5 or 11.5".
you can do a bit of calculation, 0.15" of diameter change behind the gas block is about 6 to 8 oz.
To save weight in a real way is to have a skinny barrel. Those IURs are heavy not because of the monolithic upper receivers, it is that fact that those barrels are 0.83-0.85" in dia behind the gas block. All the uppers purchased by special forces want 0.83 to 0.85" barrel because they want to fire these things in sustained fire - HK416, C8 SFW, M4A1.....they all have 0.83-0.85" dia. The magic number!
To make a monolithic upper lighter than a M4, there is no way but to use a much lighter barrel than a M4. It can be done unless it is going with a barrel like M16A1 ( 0.64" dia) or lighter. Simple math. It saves an ounce or two here by having slightly smaller barrel nut and gas block, but the rail makes up the weight.
After eye balling the MRR in real life and in pictures, the weight of 6.86lb (vs 6.35lb of a M4) most likely comes from the fact they are using a much lighter barrel than the old IUR. My guess they are doing what noveske has done with the N4 in barrel profiling. They beef up the barrel behind the gas block to 0.7" from 0.64" ish and cut the barrel in front of the gas block to about 0.68".
This barrel configuration is great for 14.5 and 16 patrol rifles, but for a short barrel rifle with already less "metal" to work as a heat sink, 0.83-5" dia like the M4A1/HK416/C8 SFW is the way to go. And we see that all the people who shoot short barrels a lot don't buy light weight 10.5 or 11.5".
CreamySmooth
CGN frequent flyer
No kidding! I was doing some fun run/gun style shooting on the range a year ago and the federal guy was pretty slow. I suggested they try using the gear I use. So next shooting the Federal guy came out wearing running shoes, a T-shirt and shorts instead of the 40 pounds of work gear he was wearing the previous time. We both agreed that it was way faster, easier to get into position and helped get better accuracy at speed. I fully expect his agency to be dumping the soft body armor, hard body armor, duty boots, cargo pants, belt, radio, duty pistol etc as patrol gear. Much quicker and more accurate.
Don't even get me started on their patrol cars. Supped up Civic or go home. Those patrol cars are so slow and don't even handle well. Geez, they need to get a clue.
Not so true story...
Don't get me wrong CreamySmooth, your Avatar is cool and your posts are entertaining.
Oh and as a monolithic upper AR goes, I like my C8IUR rifles, but I still prefer my LMT mrp rifles a bit more.
Except they weren't wearing any of that. They were wearing running shoes and t-shirts. Cause it was 4 buddies at the range.... And THEY all agreed my configuration would have been a more appropriate patrol carbine. I love how you have zero experience with it but have a massive opinion. It's like I know the Crown Vics sucked.... But Chev stopped making the better Caprice at the time which was much preferred. Which is why traffic scooped em all.
And there isn't a slight weight difference, it's significant..... It also matters that the weight is slung out at the end of the rifle, where it effects pointing.
Basically since you don't carry a patrol carbine, your opinion matters.
And what's wrong with my Avatar....
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Except they weren't wearing any of that. They were wearing running shoes and t-shirts. Cause it was 4 buddies at the range.... And THEY all agreed my configuration would have been a more appropriate patrol carbine. I love how you have zero experience with it but have a massive opinion. It's like I know the Crown Vics sucked.... But Chev stopped making the better Caprice at the time which was much preferred. Which is why traffic scooped em all.
And there isn't a slight weight difference, it's significant..... It also matters that the weight is slung out at the end of the rifle, where it effects pointing.
Basically since you don't carry a patrol carbine, your opinion matters.
And what's wrong with my Avatar....
First, I think you completely missed the point. Second if they agreed to that, then it's a good thing they weren't involved in the decision making process. They received an exceptional patrol carbine.
I have zero experience with it but have a massive opinion? Are you so sure about that?
Is this the same sort of fact finding mission you embarked on when determining that the RCMP C8IUR wasn't a good patrol carbine? I'm seeing flaws here. What makes you think I don't carry a patrol carbine?
Nothing is wrong with your Avatar. I thought it was great. I wasn't being sarcastic. Tom Cruise was awesome in Tropical thunder. It was so different, it was damn good.
You are totally right; massive brain fart on my end. So you're looking at a 6920 that's six ounces lighter once it has the same ability to mount accessories.
The main point still stands though; naked you're talking about an IUR that weighs 1/3 of a pound more than a 6920. Even if that 1/3 of a pound is the barrel's heavier weight before the gas block, it should not (and will not be) a notable difference to most shooters.
And that's not even bringing up the fact that CreamySmooth is trying to claim his scope equipped 6920 was somehow lighter and faster than an IUR with an Aimpoint... a sight selected specficially because it's light, fast and simple. But hey, given that conclusion sounds about as absurdly unlikely to me as an RCMP member trading his issued C8 over to a civvy to shoot and #### around with, maybe I'm just close minded.
CreamySmooth
CGN frequent flyer
First, I think you completely missed the point. Second if they agreed to that, then it's a good thing they weren't involved in the decision making process. They received an exceptional patrol carbine.
I have zero experience with it but have a massive opinion? Are you so sure about that?
What makes you think I don't carry a patrol carbine?
Nothing is wrong with your Avatar. I thought it was great. I wasn't being sarcastic. Tom Cruise was awesome in Tropical thunder. It was so different, it was damn good.
The shooting was done without any other gear on and compared for our use to see what was better in our opinion. The gun is large, clunky and hard to maneuver. People who don't want to comprehend this would be the same people that do not understand how much taking a 7.25 pound rifle down to 6 pounds drastically changes its ability to be carried. Try it with a Savage 116 LWH and a regular 111. It's not just in the weight but in the dimensions and "carry ability". Another good comparison would be when the pistol gripped folders were replaced with standard stocked 870's. They dropped weight, bulk and became far easier to handle in a household or confined space. I understand what you were trying to get across with your comparison, and in my case with the Caprice I'm explaining that they did the same thing again. Larger, clunkier, slower vehicle, less preferred but someone not driving them made the decision. Again same as the new Rem 700. Practically its less useful than the old Win 70's they replaced. So much so that offices that still have 70's wont give them up or send them in for maintenance because they lose them. But the Rem is black, looks cooler so it must be better. Until you hump that bastard through the bush or shoot them side by side and realize they aren't any more accurate. Nice black ring optic though. That's nice.
So if you can offer up better practical real use counterpoints let me know. In the end, it's my opinion, but once I've had guys right there beside me shooting both I find it's easy to gain agreement.
And I was just playing butt hurt with my avatar. I use it because I consider it Tom's best work in his entire career. Har!
And Fritter... Who said civilian. Never said either.
Again that wasn't the point! The point was if lighter and faster was the only consideration for patrol then they wouldn't be geared up with 30-40 pounds of equipment. There are other factors involved.
By the way they dumped the folding stock 870. Great concept on paper, but sucked in reality for police work. They haven't used those as issue for probably about 20 years now. Maybe for some specialized areas or those that haven't updated their armory but not in regular duty. The 870 is due to be revamped so it will be interesting to see what the final product is. I'm predicting a more AR like stock system with pistol grip. But not a folder. We will see.
Real world counterpoint. Give a police officer a pistol done up with a nice 3 pound single action or even double/single with ammo matched for their pistol. They will agree it's more accurate, faster to shoot etc. But that's not why they have a 12 pound DOA or double/single pistol. Their gear isn't the fastest but it's also not specifically designed for gaming or looking good at the range. It's designed to keep them alive when they need it. They are't going to win many open competitions. In fact their manual of arms is also slower and would cause them to loose in range use even with the same gear and expertise vs what most use. But again it's designed to work under a different set of circumstances. The patrol carbine was speced out with that same purpose in mind. As was the manual of arms that they use with it. They would find that using what most use for 3 gun etc with regards to reloads, stoppage clearing etc is faster the way the competitors due it. Yet the program that has come down from JTF for them is more effective in the non range environment when they need it most.
Last, the C8IUR has to work in urban, suburban and rural areas. Often all on the same day. It's a multipurpose tool. It specializes in nothing but does everything decently. It's tough as a tank and can take the beating that police officers seem to dish out to their gear. Most importantly, when needed it will work and work well.
Honestly I could take a norc 14.5" and show them how much faster it is. At the range sure. It's lighter and with that shorter barrel it's more handy. If the range was where it was staying then it's a good argument. But that's not how it will be used. Nor would it be an appropriate choice.
I leave you with an old saying that comes to mind. It's a poor workman that blames his tools. In this case the tool is very capable for it's intended use.
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I'm sorry, what are we talking about now? The RCMP patrol carbine? Can someone fill me in as to the exact specs of said carbine? Pics would be nice.
I'm sure it's a solid reliable platform, it doesn't mean that they would not have been as well served by something else. Even another CC offering....
I'm sure it's a solid reliable platform, it doesn't mean that they would not have been as well served by something else. Even another CC offering....
why would civilian shooters care about the rcmp patrol carbine? shouldnt this be a rcmp matter?
not sure I get the arguments here one way or another
us civilians, spend our own money, therefore we have the luxury to decide to buy and use whatever the fack we want
the rcmp leos do not have that luxury
i own an iur, its awesome
i own a 6920 with an nsr and a bunch of other stuff, its awesome
i own a mk12, noveske spr, bcm kmr, etc, its awesome
i own a 15.7, its awesome
not sure I get the arguments here one way or another
us civilians, spend our own money, therefore we have the luxury to decide to buy and use whatever the fack we want
the rcmp leos do not have that luxury
i own an iur, its awesome
i own a 6920 with an nsr and a bunch of other stuff, its awesome
i own a mk12, noveske spr, bcm kmr, etc, its awesome
i own a 15.7, its awesome
WinterHawk
Regular
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario
Stick with Made in Canada for warranty purposes. As soon as that rifle leaves the US there is no warranty and contrary to popular believe it's just about impossible to sent it back for repair. You are also supporting your fellow Canadians.
I agree, go with Colt Canada and get more bang for your buck and keep an Canadian working. I own a SA20 and I swapped out the original upper for the IUR upper and you know what? Fit like a glove, tight as hell. There may be "better" rifles on the market, but for your money and that "Made in Canada" quality, you can't go wrong.
CreamySmooth
CGN frequent flyer
I haven't got time to go through all your points on my iPhone. But I'll give you my points.
-It is the point. As there's been so much crap added over the years that your number 1 survival tool, movement, has been completely compromised. Every piece of kit should be seriously considered for lightness and movement when added. IUR was poorly thought out by bureaucrats in Ottawa. ERT doesn't use them. That should say something.
-As I said... The 870 folder was removed BECAUSE it was heavier and bulkier. They were last used in 95. That was my point. The folder got caught on vests and snagged on everything and a standard stock was lighter. It also made buying a vehicle rack easier.
-Glock. I just destroyed your 12 pound argument. You know, what every other force uses. Because it's smart.
-M4. Just detroyed your next point on using it everywhere. At 1/3 the price.
-Manual of arms.... The RCMP just made drastic changes to thier courses of fire to start compensating for the fact that they practiced for target shooting, not a gunfight. Movement was added this year. Target shooting was the mindset in Ottawa when the IUR was chosen. Members are rapidly realizing they have the wrong weapon again. This isn't my opinion. Thank the lord a union is coming.
Later.
It says they bought the C8 before the IUR existed. But they'll probably replace the C8s with monolithic uppers, either MRRs or IURs, and there's plenty of police forces that have IURs (VPD for example) because they're JUST A THIRD OF A POUND HEAVIER. If the IUR was legitimately worse, explain why so many special operations units use them.
New York Trigger. Just "destroyed" your Glock argument.
DId you though? First off an IUR rifle is not "1/3 the price." A 6920 costs what these days... $1900 CDN? Buying an ambi CC lower with all the fixins is $1300 and the uppers were eventually $600... which means the police are probably buying them for $1500 complete? That's probably pretty much on par with what it would cost for them to buy cheaper 6920s from Hartford, and import them. And that doesn't even begin to address the ways in which a CC gun is not only better than an M4, but also better for our environment. The chrome lining's thicker and more resistant to cracking in Canadian winter climates, the choked hammer-forged barrels are second to none, etc etc.
I'm not sure why I bothered replying in such depth to a post that refers to training doctrine as manual of arms... because anyone that can confuse "manual of arms" with "training doctrine" or "tactics" is not someone that I'd trust to tell me what sort of rifle to buy.
