is a .223 enough for a deer?
- Thread starter Kyler
- Start date
No problem....I think the 223 isn't much inferior to the 30-30. Only problem is that unlike the 30-30 the trajectory might tempt you to shoot past it's useful range.
Here is some bullet testing with a varietry of 30-30 bullets from a Stevens 325B on the outside and inside are a 60 grain Nosler and the 64 grain WW Powerpoint. Target was wet newsprint. The 60 grain Nosler made the best penetration! The Powerpoint was very similar to 30-30 bullet action good depth and width.
Thanks for that. Looking at the one lost core bullet, it says alot abotu bullet construction vs caliber!
Takujualuk
CGN Regular
- Location
- Whitehorse, Yukon
What is surprising is how good most 308 caliber bullets act at 30-30 velocities. Penetration is usually quite good and even relatively soft bullets like the 125 Sierra Spitzer penetrate and hold together. This is the bullet we use for caribou in my wife's 30-30 Stevens. The 223 with Noslers outpenetrated the 30-30 with a narrower wound channel especially in the second half of penetration and with 64 Win PPoints the wound channel and penetration depth was similar to the 30-30 but again with the wound channel narrowing more than the 30-30 in the second half of penetration.
I'd put the wound channel volume of the .223 at 75-80% that of a 30-30, about 90-100% in the first half and 55-65% in the second half of penetration where the 223 closes up a bit more dramatically.
Bullet placement with both the 30-30 and .223 calibers is important as they don't have a whole lot of shocking power. The 223 would be significantly worse at quartering shots as it will expend most of it's energy into the first half of travel and when the bullet arrives at the killing zone it will be making inadequate wound channels. On broadside shots you probably wouldn't notice much difference between the two rounds.
I have done a lot of bullet testing with calibers as diverse as the 22 Hornet, 223, 22-250 AI, 6mm Rem, 6.5 Rem Mag, 284 Win, 308, 30-30, 350 Rem Mag, 358 Norma and 450 Marlin. The two factors that seem to rule wound channel depth and width are Kinetic Energy and Bullet Construction. The 223 is a bit light on energy( about 75% of a 30-30) but with the right bullet and good placement is usable. I figure it to be an experts rig and with good discipline is not a bad killer.
I wouldn't use it on Moose unless in a survival situation but have no doubt that it would work o.k. on a broadside shot as 75% of a 30-30 is not an insignificant impact.
Point is there are better big game rounds out there and so unless a person has a physical impairment that makes recoil a problem something with more power is a better bet. When you get up to 308 Winchester power levels the impact is a lot more noticeable. The margin of error increases and you can take shots you would need to pass up with the smaller round.
I'd put the wound channel volume of the .223 at 75-80% that of a 30-30, about 90-100% in the first half and 55-65% in the second half of penetration where the 223 closes up a bit more dramatically.
Bullet placement with both the 30-30 and .223 calibers is important as they don't have a whole lot of shocking power. The 223 would be significantly worse at quartering shots as it will expend most of it's energy into the first half of travel and when the bullet arrives at the killing zone it will be making inadequate wound channels. On broadside shots you probably wouldn't notice much difference between the two rounds.
I have done a lot of bullet testing with calibers as diverse as the 22 Hornet, 223, 22-250 AI, 6mm Rem, 6.5 Rem Mag, 284 Win, 308, 30-30, 350 Rem Mag, 358 Norma and 450 Marlin. The two factors that seem to rule wound channel depth and width are Kinetic Energy and Bullet Construction. The 223 is a bit light on energy( about 75% of a 30-30) but with the right bullet and good placement is usable. I figure it to be an experts rig and with good discipline is not a bad killer.
I wouldn't use it on Moose unless in a survival situation but have no doubt that it would work o.k. on a broadside shot as 75% of a 30-30 is not an insignificant impact.
Point is there are better big game rounds out there and so unless a person has a physical impairment that makes recoil a problem something with more power is a better bet. When you get up to 308 Winchester power levels the impact is a lot more noticeable. The margin of error increases and you can take shots you would need to pass up with the smaller round.
This is where things get confusing. How can penetration tests into phone books give somewhat equal penetration and yet on quartering shots on game, the .223 will not do the job that the .30-30 will do?
Takujualuk
CGN Regular
- Location
- Whitehorse, Yukon
Because the bullet action is a bit different. The 223 practically equals the 30-30 in the first half of penetration as far as wound channel widths go. Once the 223 runs out of initial speed the second half wound channels close up to a fair bit less than those made by the heavier wider, bullets of the 30-30.
So on a quartering shot the 223 will blast the dickens out of the non critical tissue (guts or connective tissue) and by the time it gets to the critical tissue(heart/lungs/liver) it will be doing less damage than the old 30-30.
On side shots the 223 might be as good as the 30-30 as far as killing power goes. In fact depending on bullet choice it might be better. The 170 grain FN's tend to not have much explosive effect in the 30-30 particularly when the speed is down to impact velocities of 1700-1900fps.
On quartering shots the 223 will tend to do less well than the 30-30, IMO due to giving up it's energy during the early penetration phase.
- Location
- Lakes District BC
Takujualuk, you have obviosly done alot of work with this, and that is great with a great ending statment as well, but I do have 3 questions for you:
#1. your out hunting deer in your area with a 223 and you get one down, the day is great, right up until a bear wanders in the area and starts acting aggresive, would you still be happy with the 223 or would you rather have your norma?
#2. as noted you have obviously spent several amounts of time with the rifle at the range and in the bush would you agree its fair to say someone who has litte to no hunting experience should not take a 223 out and use it on big game species?
#3. would you say that someone who does not reload and would be apt to use cheaper ammo like winchester pp or federal hunter pak ammo should be out plinking at big game?
in no way am I trying to be insulting or ignorant here, just looking at the fact that alot of guys hear stories of old timers using smaller calibers, inuit using them for polar bears etc but fail to have the understanding that these folks knew there rifles probably better than they knew there wives, and didnt just wake up 1 day and decide o play hunter with a small gun
thanks
Rob
#1. your out hunting deer in your area with a 223 and you get one down, the day is great, right up until a bear wanders in the area and starts acting aggresive, would you still be happy with the 223 or would you rather have your norma?
#2. as noted you have obviously spent several amounts of time with the rifle at the range and in the bush would you agree its fair to say someone who has litte to no hunting experience should not take a 223 out and use it on big game species?
#3. would you say that someone who does not reload and would be apt to use cheaper ammo like winchester pp or federal hunter pak ammo should be out plinking at big game?
in no way am I trying to be insulting or ignorant here, just looking at the fact that alot of guys hear stories of old timers using smaller calibers, inuit using them for polar bears etc but fail to have the understanding that these folks knew there rifles probably better than they knew there wives, and didnt just wake up 1 day and decide o play hunter with a small gun
thanks
Rob
Takujualuk
CGN Regular
- Location
- Whitehorse, Yukon
Well...I don't recommend the 223 for big game at all actually. It's an experts choice and has a narrow application of usability. Within this spectrum however it works fairly well...much better than you might be led to believe. You will note I brand it as INFERIOR" to the 30-30 for all around use and I am no booster of the 30-30 though it works as well within it's limitations.
As for the 223 reloads vs factory ammo the Win load with the 64 PP is as good as my reloads for big game use.
Nothing all-round about the 223, however, and there are much better choices available. To me real big game choices start at 6mm and 6.5 is much better. My wife now uses a Rem 600 in 6mm Rem with 100 partitions or 115 Barnes Originals as her go to gun.
This is the size of the typical meat caribou that I took with the 223 when we lived in Nunavut. No bigger than a deer and easier to kill. They were also out in the open and fairly easy to approach when familiar with their habits.
Just picked up a 1962 Ruger 44 magnum Carbine that works flawlessly....This might make it to her hands as well.
Just need to find the time to go hunting!
As for the 223 reloads vs factory ammo the Win load with the 64 PP is as good as my reloads for big game use.
Nothing all-round about the 223, however, and there are much better choices available. To me real big game choices start at 6mm and 6.5 is much better. My wife now uses a Rem 600 in 6mm Rem with 100 partitions or 115 Barnes Originals as her go to gun.
This is the size of the typical meat caribou that I took with the 223 when we lived in Nunavut. No bigger than a deer and easier to kill. They were also out in the open and fairly easy to approach when familiar with their habits.
Just picked up a 1962 Ruger 44 magnum Carbine that works flawlessly....This might make it to her hands as well.
Just need to find the time to go hunting!
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Well that's different. If you add the velocity of the vehicle to the velocity of the .223, it turns it into an uber dangerous big game round.
As long as you shoot in the same direction the vehicle is moving......
Seriously. A well-placed shot with a 223 should be just as deadly as a well placed shot from a bigger caliber. Within it's range. The zone where a bigger caliber might make up for a slightly off shot from a smaller caliber is very small. Outside that zone, a poorly placed shot will result in wounded game no matter what the caliber.
If you think you might have to shoot at longer distances, the bigger calibers, retaining more energy, get the nod.
I suppose you think mattel made m-16's too.
Frankly it would not suprise me if they did.
- Location
- big sky country
- Location
- big sky country
Thanks.
I am out of booze and getting ready for bed.
I am out of booze and getting ready for bed.
canadian hunter312
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Brant County
WTF newbie!
Go stroke your AIRSOFT. Adults talking here.
The .223 is capable within it's limits (as is any calibre), but not recommended.
LOL! i think the dude was joking you guys need to untwist your panties.
a .22 mag can and will take down a deer with a head or neck shot so im sure a .223 will work as well. on american hunting forums its very common for people to consistently put deer in the freezer with a .223, .22-250, etc.
personally i wouldnt use anything under a .243...
I have witnessed 3 neck shot whitetail deer, shot with 223 this season and am not impressed with the results. All three dropped the deer on the spot. Two of the three (223 Rem) were paralysed to some degree (one kept trying to get up but its rear legs were paralysed) and I had to cut their throats. The third (223 WSSM) lay there for half and hour, then got up and ran off, never to be seen again. For me personally, this is not a shot I intend to take having seen that. I much prefer the results I got with 308 through the heart lung area.
I'm not sure of his reasoning on doing that, other than thinking it was dead (it dropped like a stone)? Obviously the wrong action in hindsight. Not even sure exactly where the bullet struck. Why was it able to run off after he walked up to it? Must not have severed the spine. Yet it dropped?
Glock4ever
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
I have personally witnessed two deer killed with 60 grain Vmax bullets. I don't recommend the .223 Rem as a big game round but in all honesty, I was surprised at how both animals dropped. Reason I don't support the round - it is very easily deflected - the guy I was with in MB was aiming at the boiler room and hit the rump (deflected through ~10 yds of light cover) - that being said the doe dropped as it's pelvis was crushed by the bullet. The doe was about 160 lbs and died immediately on second follow up shot to back of the head. Second deer was a 300lb 8 point buck. It was also hit in the rump and dropped right away. It was able to crawl about 5 yds before a second shot dispatched it. Both shots were at about 60 metres. I can't deny that both rounds killed the animals dead but there was an obvious discomfort that the bullet seemed too light. When we cleaned the buck the bullet had completely shed it's core and we found the jacket of the second shot (head shot) behind it's left ear. It penetrated the skull but there was no exit. Maybe this is perfect maybe not I don't know. I think if you keep shots under 100m this round can do the trick.
