Boomer said:
So Rick -
Let's see, you disagree with my contention that bullets which have an impact velocity below 2000 fps transfer little energy to the target - then you post Fackler's diagram showing a .30 caliber bullet impact a target over 2000 fps. I'm not sure what your point is.
I dunno... keep right on reading and look at the results for the handgun bullets well below 2000 fps. Seems to me there is indeed a significant transfer of energy. Oh wait... you didn't see those, did you - scooted right on by them? Well here Boomer, let me help you with that:
You will note that all bullets were considerably under 2000 fps - not a whole whopping 17 fps over it like the one you're complaining about.
Can you see all those temporary cavities there now - or do the pictures need to be bigger?
Now your contention is that "that bullets which have an impact velocity below 2000 fps transfer little energy to the target", correct? Take a second - maybe even a third - look at the pictures above.
I'm not sure how you even get a permanent wound cavity without energy transfer, but we'll leave that alone for now. At this point we'll just deal with how those temporary cavities get there if in fact there is no energy tranfer as you claim. If energy transfer didn't cause those temporary cavities... what did? It wasn't the tooth fairy.
I await your explanation with rapt attention. In the meantime, like you, I'm not sure what your point is either. I do know that I don't find your statement that there is no energy transfer credible - particularly in the face of such graphic evidence.
If you do not believe that pure lead fragments, I believe your experience is minimal, because pure lead projectiles certainly do fragment - ask anyone who has killed a large animal with a foster shotgun slug.
Well Boomer, the only things I've ever killed with 12 gauge slugs, the slug kept right on going and is still out in the woods somewhere. On the other hand, I DO have a collection of .54 muzzleloader balls taken from deer and elk, and they're all pretty much intact except for a little flattening here and there. I have a few Minie balls as well - very much deformed, but still all there. In fact, they don't even come apart when shot into a gravel backstop. Wanna see the pictures (I know I'm not the only one here with a box of recovered bullets from game)?
Therefore - of course - I must concluded that your experience is minimal as well.
Compared to a 12,000 pound elephant a 900 gr .600 Nitro bullet is pretty insignificant.
A .6" size hole through the brain of an animal of any size is not insignificant. You're talking about a wound diameter that is as big all the way through as many of the bullets discussed here end up with as their maximum expansion. Like shotgun slugs and muzzleloaders, you've entered the domain of "pre expanded".
The African buffalo is not tremendously large, but it is the largest of Africa's dangerous game which is routinely taken with a soft point.
http://www.ultimateungulate.com/Artiodactyla/Syncerus_caffer.html
Hmmm... bigger ones ranging from 700 - 900 kg. Not tremendously large in Africa, perhaps, but certainly large by Canadian standards of size. I'm glad we at least agree on the point they're routinely taken with soft points, however. Doesn't make shooting black bears with expanding bullets so scary after all, does it? After all, we don't have too many 700 kg black bears in Canada.
Your experience with wide flat nosed bullets is apparently very limited as these bullets show superior penetration to any other type, and my own testing seems to support that.
Here's a picture for you Boomer:
That is a hunting bullet I designed - and use - cut for me by Mountain Molds. I have had similar designs cut in .40 for a 40/60 Maynard built on a Lee Enfield rifle, and .45 as well for the ubiquitous 45/70. And assorted handgun bullets.
Tell me... does that look like a wide flat nosed bullet to you or not? Will it help you if I tell you the meplat is about 82% of the bullet diameter?
Here's my take on the situation and your above stated opinion of my knowledge: If you haven't designed and had cut your own custom bullet moulds for your rifles, you really don't know bugger all about wide flat nosed bullets and are just riding on the coattails of those who do by buying their designs. So now you have your opinion of my knowledge, and I have mine of yours. Meanwhile, I'd love to see pictures of the cast bullets that you've designed and had custom moulds built for... can always learn from a fellow designer. That particular design above, you may be interested to know, weighs 250 grains and works exceedingly well out of everything from a .358 Winchester on up on critters like elk and moose... and bears.
By the way, if you want the CAD diagram for that WFN design, I'll happily give it to you for free. And for a nominal fee, if you provide me with the dimensions of your rifle's throat and ball seat, I'll provide you with a WFN design unique to your own rifle - complete with G3 drag coefficients and assorted other data. I'll even let you name the design. All you'll have to do is send it to a custom mould maker with a cheque - and I'll even give you a list of the people who do such work.
Are we having fun yet?
I believe that it has something to do with a shock wave moving ahead of the bullet, so little tissue comes in direct contact with it
Errrr... I have a question?
How can you say, on the one hand: "bullets which have an impact velocity below 2000 fps transfer little energy to the target" and then on the other hand talk about bullets creating a shock wave moving ahead of the bullet - so much so that little tissue comes in direct contact with it?
Call me crazy, but I see those as two statements that directly contradict each other...
Hocus-pocus like temporary stretch cavities from handgun bullets on large game is a fairy tail.
You bet - look at the pretty pictures above. BTW Boomer... what causes all that bloodshot meat within muscle groups themselves (as opposed to between muscle groups), well away from the permanent cavity? It wasn't the tooth fairy...
Much of the tissue which is stretched is muscle, organs which work by stretching, or arteries which are not at all traumatised by the passing of low velocity projectiles.
And what's causing all that bloodshot meat within muscle groups again?
Here's another interesting question: why is ordinance gelatin calibrated to the yield strength of tissue, and assuming they got it right, why would a handgun bullet that causes tearing and destruction outside of the actual bullet track in gelatin not cause similar damage in tissue?
Having gutted more than a couple of deer and elk taken with .54 caliber round balls that arrived at about the velocity of the handgun bullets in question, and at about the same size as those handgun bullets after they've expanded, I'll have to call BS on the idea that lungs, spleen, liver, muscle, etc is not traumatized by the passing of low velocity projectiles. No, it ain't like the results when a 250 grain bullet out of a .358 Norma Magnum or something similar goes through, but the idea that there's no trauma beyond the immediate diameter of the projectile is ridiculous.
Note to self: next hunting season, take macro lens and ruler along while out hunting. A picture is always worth a thousand arguments...
What those bullets must also do though in addition to traumatizing vital organs is to break big bones.
We ain't talking about elephants and buffalos here Boomer... just black bears.
If you choose an expanding handgun bullet, the bullet has already begun to open up in the skin and fat causing it to loose speed. How can this not be a disadvantage?
First, I think that's why they sometimes call them "controlled expansion" bullets Boomer... and why the bullets for your varmint rifles don't open up at quite the same rate as the expanding bullets for your .378 Weatherby or whatever. It might be why the exactly one whitetail I saw that had been shot with a soft point from a 416 Rigby looked like it had been shot with a solid - I doubt there was enough resistance in that scrawny deer to even begin to expand that bullet.
Second, yet again, we're not talking about elephants and buffalo here, Boomer - we're talking about black bears. You show me a black bear where 15 - 17" of expansion won't make it through the skull, cervical spine, etc from head on (we don't shoot black bears in the ass or quartering away and then call it a defensive shooting), and then we can talk about inadequate penetration.
