Is a full house 10mm more powerful than a .357 magnum?

[350 Mag]

Gatehouse,

Still waiting for a viable comparison that has the following criteria

The lesser caliber must have greater energy, muzzle velocity and greater S.D(as is the case when you compare the 10mm with the 45 ACP)....


Just curious if you have found one?

 

[Gatehouse]

So you want to find a "lesser" cartridge that has "greater" energy, velocity and SD than a "greater' cartridge....Wouldnt' that make the "lessser" cartridge the "greater" cartridge?

I believe I already explained (several times) why the comparison was made. (To show that paper ballistic data isn't the only way to evaluate a cartridge) but you don't seem to be able to grasp this.

Maybe you will understand this one better:

.270 Win
140gr bulllet
SD .261
BC .456
2900fps
2613.83 FT/LBS

.280 REM
140GR BULLET
SD .248
BC .485
3000 FPS
2797.20 FT/LBS

Which one is the better killer?

You can crunch numbers all day comparing SD, energy, bullet diameter, BC, velocity, penetration levels etc....The 280 zealots will claim victory, the JOC fans will claim victory, but the bottom line is that if you put those bullets in the same place of a charging bear, the results will be the same.

Sorta like comparing a hot loaded 10mm to a similarly loaded 45ACP.

 

[Halger280HVMag]

350Mag

I have to ask.
What are the specific guns that will KABOOM using the Armco .45-08?

Since this is about exposing facts examined under the cold light of day lets talk about some of the facts or lies you posted here?


You musted have missed my earlier post when you "left this thread"?






Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick

Of course, he finds it "normal" to replace the entire barrel in a Glock Model 20 so you can safely shoot those hot loads in it without risking a ka-boom, but it ain't "normal" to simply use a different recoil spring and buffer in a .45.

And Double Tap ammunition isn't "normal" ammunition either - but he doesn't have a problem with that either. Even though he can't get any to use killing paper targets in the first place...

And you're right. If it is some kind of a "race", .45 ACP owners can simply put in a different spring and shock buffer and get numbers that pretty clearly exceed whatever the 10mm can bring to the table. The 10mm, on the other hand, is what it is, and blowing it up trying to get the same numbers out of it you can get with a .45 ACP simply with a different spring, buffer, and prepped brass won't change that any.














You also still have not answered the fact that you advocate ANYONE owning a 45 ACP can drop in a recoil spring, buffer and use prepped brass and attain 1450 fps with200 gr bullet.

I allready acknowledged way back on page 2 that I was talking about Normal 45 ACP, not 45 Super, 45-08 etc etc.

The 45-08 is fantastic round(far superior to the original 451 Detonics) but you still have to pick a suitable firearm. There are MANY brand new and modern 45 ACP's on the market that would not handle the round and go....KABOOM!

 

[NAA]

Is full house 10mm more powerful than a .357 Magnum?

Probably... On paper...

But the .357 Magnum is still the best 1 shot stopper of 'em all.

 

[IM_Lugger]

So, as it looks to me, you have to wade through SEVEN 10mm loadings before finding one that stands significantly higher than the .45 ACP performance wise.

The reason a lot of the 10mm ammo doesn’t penetrate more than .45acp is because it was designed not to. A lot of people are concerned with over penetration; so most SD ammo will “only” do between 11” and 15”.

I have no doubt that with a right laod 10mm will easily out penetrate .45acp. If I had to carry a .45 in the bear country I'd load it with FMJ ammo; I'd rather have a gun that can punch a .45 hole that goes on 20"+ than .90" hole that's may not reach the vitals.

Also the extra energy of 10mm doesn’t just turn into vapour; gelatine tests do a good job showing the shock effect created by a high energy round....

 

[350 Mag]

350Mag

I have to ask.
What are the specific guns that will KABOOM using the Armco .45-08?

Gunnar would be the guy to ask about this...

I recently talked to him and one we talked about is S&W 4506, he says they have a "thin frame" where it locks up and would not use it.

I also believe he does not recommend Witness pistols.

Another that I would have to say is a Glock 21 with factory barrel. With a Barsto, KKM or equivalent you would probably be ok.

A few he reccomends are Norincos', STIs', and Paras'.

 

[350 Mag]

double post

 

[Rick]

The reason a lot of the 10mm ammo doesn’t penetrate more than .45acp is because it was designed not to. A lot of people are concerned with over penetration; so most SD ammo will “only” do between 11” and 15”.

I would suspect that if there are any concerns regarding overpenetration with SD ammunition, they extend to any caliber and SD ammunition you care to mention, not just 10mm - which would include .45 ACP, 40 S&W, .357 Mag, etc.

If I had to carry a .45 in the bear country I'd load it with FMJ ammo; I'd rather have a gun that can punch a .45 hole that goes on 20"+ than .90" hole that's may not reach the vitals.

You'd be fairly unique if you chose to carry FMJ ammunition in any caliber for bears. I'm of the opinion that:

• After forty years of studying wounds and incapacitation, Fackler probably knows what he's talking about when he says you need penetration in conjunction with a significant permanent wound cavity for rapid incapacitation (CNS hits excluded, of course). To quote Fackler: "To those who understand that in physics there is no "free lunch" it is also clear that this extra penetration depth can only be gained at the expense of a lessened effective diameter of permanent tissue crush"
• As conservation officers don't seem to be having a problem killing black bears with their 40 S&W's, their experience strongly suggests that a .40 or .45 with a good bullet design has more than sufficient penetration to reach vitals.
• Until I see black bears that require 20" of penetration from the front to reach the brain, spine, thoracic region, etc, I'll refrain from anything resembling FMJ that surrenders any expansion and resulting permanent crush cavity in exchange for maximum penetration.

Also the extra energy of 10mm doesn’t just turn into vapour; gelatine tests do a good job showing the shock effect created by a high energy round....

Yes, and gelatine makes cartridges using slower heavier bullets look out of place - but if muzzle energy had some kind of direct correlation to terminal ballistics, the boys who went off to Africa with .220 Swifts would have had much better success. And while many of the old cartridges from the era of the buffalo hunters would have looked absolutely pathetic when fired into gelatine or when comparing their muzzle energy to modern day cartridges, they pretty much proved how effective they were on very, very large game.

Of course, unless the gelatine has been properly constituted AND at the proper temperature - and that temperature was uniform throughout the block - when the bullets were fired into it, then it isn't calibrated to the tearing/crush strength of tissue to begin with.

Muzzle energy, momentum, Fuller Index, etc. are all just measurements to get a handle on things; none of them come anywhere near directly modelling what happens once the bullet hits hide.

 

[350 Mag]

So you want to find a "lesser" cartridge that has "greater" energy, velocity and SD than a "greater' cartridge....Wouldnt' that make the "lessser" cartridge the "greater" cartridge?

I said lesser caliber...as is the case with .40/10mm versus the 45???

I believe I already explained (several times) why the comparison was made. (To show that paper ballistic data isn't the only way to evaluate a cartridge) but you don't seem to be able to grasp this.

Maybe you will understand this one better:

.270 Win
140gr bulllet
SD .261
BC .456
2900fps
2613.83 FT/LBS





.280 REM
140GR BULLET
SD .248
BC .485
3000 FPS
2797.20 FT/LBS

This is still not a valid comparison as the 270(lesser caliber) has less muzzle velocity and muzzle energy.


Which one is the better killer?

You can crunch numbers all day comparing SD, energy, bullet diameter, BC, velocity, penetration levels etc....The 280 zealots will claim victory, the JOC fans will claim victory, but the bottom line is that if you put those bullets in the same place of a charging bear, the results will be the same.

Sorta like comparing a hot loaded 10mm to a similarly loaded 45ACP.

Gatehouse's (Watermelon to Wallnuts comparison)

22-250 vs the 45-90

22-250 has greater velocity
22-250 has greater energy
45-90 has greater sectional density.(obviously better/superior Bear cartridge) because the poor sectional density of the 22 caliber bullet would limit its pentration.


10mm vs 45 ACP

10mm has greater velocity
10mm has greater energy
10mm has greater S.D(10mm is better/superior Bear cartridge)

I allready explained (several times) your comparison is not valid...

22-250 vs the 45-90 CANNOT be considered valid because all criteria are not the same. The 22-250 has less S.D than the 45-90......(when comparing the 10mm to the 45 ACP the 10mm has greater velocity, greater energy, and GREATER S.D.)



As said before...you used this comparison to discredit my criteria saying there is more to the 10mm vs 45 debate than strictly numbers.

You sited that the 22-250 has greater muzzle velocity and energy than the 45-90, you then pointed out quite obviously that the 45-90 would be BETTER for dealing with Bears.

You then said your numbers game doesn't tell the whole story and my my criteria is lacking....

what you FAILED to take into account is that the 22-250 has less sectional density(than the 45-90) which translates into less penetration...which is CERTAINLY not the case with the 10mm vs the 45 ACP.

Please provide a valid comparison where the lesser caliber has GREATER muzzle velocity, energy and Section Density? This comparison has to back up YOUR claim...that my criteria is lacking.

Here are a few examples that back up MY criteria....that muzzle energy, muzzle velocity, and sectional density are valid criteria for selecting the superior cartridge.


Using your 22-250 vs the 45-90 comparison we shall take out the 22-250 and replace it with any of the following...

358 Norma Mag
375 H&H Mag
378 Weatherby Mag
416 Rigby
416 Weatherby


All of these lesser calibers have greater muzzle energy, muzzle velocity and S.D. than the 45-90, they would also be considered superior cartridges IMHO.

These are LESSER calibers but MORE powerful overall cartridges than the 45-90....therefore in this case numbers do not lie...as is with the 10mm vs the 45 ACP....numbers don't lie.


10mm is KING!!

 

[albertacoyotecaller]

Wow

Never would have thought this would have turned into 19 pages!

Anyone know where I can buy some good loads for my 40 S&W then?

 

[350 Mag]

Never would have thought this would have turned into 19 pages!

Anyone know where I can buy some good loads for my 40 S&W then?

Just wait...

Mick McNett is going to be sending me some penetration data on the 10mm with 230Gr Hardcast lead loads with wide meplat. Cannot wait to measurebate those numbers.

He is still working on getting DoubleTap to Canada which would be of great interest to the ATC crowd.(even for the guys carrying 40 S&W and 45 ACP).





Crafm is a dealer on here I think he was bring in some Corbon Ammo...would probably be the hottest you will find?

Check this link.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136224

 

[Rick]

Anyone know where I can buy some good loads for my 40 S&W then?

Good loads for???? An ATC?

Well, to the best of my knowledge the CO's are using Winchester Ranger T-series (think "Black Talon") ammunition, which I think is a 180 gr. bullet at around 1000 fps. It seems to crumple black bears fine for them when they need it to. However, it is "law enforcement only" ammunition, so you might find it a bit tough to get your hands on. If you know a CO, maybe not so hard...

My personal preference is for handloads using 200 gr. SWC style heat treated cast bullets with the hardness drawn out of the nose section. Failing that, I'd look at the 200 gr. Hornady XTP's. Reputable loads are well published and not hard to find - 6.1 gr. of Power Pistol, for example, will get you about 1000 fps out of a 4" bbl. - that's about 50 fps behind the figures Double Tap gives for their best 40 S&W load, so for all practical purposes you're going to get about the same performance in an ATC situation.

And of course, you can admire Double Tap figures all day, but it isn't normal ammunition that you just buy at the local gun shop. Try and find a box...

So, personally, I think handloading is the way to go.

 

[Gatehouse]

Here are a few examples that back up MY criteria....that muzzle energy, muzzle velocity, and sectional density are valid criteria for selecting the superior cartridge

I agree, but when I brought up the 22-250 and 45-90, you were not aware of SD yet. You hadn't mentioned it yet, as far as I could see. You were claiming 10mm superiority because it had more energy- So I responded that energy on paper wasn't the whole story.

Anyway, I do agree that you can compare cartridges using that information, but again, when comparing cartridges that are very close, (like the 10mm vs 45ACP) much of the paper data doesn't make a difference in the real world.


Like the 270 vs 280 comparison, which I switched some numbers on- All real numbers, that you could find in factory ammo or handloads :

The lesser caliber has GREATER muzzle velocity, energy and Section Density

.270 Win
140gr bulllet
SD .261
BC .456
3000 FPS
2797.20 FT/LBS

.280 REM
140GR BULLET
SD .248
BC .485
2900fps
2613.83 FT/LBS


Which one is the better killer?

Using 350 Mags criteria, the 270 is the better killer- But anyone that has shot alot of game knows that if you shoot these loads, it is not going to b able to ell the difference.

Sorta like comparing a hot loaded 10mm to a similarly loaded 45ACP.

 

[Rick]

Gatehouse, remember that PM you sent me a while ago concerning Chopperhead?

You need to read it...

 

[albertacoyotecaller]

For an ATC

Yes. I reload only for rifle and like the reliability of factory loads for ATC purposes.

I handled a Ruger 44 again and even though my hands are fairly big, they just don't seem big enough for these pistols.

 

[Gatehouse]

Gatehouse, remember that PM you sent me a while ago concerning Chopperhead?

You need to read it...

Okay, you are correct! Point taken! I should know better

Besdies, bear HUNTING is more fun, and we've been doing that alot lately!

Been seeing lots of bears around here, just not one that I wanted. I passed up on a bear and my buddy nailed it wiht his bow, his first bow killed bear.

Still haven't got into bowhunting, but I like going out with him, and I've used his bow a few times on targets, I see th eappeal, it's cool.

We've just started work on our new 3D range at the new range, I bet it's very popular in the next couple of years. I wondr how many ft/lbs those bear killing arrows have?

 

[Rick]

Yes. I reload only for rifle and like the reliability of factory loads for ATC purposes.

If you use a methodical workflow and know how to properly adjust and use your equipment, if anything, your handloads should be MORE reliable than factory - simply because every single thing about them has been visually inspected. No missing flash holes, primers without anvils, etc.; those are rare events with factory ammunition, but they do happen.

Here's my general workflow:

1. New brass only.
2. Cases are first examined for cracks or other flaws.
3. Cases are run through the resizing press, flash holes and primer pockets are uniformed, and cases are precisely trimmed to length.
4. Cases are then sorted by weight. All cases outside the chosen weight are "shooters" for practice, QC/QA.
5. Bullets are visually inspected and weighed to detect any with voids.
6. Primers are weighed visually inspected regarding anvils, priming compound, etc. It helps if you have an electronic scale...
7. Cases are individually primed using a hand primer for better feel when seating.
8. Powder charges are thrown, then trickled to exact weight.
9. Bullets are seated and subsequently crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp Die.
10. Carry rounds have sealant applied around edge of primer and case/bullet junction; any excess is wiped off.
11. Completed rounds visually inspected and then tested for proper chambering by being dropped in chamber of barrel with the barrel out of the pistol.
12. Carry ammunition is finally marked and kept segregated from the "shooter" ammunition it appears identical to.

It's just a matter of visual inspection and QC/QA at every step of the process. It's a bit time consuming, but you don't reload carry ammunition in thousand round lots...

I handled a Ruger 44 again and even though my hands are fairly big, they just don't seem big enough for these pistols.

Yeah, they all seem to bite me and screw up my shooting.

 

[Rick]

Still haven't got into bowhunting, but I like going out with him, and I've used his bow a few times on targets, I see the appeal, it's cool.

Well, all that stuff I sent you a couple of years ago still applies, except the bows have all gotten much better since then. I really do like the new Bowtech's, having shot them at some of the bow shops down here in Montana, but it is almost hard to buy a bad bow these days. Ian Bunbury in Whistler was doing a bit of bowhunting last time I was up your way, but I didn't meet many other bowhunters when I was there back in the early 90's. Rankin could put you in touch with Ian if you don't know him.

We've just started work on our new 3D range at the new range, I bet it's very popular in the next couple of years.

Good 3D ranges really do seem to attract archers like honey draws in bees. I prefer the Zen-y plinking away at a target 90 yards away (that's the width of my property, so...). Totally irrelevant to bowhunting ranges, but it magnifies every single tiny mistake you make, and after shooting at those distances, shooting at bowhunting ranges makes them look so big it's like shooting at the side of an aircraft hanger.

I wonder how many ft/lbs those bear killing arrows have?

Well, if they weren't Easton 2514's, Beman 9.3's, etc., they probably didn't have adequate penetration...

 

[Scarecrow]

Can someone give me a source for factory full house 10mm loads?

 

[350 Mag]

Can someone give me a source for factory full house 10mm loads?

In Canada hard to find.

Only one I have heard of is Crafm on here is in process of bringing in Cor-Bon Ammo.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136224

There is tons of reloading info here...for every major powder manufacturer...

http://glocktalk.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=67