Is a full house 10mm more powerful than a .357 magnum?

[IM_Lugger]

This is getting lame...

Factory SAMMI .45acp is NOT as powerful factory 10mm, not even close! Just like .44mag is more powerful than 10mm... .45ACP is a SD round, (true) 10mm is hunting round.

In the same gun 10mm will have a slightly higher capacity than .45 - you just can't argue that; .400 is smaller than .451 that's a simple fact!

 

[Gatehouse]

This is getting lame...

Factory SAMMI .45acp is NOT as powerful factory 10mm, not even close! Just like .44mag is more powerful than 10mm... .45ACP is a SD round, (true) 10mm is hunting round.

In the same gun 10mm will have a slightly higher capacity than .45 - you just can't argue that; .400 is smaller than .451 that's a simple fact!

What is lame is comparing apples to oranges. And when you compare 45ACP ammo that is loaded to specs from 80 years ago to 10mm specs that are new, that is apples to oranges.

 

[muh-muh-muh-mauser]

Since this, like so many other threads, has turned into a ".45acp vs. some other round", I think they should make a forum just for these debates...since .45acp is clearly the best...

.45acp vs. 9x19
.45acp vs. 10mm
.45acp vs. 7.62x39
.45acp vs. 7.92x57
.45acp vs. 12.7x108
.45acp vs. 14.5x114
.45acp vs. 20x180R
.45acp vs. 60cm, 2.117 ton "Karl" Mörser shell

etc...

 

[IM_Lugger]

What is lame is comparing apples to oranges. And when you compare 45ACP ammo that is loaded to specs from 80 years ago to 10mm specs that are new, that is apples to oranges.

When you compare one factory cartridge to another it is a fair comparison . It’s apples to oranges only when you compare a wildcat cartridge to SAMMI factory one.
If you load .45acp to 10mm pressures it would no longer be .45ACP .45 is a low pressure round; it was designed to move a heavy bullet at relatively low speed.

 

[Gatehouse]

When you compare one factory cartridge to another it is a fair comparison . It’s apples to oranges only when you compare a wildcat cartridge to SAMMI factory one.
If you load .45acp to 10mm pressures it would no longer be .45ACP .45 is a low pressure round; it was designed to move a heavy bullet at relatively low speed.

Actually, when discussing 45ACP vs 10mm we have been comparing factory ammo made by Doubltap ammo company.

 

[IM_Lugger]

That's cool, but 10mm Double tap is still more powerful than their .45acp laod (same bullet weight is used to keep it fair);

10mm 200gr @1300fps =750 ft-lbs
.45acp 200gr @1125fps = 562 ft-lbs

 

[Gatehouse]

You haven't read this whole thread, have you?

 

[IM_Lugger]

Must've skiped a few pages...

but if it's already been established than why is this threas keeps going?

 

[wobbles99]

This is worse than hearing guys argue over Ford vs. Chevy.

Or the ol' 270 vs. 30-06.

The differences are so small that anything you'd hit it with, whether targets or animals, wouldn't know the difference.

The only thing that bothers me about 350mags comments is the "45ACP belongs in a museum.

So tell me 350mag. If the 45acp is so old then why is it that almost every handgun manufacturer's newest and greatest service pistol is chambered in 45acp but surprisingly they seem to have left out the mighty 10mm?

The way I see it is, like rifles, there are the mainstays of calibers. The ones that are bread and butter. The ones that have lasted the test of time and people have come to trust. I'm talking rounds like the 9mm, the 45acp, even a relative newcomer, the 40 S&W. They may not be the fastest, most powerful round out there but they work, there is a lot of literature out there to back them up.

Then There are rounds that are different. Not nessisarily bad though. The 10mm is a good example. Sure it provides a slight edge over the 45 (when comparing hot loads to hot loads) but it will never be a round that will fly off the shelves. Mainly because of the fact that it really doesn't offer much of an advantage over the 45acp, not enough to warrant paying more for anyway.

So to sum up what I'm saying. Your 10mm is a little bit superior ballistically but in terms of affordability, availability, variety, and popularity the 45acp has already won. There's also the aformentioned 45-08 which is ballistically superior and with few mods can be shot through at 45acp pistol, which can then be converted back just as easily. Which give the versatility edge to the 45 as well.

 

[NAA]

Well, I dunno if this thread's worth the read of all the pages... but I love the 1911... and I love the .45ACP... but then I also have a Colt 1911 Delta in 10mm... so there's room for both for me...

 

[350 Mag]

This is worse than hearing guys argue over Ford vs. Chevy.

Or the ol' 270 vs. 30-06.

The differences are so small that anything you'd hit it with, whether targets or animals, wouldn't know the difference.

The only thing that bothers me about 350mags comments is the "45ACP belongs in a museum.

So tell me 350mag. If the 45acp is so old then why is it that almost every handgun manufacturer's newest and greatest service pistol is chambered in 45acp but surprisingly they seem to have left out the mighty 10mm?

The way I see it is, like rifles, there are the mainstays of calibers. The ones that are bread and butter. The ones that have lasted the test of time and people have come to trust. I'm talking rounds like the 9mm, the 45acp, even a relative newcomer, the 40 S&W. They may not be the fastest, most powerful round out there but they work, there is a lot of literature out there to back them up.

Then There are rounds that are different. Not nessisarily bad though. The 10mm is a good example. Sure it provides a slight edge over the 45 (when comparing hot loads to hot loads) but it will never be a round that will fly off the shelves. Mainly because of the fact that it really doesn't offer much of an advantage over the 45acp, not enough to warrant paying more for anyway.

So to sum up what I'm saying. Your 10mm is a little bit superior ballistically but in terms of affordability, availability, variety, and popularity the 45acp has already won. There's also the aformentioned 45-08 which is ballistically superior and with few mods can be shot through at 45acp pistol, which can then be converted back just as easily. Which give the versatility edge to the 45 as well.

I have a 45 ACP too and I like the cartridge...I just get a little excited when someone offers it up as an alternative to 10mm Auto when it comes to Bear Defense....? When CLEARLY factory 10mm is far superior to factory 45 acp.

Not sure why I even care?

Makes no difference to me cause the closest I can come to carrying is a rifle....in which case I will be better off anyways.

 

[NAA]

I subscribe to the axiom that if you are going to keep a pistol around for "bear defence", no matter what cartridge it is in, then make sure the front site is filed off flush & nice & smooth... Better to coat the entire front of the pistol in KY jelly, too...

That way when the bear stuffs that pistol up your a$$ it won't hurt so durn much...

 

[350 Mag]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrashb
No, he is using your criteria to compare 22-250 to 45-90, demonstrating that your criteria are either inadequate or incomplete

Exactly.

And I thnk that everyone that isn't a 10mm Zealot can understand that.

Your comparing watermelons to wallnuts here???

Please explain how this is a RELAVANT comparison??? For us newbs? take it slow and explain it step by step?


What is the sectional density of 22-250 bullet? .199(Speer #13)

What is the sectional density of 45-90?(uses 45-70) .272( Speer # 13)


What is sectional density of 230 Gr 45 ACp? .162(Speer #13)

What is the sectional density of 200 gr 10mm auto? .179 (Speer #13)

As you can plainly see....10mm has a greater sectional density than 45 ACP...yet 22-250 is a little on the light side when compared with the 45-90...so I still think your comparison is GARBAGE?


Definition...Ballistics 101.(or measurebating as RICK coined)


Sectional density (SD) is the numerical result of a calculation that compares a bullet's weight to its diameter. To calculate a bullet's sectional density divide the bullet's weight (in pounds) by its diameter (in inches), squared. The higher the SD number the better the SD, and the heavier a bullet is in proportion to its diameter.

SD is important because it has a significant effect on penetration. Other things being equal (like impact velocity, bullet design and material, etc.) the higher the SD number, the better the bullet's penetration. In other words, a skinny bullet of a given weight tends to penetrate better than a fat bullet of the same weight, because it concentrates the same force on a smaller area of the target. For example, if other factors are equal, a 150 grain .270 bullet will penetrate better than a 150 grain .35 caliber bullet.

Penetration is important because the bullet must get well inside an animal to disrupt the functioning of its vital organs. A bullet that fails to penetrate the fur, skin, muscle, and bone necessary to reach the vital organs is very unlikely to bring an animal down.
SD stays the same for all bullets of the same weight in the same caliber--shape does not affect SD. This information is important to remember when comparing rifle bullets.



Next time you try a comparison...try and make sure YOUR lesser caliber has a greater sectional density...which is the case when you compare 45 acp to 10mm....

A FAIRER comparison would be....the 340 Weatherby(SD .313) to the 45-90(SD .272)....because the Weatherby has GREATER section density than the 45-90.

Do we have to debate these 2???









Factory 10mm vs Factory 45 ACP


FASTER, FLATTER, MORE ENERGY, MORE PENETRATION, GREATER SECTIONAL DENSITY etc etc etc....

Now please tell me what is missing or imcomplete...what more do you need to know???


...SOUNDS LIKE we have a WINNER TO ME.

 

[acrashb]

Please explain how this is a RELAVANT comparison???

First, perhaps if you stopped shouting you'd get less emotional responses in turn from other people.

Second, the comparison is relevant to your criteria. You use your criteria to assert that 10mm is markedly superior to 45 for shooting bears.

To test the validity of the criteria, and therefore the assertion, we would apply them to other combinations of cartridges and see if the results make sense.

Since the results of applying your criteria nonsensically show the 22-250 as a better bear cartridge than a 45-90, your criteria must not be complete or must contain errors or both. So the criteria can't be trusted to compare the effectiveness of 10mm and 45 either.

I don't know or care if the 10mm is better than the .45 for shooting bears; I do have an interest in the use of silly, demonstrably useless criteria as you have proposed. If you're going to argue "x is better than y because...", the "..." part has to make sense.

Now please tell me what is missing or imcomplete

That would be your job. Others have demonstrated, as above, that something must wrong - now you can go and do the work to find out what it might be if you so choose. Hint: terminal ballistics.

 

[350 Mag]

First, perhaps if you stopped shouting you'd get less emotional responses in turn from other people.

Second, the comparison is relevant to your criteria. You use your criteria to assert that 10mm is markedly superior to 45 for shooting bears.

To test the validity of the criteria, and therefore the assertion, we would apply them to other combinations of cartridges and see if the results make sense.

Since the results of applying your criteria nonsensically show the 22-250 as a better bear cartridge than a 45-90, your criteria must not be complete or must contain errors or both. So the criteria can't be trusted to compare the effectiveness of 10mm and 45 either.

I don't know or care if the 10mm is better than the .45 for shooting bears; I do have an interest in the use of silly, demonstrably useless criteria as you have proposed. If you're going to argue "x is better than y because...", the "..." part has to make sense.

I am not shouting...just typing boldly so nothing is missed...this is a debate. I am not the one that has resorted to name calling??

As I clearly pointed out...

22-250 has Less SD than 45-90

10mm Auto has Greater SD than 45 ACP.

Thus this comparison he used is USELESS...

Please try another comparison where energy, velocity and S.D are ALL greater??

I will patiently wait for either yourself or Gatehouse to produce a valid comparison to back up your claim?

Nothing is missing...?

10mm auto is faster, more energy and greater sectional density than 45 ACP...


Comparison Chart.


10mm vs 45 acp ...

10mm velocity greater
10mm energy greater
10mm S.D greater


22-250 vs 45-90

22-250 velocity greater
22-250 energy greater
45-90 MUCH greater S.D


Therefore INVALID COMPARISON...

Please try another comparison where energy, velocity and S.D are ALL greater??

 

[Dave L.]

"You judge guns by numbers, one, two, three,
Follow these lines, and you'll see,
It's just manufacturing hype, that's all there is to it,
Only an idiot can never see through it.
If you're gonna take guns by numbers you'd better know,
That you can add and subtract 'till your head nods to and fro,
But it doesn't change the effectiveness of a well-placed shot,
Instead of an artillery strike that hit its mark not!"

- Dave.

 

[350 Mag]

Time to post this again...I am not alone on this one?

Besides many others not to mention here are a few lesser known others...


Jeff Cooper(a long-time 45ACP guru) who longed for a cartridge that offered EVERYTHING the 45 ACP did and MORE...so what did he do?....develope the 10mm!

If the 45 ACP is better at stopping game why bother go any further? Why bother developing the 10mm?

After the infamous Miami shootout the F.B.I decided on the 10mm OVER the 45 ACP....sighting..."it tested better in all categories"...vs. 45 ACP(sigh...passed over by the FBI?)



JJ Hack wrote this NOT me...

Quick bio.

Former Wildlife Control(mainly for Bears) with DNR
Professional Black Bear Guide (handguns almost exclusively)
Owns South African Safari Outfitting
Editor of Bear Hunting magazine.
Has been witness/guide to and/or dispatched himself some several hundred (if not 1000)Black Bears almost exclusively with handguns.


But because JJ refers to steam as "smoke" he is somehow discredited and his opinions do not matter?....much the same as mine?(this according to OUR resident Bear Killing expert Rick) Who "claims" to have killed 2 and this makes him an expert?



I have had quite a few guys over the years ask about handgun cartridges for bear hunting. I really like hunting bears with handguns. I have likely taken more with a handgun then by any other means myself. Handguns have some limitations and some, even though referred to as handguns are more like little handheld rifles then handguns. The general term of handgun seems to stretch the definition quite a bit to include these single shot cannons!

When I think of a handgun I see a revolver or semi-auto pistol in my mind. However today the Thompson Contender and other single shot
handguns seem to have taken over as the handgun of choice for serious big game hunters. I have owned many contender barrels and several contender actions in my life so IÂ’m quite familiar with them.

During my early years as a Professional Hunter I was using dogs to hunt lions and bears. I took out a number of guys from the mid-west and eastern states for bears during the spring Idaho hunts and the fall Washington hunts. It was not unusual to take 20 or 30 hunters out per year and shoot 30-40 bears per season. The Idaho regulation allowed 2 bears per hunter per year and the Washington regulations allowed only one fall bear per person.

We booked a hunter from Ohio early in our guiding business. He was a police officer that wanted to hunt using his on duty carry gun. In Idaho any gun .22 center-fire or larger was the minimum for big game. Washington State had muzzle energy minimum requirement at that time. We took the policeman out on the hunt with his 45 ACP shooting 250-grain soft point bullets. His first bear was treed and shot without much trouble. The bear was in the tree about 20 yards above us. We caught our breath, took a couple photos and then he prepared for the shot and fired. The impact was solid, smoke could easily be seen coming out of the hole in the bearÂ’s chest. The bear was angry and peeling bark from the tree after being hit! He began to climb further up the tree when I yelled hit him again. I did not want the bear coming down with the dogs tied up and unable to escape from this angry wounded bear. He was about 225-240 pounds. A nice brown colored typical Idaho spring bear. At the second shot which hit nearly the same place as the first the bear really started going up the tree fast and I yelled to shoot again. I think the third shot missed but the forth hit him solid sounding like a baseball bat hitting a homerun.

The bear was barely visible up in the branches of the tall fir tree when all of a sudden we heard him crashing down and falling to the ground. When he hit the ground he was up in a flash and rolling and running down the hill. He was dead when he came to a stop on the flat, about 100 yards below us.

This experience was really educational for me. I saw this bear shot quite a few times with little effect from that 45 ACP shooting good 240 grain soft point bullets. The hunters accuracy was great, the bullets were big and heavy, and the bear was close. Why would this combination not be a much better killer? The hunter was thrilled and excited to go shoot another bear! This time he loaded his 240-grain HP’s for the hunt. We had a conversation regarding the lack of “crumple power” his gun had shown. He was surprised I felt that his gun was weak, or exhibited a lack of power. He asked what I was expecting from a handgun. I said I expect a bear shot in the center of the chest with a bullet to die in seconds, not continue to climb a tree and growl or be in a fighting mood. I also said if the bear comes out of the tree alive next time, I would also have to shoot him to protect my dogs. The hunter, although he understood the issue with the dogs, was still surprised by my opinion of his guns performance. He also respected my need to guard the dogs should a problem occur with the next bear.

The second bear was bayed and running and bayed and running all day. ItÂ’s a trait big bears have so I was quite worried about the gun he had. Eventually this bear also treed and we were able to get to the base of the tree before he jumped out again. It was a big bear of at least 300 pounds. I also carried my .44 magnum revolver this time, as backup. At the shot, which the bear took in the center of his chest all he did was growl and slap the tree with his paw. I said keep shooting until he falls, if he comes down alive IÂ’m going to have to shoot him too.

This bear started to come down the tree. At the next shot he stopped and began to climb further up the tree but fell dead when he hit the ground in a moment or two. The Ohio policeman was thrilled again and really excited to see that his carry gun was so good at killing a big animal like this bear. Far-be it from me to ruin his feelings on the hunt or his gun, but I thought the performance was pathetic! He returned home amongst the most satisfied of all the clients I have ever had. He must have done a great sales job too, because for the next several years the majority of my hunters were mid western police officers using their carry guns for hunting. During this time I relived many of these types of multiple shot hunts at close range with various types of handguns. I suppose it’s where my opinionated feelings have come from regarding handguns for bears or other big game. I also have to laugh when I hear guys talking about “back up” guns for hikes in bear country, or while fishing in Alaska. I also see this kind of chat on the Internet hunting forums. Many of the guys who really believe their handgun is the “be all-end all” choice for protection. They would likely be leaving the dead weight of their gun home if they saw it’s pathetic performance on a 300 pound black bear, much less an angry 1000 pound brown bear or grizzly!

There have been a lot of handgun cartridges used over the years that I would consider worthless hunting guns for big game. The first is the 38
special. ItÂ’s lack of penetration and poor bullets are not meant for hunting. A human being is a very soft and mentally weak animal. A Human shot in the leg will go down for the count screaming for help. A deer or bear shot the same way will be a 100 yards away or more before you realize you made a bad shot. I have seen 30 pound coyotes shot with a 357 magnum run a long way before falling down. A man shot the same way would be praying for his life. There are so many drug induced mental problems with humans that those dopers who are shot might be as hard to stop as a bear or deer. The drugs would likely make them more worry free and likely to flee or fight with a serious wound. If I were a policeman watching how my carry gun performed on a bear that allowed him to climb a tree, after a perfectly centered chest shot I would certainly consider a bigger gun! It seems to me many criminals are on dope and they would be like shooting an adrenalin filled bear!

So what are the cartridges which are failures, and the cartridges which are gems in the handgun world according to my experience with hundreds of bears killed? The bad choices are the 38 caliber the 9mm, and the 40S&W. These three should be strictly police work, targets or plinkers. The 40 S&W, and 9mm need cleaning and attention daily. I have seen plenty of these semi-autos fail to cycle with pine needles jammed into them and leaf mulch or dirt in the action. They seemed to have the highest level of cleaning and maintenance needed by far. Revolvers on the other hand seem to be trouble free and made for hunting!

The next group of guns can kill bears but I would certainly not consider them hunting guns. The 357 magnum is able to kill a bear much better then the 9mm and the 38 special even though they actually shoot the same bullets. The 357 mag is much better then the 40S&W as well. The 357-magnum case is just a bigger capacity shell able to provide much better performance. If I were a cop itÂ’s likely what I would carry based on what I saw it do to bears of all sizes. DonÂ’t mistake me here, I donÂ’t like it as a hunting gun for big game especially bears. The 45ACP is another gun which worked but not what I would like in a bear, or big game crumpling handgun. I think soft point bullets with maximum loads would give you a false sense of security for bear backup as well. I donÂ’t see the hard cast bullets in 357 mag being enough better to trust 100 percent of the time. They are not what I would carry and I would never suggest anyone hunt even the smaller black bears or deer with one. The .44 special was a decent performer but again it fell short of the crumple effect I like to see in a bear hunting gun.

This next group is where I think the minimum line is drawn. The 41 magnum and the 10mm seem to have the power to really make an impression
on a bear. I have seen both these cartridges knock bears down and break leg bones. Something the others just donÂ’t seem to be able to manage
consistently. These guns shoot over 1000 fps with bullets well into the 200-grain weight category. They seem to have nearly equal power and
accuracy as well. This is where I would suggest a minimum bear hunting handgun for close range start. They are certainly less than 50 yard guns but a great tool for bait and hound hunting. I would not suggest this cartridge as a backup or self defense against bears, only for hunting.

Finally the best group of guns. These are cartridges, which have never failed to decide matters and have the ability to crumple a bear in his tracks most of the time. The .44 magnum, the 45 long colt, and the 454. I have killed dozens of bears with the .44 magnum in my life and I don’t recall a single one running off after the first shot. I have recovered very few bullets and have broken the bones of the shoulder and legs countless times. These guns are more like rifles in performance then the typical police handguns I’ve seen so often. With a 240 grain hollow point going 1200 or more FPS the .44 magnum revolver is at the top of the heap as a commonly used hunting handgun. With Randy Garrett's hard cast ammo it will whistle though the shoulders of any bear in America. My .44 magnum was a Ruger Red hawk with a 7.5” barrel. It was an easy to shoot gun with plenty of crumple power. The same gun in 45 Long colt or 454 would be as good at getting the job done. I also have a 4” barrel Smith and Wesson Mountain gun that is as good but do to the lower Velocity of the short barrel it has a distance limitation of about 40-50 yards in my opinion. I consider these the proper size handguns for hunting the big game of the world.

The final “sub-category” are the wildcats, the contenders, and the new big bore revolvers. There is now a whole host of big bore revolvers like the 480 Ruger, the 50 caliber S&W, and the 50 Linebaugh. There is even a 45/70 revolver available now! Clearly all these are excellent bear killers if you decide to pack the additional weight and handle the massive recoil forces.

Keep these three factors in mind when deciding on a handgun for big game or bears. Make certain it has 1000 fps impact velocity, not muzzle velocity. .40 caliber or greater diameter, and finally, heavy bullets in the mid 200-grain weight range or bigger. With handguns so long as the impact velocity is about 1000 fps the best way to improve power and visual effect is by increasing diameter and weight of the bullet.

Remember also there are ways of having an effective increase in bullet diameter without changing caliber. Make sure if you use hard cast bullets you have the largest flat nose on the bullet possible also known as the “meplat”. Randy Garrett loads a bullet in his ammo which has a large flat nose which is almost bore diameter! This has an enormous effect on bullet impact over a pointed or rounded nose bullet. Granted the over all diameter has not changed but the bullets impact diameter has improved by a whole bunch with such a big flat nose.

One other thing to consider, donÂ’t think that just because you load a heavy hard cast bullet you have the most powerful load for your gun. This is a very common mistake. Those big heavy bullets will often whistle clean through a big bear like a field tipped arrow. The bears will die but often show little bullet impact reaction. They also tend to run off and die a great distance away. In my experience a high velocity hollow point bullet will cause a significant impact reaction and almost always allow an additional shot while the bear is stunned. The bullets about 240-260 grains in weight as fast as you can drive them will always show a greater impact effect then the heavy hard cast bullets do. They donÂ’t penetrate as well or break big bones as well, but they donÂ’t need to on a black bear. I have shot clean through many many black bears broadside with a 240-grain hollow point bullet at 1200-1300fps muzzle velocity. Upon impact the bears will stop and spin around biting at the wound and struggle to move away. With the many I have shot using a 300 plus grain hard cast bullets, they have launched out of sight like a rocket. Showing little if any reaction to being hit.


DonÂ’t mistake those big heavy hard cast bullets for the most powerful ammunition your gun can use. They are when matched to the proper game, like buffalo, moose, elk, and many African species. However for the typical 250 to 500 pound soft skinned black bear they are a mistake to use.

Consider what works better on a deer shot through the lungs. A 375HH with a 300 grain solid having 4500 foot pounds of energy, or a 270 caliber rifle shooting a 130 grain soft point bullet with only 2400 foot pounds of energy? Clearly you see the energy is far greater and the bullet weight and diameter is bigger on the 375HH. Upon impact the 300-grain solid blows a hole right through and you cannot even tell if you hit the animal. With the explosive 130-grain bullet from the .270 the deer will launch into the air with a nerve reaction and fall within a few steps. ItÂ’s the projectile that decides the result much of the time, not the perceived, or calculated power your gun has.

DonÂ’t focus so much on muzzle energy, or the hype surrounding heavy hard cast bullets. The hard-cast bullets do have exceptional penetration, but at the cost of small diameter wounds which donÂ’t often have the same effect as the bigger diameter hollow point wounds which have much more of a shocking or stunning effect. The benefits an explosive soft point or hollow-point will provide you with is a certain visual reaction, and significant tissue trauma. The heavy hard cast bullets are designed for exceptional penetration only. Randy is a friend of mine we have sat and talked about this paradox of bullet choice many times. Black bears absolutely realize more trauma from higher velocity soft bullets, or hollow points. The super hard-cast heavy bullets pass through so quickly with so little transfer of bullet impact that the reaction is poor. Yes both designs will kill bears, but the faster pass through of the solids will make your effort to locate the bear much longer. Often I have seen hunters consider their shot a miss because the bear will show no reaction at all to being hit. If this kind of bullet is chosen the best solution is to break bones and hope the fragments of projected bone will assist in the penetration of important organs like the lungs and heart. If brown bears are the main target then the heavy hard cast bullets make sense. They can be 4-6 times the weight of a black bear and you will likely be shooting for shoulder bones on these big bears. Then the big hard cast bullets are the perfect choice.

I have not come to these conclusions by seeing one or two bears killed, but by seeing as many as several hundred killed. Anyone can see a bear shot with spectacular results once or twice and assume the cartridge bullet combination is perfect. However seeing the same combination twenty, thirty, or more times really starts to give you higher resolution repeatable results. The results that carry the most weight are the ones with the greatest resolution or highest numbers. I have heard countless hunters claiming that their XYZ caliber and bullet is the perfect choice. When asked why they think this, the reply is that they shot a bear with it one time and it worked perfectly. Well in my opinion one time does not make for a very scientific or credible set of facts! This works the other way as well. Plenty of people will make or see a bad shot on game and assume they need a bigger gun. When in fact they only needed to make a better shot!

jj


here is some MORE gold from JJ...



A bit lower down on this forum there was a thread regarding black bears and 44 magnums. I worked for much of my life in a bear damage management program in Washington state. My job week in and week out seasonally was to remove problem bears from a 380,000 acre tree farm which was bordered by an enormous wilderness area with a seemingly endless supply of black bears. I am currently the Western editor of bear hunting magazine, and a Professional Hunter in the country of South Africa. This past season in Africa my 19 clients shot and killed 117 big game animals in 8 weeks of hunting. That was just one season!
I mention these things so you realize my experience level with big to "HUGE" game is significant. A person needs a bit of resolution in his experience. One or two animals or even a dozen does not make the averaage guy an expert in all that can happen or go wrong. A real authority in the way bullets perform in living tissue needs to see hundreds of big animals shot to study the results and the reactions. From archery, to shotguns and rifles crossbows, and handguns or Muzzle loaders. I have killed or been involved in the direct harvest of hundreds of bears including Brown and grizzly while guiding in Alaska.

When you read this post which follows Remember I'm not just blowing smoke, I've been there! The .44 magnum with a good load will fold up and kill any black bear alive with ease! I don't know who the fellow was that gave the presentation but my guess is that he is baised in some way against handguns, or has little faith in the average user(most likely). I have shot many dozens if not over a hundred with a 44 magnum and never lost a single one. As far as I'm concerned it's nearly the perfect gun for black bear hunting over bait or for as far as 75 yard shooting, maybe further!

Here is my other post from below:
I might be able to save you some grief and give you a reliable and proven solution. I have had to kill several hundred bears in my life. Many were not in a very happy mood and quite a few would have had my hide torn off PDQ had it not been they were in a foot snare. My Job as a bear hunting guide and as a wildlife manager for many years gave me insight into some conditions regular folks might only see once in a hundred life-times!

First the .44 magnum is plenty of gun for blackbear self defense. Not for brownies!

Next we have to consider the difference between hunting bears and stopping or imobilizing bears instantly. There is enough difference between the two that many folks get confused when they talk about the ammunition they are suggesting for the gun your asking about. If I were hunting bears a heavy hard cast bullet would be a fair choice. It leaves two .430 diameter holes and usually enough blood to follow to the trophy. The key part of that phrase is "follow to the trophy" !
You will be following the bear because the heavy hardcast bullets will in every case whistle through at a handgun hunting distance broadside shot. This impact is about the equal to a field tipped arrow. The bear has very little reaction except to hunch up for a brief moment and spring forward running as fast as possible often times covering 100 yards and remaining alive for another 30 seconds to a minute or more. Sometimes requiring a follow up shot.

Now consider the bear who is a threat to you. Broadside is out, and bears do not attack while standing. So you have an animal coming at high speed with his head only inches from the ground. If you shoot at his head while the distance is closing you will hit him in the guts without proper lead. That is not an easy thing to do without significant practice. If you have the foresight to concentrate while in a panic and shoot at the ground in front of his head you might make a neck or head shot, feel lucky? If you're using hardcast bullets and miss the spine or brain you're getting hit and knocked silly before you even realize what is going on. It's happened to me so I speak from first hand experience on this.
The heavy hard cast bullets don't disrupt enough tissue to crumple or stall a bear unless a perfect CNS hit is made, Feel lucky? The better choice and I say this after trying so many loads and killing so many bears I feel the research is nearly indisputable, is the common 240 grain hollowpoint. I have used many types but having done research with Hornady to develope the XTP bullet in the 80's I feel the XTP is as good as any bullet or even better. I have seen nearly every bear hit with a Garrett bullet run a long way unless CNS hits were made. However with a 240 hollowpoint the bears will spin like a top and bite at the wound trying to get the burning "bee" out of there hide. This allows many more shots. I have also seen them fall at impact and roll aound on the ground while bawling their heads off allowing more shots. These bullets rarely exit and tear up so much tissue that the bears really show amazing impact effect when compared to the 300 grain hardcast bullets most folks want for hunting. I would not use a 300 grain hard cast bullet for bears as a first choice. Bears are soft and usually small for such a bullet. Those should be used for really big animals with difficult to break bones like elk moose bison and brown bears. Nothing over 400 pounds really needs bullets with that heavy "zip through" construction that a 300 plus grain hard cast construction offers with the exception of wild hogs which have a very thick heavy gristle plate which can prematurely stop softer hollow point bullets.

The reaction to dozens if not over 100 bears has given me these feelings not just a bear here and there with random shot placement. Many of the bears shot while hunting are calm and relaxed, the reaction when they are hit is by a significant margin different then when a bear that is agressive and charging you. When we had bears snared that were hit in the chest with a hardcast bullet they continued to pull on the cable to get at us. When bears were shot with the 220-250 grain hollow points most if not all recoiled back and bit at their wound. They always stopped fighting and realized they had bigger trouble then the human they were attacking. The reaction was much different and very consistant. I for one will always carry 240 grain hollow points in my .44 mag revolver and never worry about having enough stopping power for black bears.

 

[Halger280HVMag]

This is still a Hijak.

Title of the thread.

Go to first new post Is a full house 10mm more powerful than a .357 magnum?

Maybe 350mag can start a new thread about the .45ACP VS 10mm.

 

[350 Mag]

This is still a Hijak.

Title of the thread.


Maybe 350mag can start a new thread about the .45ACP VS 10mm. NOT...GOING HERE AGAIN....It is FINISHED...there is no arguing against a 45 ACP GROUPIE

LOL, I allready acknowledged and apologized to geologist that we hi-jacked his thread....this is how this whole mess got started...

I have definitely had fun with it....

I bet this is one of the BEST 45 ACP vs. 10mm Threads the internet has ever seen...?

As you, Rick, Gatehouse can see....I am like a rabid Pit-bull when it comes to my 10mm ....you can kick me in the face and I will not stop comming...

 

[acrashb]

I am not shouting...just typing boldly so nothing is missed

Yes you are. Bolding, used on large amounts of text, is no different from all caps; it actually reduces the amount of your message that gets read.

45-90 MUCH greater S.D

No, the classic 45-90 load has an SD of .204; a not-unusual 22-250 load is .179 - hardly "MUCH" greater, and again, shouting does not help your case, nor does it persuade me to further deal with you.

Good day.