Is a full house 10mm more powerful than a .357 magnum?
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Careful... you're going to upset our resident 10mm freak by reminding him of that.agilent_one said:
He's probably going to come back wailing about that isn't "normal" .45 ACP that he describes as being "a joke". Even though you're using the stock barrel and the stock chamber that came with the handgun.
Of course, he finds it "normal" to replace the entire barrel in a Glock Model 20 so you can safely shoot those hot loads in it without risking a ka-boom, but it ain't "normal" to simply use a different recoil spring and buffer in a .45.
And Double Tap ammunition isn't "normal" ammunition either - but he doesn't have a problem with that either. Even though he can't get any to use killing paper targets in the first place...
And you're right. If it is some kind of a "race", .45 ACP owners can simply put in a different spring and shock buffer and get numbers that pretty clearly exceed whatever the 10mm can bring to the table. The 10mm, on the other hand, is what it is, and blowing it up trying to get the same numbers out of it you can get with a .45 ACP simply with a different spring, buffer, and prepped brass won't change that any.
Rick said:
Never once did I say that the 10mm could out-do the 45-08 but in your twisted logic you have made this an issue...???
You claim all that is needed for 45-08 is :
those who do can buy a relatively inexpensive spring, buffer, and a handful of cases and have a .45 ACP that is far more ahead of 350 Mag's 10mm than his 10mm is ahead of normal .45 ACP loads.
Are you advising that someone with Stock Glock chambered in 45 ACP go out and shoot 45-08 Armco at 1450 fps
I would NOT want to be around watching that...because anyone but a NEWB would know it would result in a KABOOM.....???I will give you a 1000 bucks if you try this load in a stock Glock 45....(I will supply the recoil spring and shock buffer free of charge)
GREAT ADVICE RICK......
but you probably have some "real world experience" to justify making a false-statement such as this?
Rick,
This is serious...
For saftey's sake...
Please edit your posts advising all you need is recoil spring and buffer..
Anyone interested in 45-08 you should first talk to Gunnar and ask what pistols he reccomends( a few, such as ones with thin frames and Glocks could be dangerous to use for 45-08)
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agilent_one said:
I have never seen any "book data" printed on the 45-08 so not sure if anyone has EVER done the loads with pressure testing equipment or not...
You definitely have to pick a SAFE firearm.
45 Super, which is commercially availble in USA, usually is loaded to 1200 fps with 200 gr loads.
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Well, the measurebating seems to have subsided - perhaps the numbers were too close between the two.python357 said:You guys still going at it ??
And we haven't heard the .45 ACP described as "a joke" lately, either. Curious, that...
I think we're seeing a less than subtle attempt to change the issue to which is "better".
Oddly enough... if all I could legally do was shoot targets at the range like most folks, I'd probably shoot either .22 rimfire or .38 Spl, 9mm, something like that. It doesn't take much energy for a bullet to go through a piece of paper, and cheaper ammunition means more shooting. .22 rimfires will kill pieces of paper just as well as some LoudenBoomer cartridge loaded to the max with rhino rollers.
Of course, who knows... I suppose you could always be charged by a bear while at the range killing paper...
Rick said:
Sorry I don't own a Glock 20?? So now this is gonna be an issue in this thread too??
DoubleTap is not normal???
Just because Mike McNett has a "secretly developed" powder that developes much less pressure than competitor's powder...so therefore it achieves greater fps without being dangerous???
Doubletap 10mm(which I used for reference) is tested in STOCK Glock 20 with factory barrel. It is pressure tested and WITHIN SAAMI specs for C.U.P.
If you care to argue this point you will have to take it up with Mike McNett...???
Get your facts straight before you type because you are in danger of sounding like an IDIOT???
DoubleTap isn't normal but yet it is within SAAMI specs and normal to use in ANY factory firearm?
Within SAAMI spec isn't normal...?
but 45-08(of which there is NO SAAMI spec) is perfectly normal because you say so??? It isn't a WILDCAT and perfectly normal but as of yet I do not see ANY factory loaded 45-08 or "published book data" on reloading it?
More "real world experience" rearing it's ugly head again?
or is it because you have ATC?
or CCW that makes you an EXPERT on SAAMI specs ....I forget?
350 Mag said:He was asking about .357 or 10mm....NOT .45 ACP??
Normal .45 ACP (not .45 Super, .451 Detonics, 45-08 Armco, or 460 Rowland) is NOT an adequate round to dispatch a Black Bear. It may or may not do the job but lacks penetration needed to be considered an adequate bear gun.
.45 ACP belongs in a museum, old cartridge, past its prime and quite easily a joke when compared to 10mm Auto which can run circles around the .45 ACP in any department...Faster, Flatter shooting, more accurate, more energy, more capacity, better penetration etc etc etc.
My original post...
10mm compared to 45 ACP...
faster.......PROVEN
Flatter shooting....PROVEN
More accurate........ not for bullseye ...combat accuracy toss-up
more energy.....PROVEN
more capacity.....PROVEN all beit not much advantage in Canada(1-2 rounds) so TRUE it does on average hold more.
better penetration....PROVEN.
agilent_one said:
Correct you are...
I own a S&W 1006 10mm and a 4506-1 45 ACP.
Both basically the same but the 10mm holds 9 rounds the 45 ACP 8.
Most single stack 10mm hold 1-2 rounds more than single stack 45's. Small but visible advantage.
My 10mm Witness WOULD hold 15+1 but sadly it is limited to 10.
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Rick said:
LOL,
Now your thumbing your nose at the entire shooting community here in Canada that doesn't have an ATC...therefore they should listen to you and only shoot 22 rimfire???
I am glad you have that ATC, cherish it...because the way things are going in this country we will see a day when an ATC will be irrelavant..because we won't even be allowed to own a firearm much less carry one...
350 Mag said:
My para 14-45LTD holds TEN +1 rounds of 45 ACP
So clearly by your definitions, your 10mm is LACKIN
slap: Small, but VISIBLE advantage.
If you think you can unload all of them at a charging bear, which i doubt....
Holy crap...Reloading 101..brass is weak, modern guns are not.
Make brass stronger (like 45-08) and the modern gun can take more pressure. Brass will fail LONG before steel...
make your gun digest a steady diet of strong loads, it wil fail sooner than if you gave it weak loads. Same as for ANY handgun, ANY cartridge..
IF OUR GUN IS NOT UP TO THE TASK OF HIGHER PRESSURE LOADS- don't use them...Just liek if you own a Garand and think about using top end 30-06 loads- DON'T DO IT!!!
If you feel your 45ACp is not up to the task of 45-08, dont do it!!
Before modern pressure testing gear, most data in manuals was worked up by case head expansion testing and "good guesses" It is remarkable to see that much of that data is still in line with modern data, done wiht pressure gear.
I trust that Gunnar (Armco 45-08) knows more than a litle bit about handguns.
Rick started handloading when I was in Boy Scouts.
I started handloading about 15 years before 350 mag ever owned a handgun...
None of us are going to blow up a gun.
IN practical use, a 10mm is just as good a cartridge as a modern, high pressure loaded 45ACP. Period.No more, no less.
Gatehouse said:Holy crap...Reloading 101..brass is weak, modern guns are not.
Make brass stronger (like 45-08) and the modern gun can take more pressure. Brass will fail LONG before steel...
make your gun digest a steady diet of strong loads, it wil fail sooner than if you gave it weak loads. Same as for ANY handgun, ANY cartridge..
IF OUR GUN IS NOT UP TO THE TASK OF HIGHER PRESSURE LOADS- don't use them...Just liek if you own a Garand and think about using top end 30-06 loads- DON'T DO IT!!!
If you feel your 45ACp is not up to the task of 45-08, dont do it!!
Before modern pressure testing gear, most data in manuals was worked up by case head expansion testing and "good guesses" It is remarkable to see that much of that data is still in line with modern data, done wiht pressure gear.
I trust that Gunnar (Armco 45-08) knows more than a litle bit about handguns.
Rick started handloading when I was in Boy Scouts.
I started handloading about 15 years before 350 mag ever owned a handgun...
None of us are going to blow up a gun.
IN practical use, a 10mm is just as good a cartridge as a modern, high pressure loaded 45ACP. Period.No more, no less.
Now your trying to twist this into a pissing match over the 45-08???
Why are you and Rick trying to twist this into 45-08 vs. the 10mm when the whole argument was factory 45 ACP vs factory 10mm Auto?
As said before...I made arrangements well before this thread ever started to get the brass from Gunnar? The 45-08 is SUPERIOR in EVERYWAY to the 10mm.....that does not change the fact that factory 10mm outshines factory 45 ACP?
Gunnar does knowMORE about handguns than Rick, Yourself or I probably EVER will...that is why I simply stated to be safe...you should first contact him and ask him if your firearm would be up to the task for 45-08?
Is this a wrong thing to say?
yes or no
I never said you or Rick didn't know how to handload?
All I said is that certain 45's are NOT suited to the 45-08. They could be perfectly safe for NORMAL 45 ACP factory loads...but are UN-SAFE to use with 45-08.
I am not the ONE advising ANYONE with a 45 drop in a stronger recoil spring, buffer, and load up some 45-08(to 1450 fps) and blast away...?
THIS WOULD BE VERY UNSAFE???
yes or no?
Just wait till the 40 super comes out....45-08 necked down to 10mm...OH BOY....let the DEBATE begin?
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Gatehouse said:It is also proven thst a 22-250 is flatter shooting and has more energy than any of the old "buffalo" cartridges. Which one do you want in your hand when a bear charges? A 22-250 or a 45-90?
Wow...great comparison...?
your comparing a 22 caliber vs a 45?
Tell me where I said to use 22 caliber as Bear Defense? So now this statement really has NO bearing on our current debate?
I have to give Rick credit....at least he broght up viable points and some of them he proved he was at least partly right....?
Your not even making sense to me now....?
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