- Location
- Peace River, Alberta
350 Mag
No problem,
I guess I am highjacking the thread also.
No problem,
I guess I am highjacking the thread also.
Is a full house 10mm more powerful than a .357 magnum?
- Thread starter geologist
- Start date
A black bear hunting guide (JJ Hack) in Washington State was in on over 300 black bear kills with clients that mostly used there duty side arms.
His method of hunting was with dogs that treed the bears.
Once the bears where treed the client would shoot the bears with their handguns. They used from 38 Special/9mm up to hunting rounds like 44mag and 454 Casull for eg...
JJ Hack states that due to seeing the dismal failure to stop/kill the bears with the 38 Special/9mm/357mag/45acp that the least powerful rounds to use for hunting black bears are the 10mm/41mag and not only recommendsed but carried a 44mag with 240gr HP's.
So if these rounds where unable to kill a bear quickly in a hunting situation how could they possibly stop a charge?
In winter when the bears are sleeping I carry my 10mm's most of the time.
I still carry them in the month's that the bears are out playing but usually reserve them for when I am jumping in and out of the truck a lot.
I have now settled on my SRH's in 454 Casull but with that said I just purchased a G29 10mm to go with my G20 10mm...
His method of hunting was with dogs that treed the bears.
Once the bears where treed the client would shoot the bears with their handguns. They used from 38 Special/9mm up to hunting rounds like 44mag and 454 Casull for eg...
JJ Hack states that due to seeing the dismal failure to stop/kill the bears with the 38 Special/9mm/357mag/45acp that the least powerful rounds to use for hunting black bears are the 10mm/41mag and not only recommendsed but carried a 44mag with 240gr HP's.
So if these rounds where unable to kill a bear quickly in a hunting situation how could they possibly stop a charge?
In winter when the bears are sleeping I carry my 10mm's most of the time.
I still carry them in the month's that the bears are out playing but usually reserve them for when I am jumping in and out of the truck a lot.
I have now settled on my SRH's in 454 Casull but with that said I just purchased a G29 10mm to go with my G20 10mm...
I don't own a .45 ACP and doubt I ever will... although I probably will eventually own a 10mm in due course. However, speaking of running circles around the .45 ACP "in any department":350 Mag said:
As you have informed us that the 10mm is more accurate than the .45, just when will we see them starting to replace the .45's being used in the Center Fire Pistol(center fire conventional pistol matches) category for Bullseye competition?
Will I be able to find 10mm ammunition as readily as I can find .45 ACP?
How about the selection of gunsmiths that can build a 10mm pistol that they will guarantee will put 10 rounds inside 3" at 50 yards?
How much variety in 10mm handguns is there out there right now to choose from? Now how about the .45?
The 10mm probably is the much better choice for someone with an ATC. On the other hand, as rgv has pointed out, the CO's seem to kill bears quite dead with 40 S&W's when they have to, and the .45 with modern loads has more thump than the 40.
Bottom line? I think those declaring the .45 ACP belongs in a museum or expecting it to be shoved aside by the 10mm will be long dead, buried, and forgotten themselves before either of those two wishful thoughts ever come to pass.
I carry either my S&W Model 19 or a Browning Hi Power in 40 S&W on my ATC. A 10mm would be preferable, but I don't lose any sleep over it - I'm more likely to get topped by a helicopter I'm in running into a mountain than having my ticket punched by a bear that wasn't stopped by a .357 or .40 where it would have been if I'd been carrying a 10mm.
I have run into numerous geologists, foresters, etc over the years carrying a wide variety of handguns in the back country. Many of them, when shooting at the range, are barely proficient at best.
Which leads me to a real crazy thought: maybe it's better off to be able to shoot fast and accurately with whatever you happen to be carrying, than to have THE ULTIMATE BEAR GUN and presume its' mere presence is some sort of talisman that drives off bears.
Not going to argue this point on this thread anymore...
This thread was not supposed to have anything at all about 45 ACP???
He was asking about 357 Mag vs. 10mm Auto.
and yes..
10mm is KING....
This thread was not supposed to have anything at all about 45 ACP???
He was asking about 357 Mag vs. 10mm Auto.
and yes..
10mm is KING....
Given the relative indefensibility of your previous statement, that's a pretty good idea on your part.350 Mag said:
The .45 will still be much more popular than the 10mm and much more available long after you're dead, buried, and long forgotten.
And it's pretty hard for the 10mm to be "king" with the .44 Magnum as popular as it is with those who actually have and use ATC's... and the 9mm and 40 S&W far more popular with both police and legally armed citizens as a defensive round.
Like it or not, whether wildlife defense, human defense, hunting, or recreational shooting, the relative unpopularity of the 10mm seems to leave it basically be all dressed up and no place to go.
Rick said:
The focus of this thread was on the 357 mag vs. 10mm.
In which case the 10mm is "king".Please re-read the thread.
Or........we can argue that you're .44 magnum doesn't hold a candle to the .50 AE......or the .50 AE doesn't compare to the .500 S&W.......you #### a log and I'll #### a house with shingles debate.....and so on, and so on....
Again, I re-iterate please re-read the original post!
Please do a little "re-reading" yourself.Billy The Kid said:I couldn't agree more and I think it would be better if everyone could stay on topic...
The focus of this thread was on the 357 mag vs. 10mm.
Please re-read the thread.
350 Mag was the one who really brought the .45 ACP into this - in fact, he has posted more about .45 ACP than anyone else in this thread. Along with his mention of other calibers other than the two you are so concerned about as being the focus of the thread. Which at the time, you apparently didn't seem to have any problems with in your newly self designated role as "thread police". So if you're going to annoint/appoint yourself as the thread police, you're just a teeny bit late to start crying "foul" about any mention of a caliber other than 10mm and .357 Mag. Not to mention a little one sided in your enforcement activities... you didn't start exercising your authority until you'd gotten in a "me too" post in support.
As for the off topic comments, 350 Mag expressed some rather indefensible opinions on the .45 ACP. He got called on them. Simple. The fact that his opinions were expressed about a caliber apparently verboten in your mind because it was not mentioned in the subject line does not make those opinions off limits to rebuttal.
I will now return you to your newly assumed duties.
Thank you.
P.S. You too will be long dead, buried, and forgotten before the 10mm ever replaces the .45 ACP in use and popularity with police forces, the military, and the public at large. Build a bridge and get over it.
And no, I still don't own a .45 ACP and probably never will.
Billy The Kid said:I have a 44 mag and love it! But what does that have to do with this thread regarding the 357 mag & 10mm....
OK... Go .357 Mag or go home!
Happy?
Also IMHO without allot of practice, it is pretty much moot what you are armed with.
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Rick said:
PLEASE RICK, DO A LITTLE READING YOURSELF AND YOU WILL SEE IT WAS SAMBR (in post #11) THAT POSTED HE PREFERS TO CARRY HIS .45 OVER THE 10mm or .357
Therefore, I replied...to his post.
Quote:
He was asking about .357 or 10mm....NOT .45 ACP??
Normal .45 ACP (not .45 Super, .451 Detonics, 45-08 Armco, or 460 Rowland) is NOT an adequate round to dispatch a Black Bear. It may or may not do the job but lacks penetration needed to be considered an adequate bear gun.
.45 ACP belongs in a museum, old cartridge, past its prime and quite easily a joke when compared to 10mm Auto which can run circles around the .45 ACP in any department...Faster, Flatter shooting, more accurate, more energy, more capacity, better penetration etc etc etc.
Claim # 1...
10mm is more powerful and will out-penetrate .45 ACP.
All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.
DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"
DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"
As you can see here...10mm out pentrates them ALL.
So in factory(non-wildcats) 10mm is KING of carry-able/conceable auto-loaders.
The 180 gr Gold Dot actually out EXPANDS the much larger 45 and still out-penetrates...numbers don't lie.
10mm is KING!
PROVEN
10mm is more powerful and will out-penetrate .45 ACP.
All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.
DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"
DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"
As you can see here...10mm out pentrates them ALL.
So in factory(non-wildcats) 10mm is KING of carry-able/conceable auto-loaders.
The 180 gr Gold Dot actually out EXPANDS the much larger 45 and still out-penetrates...numbers don't lie.
10mm is KING!
PROVEN
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The .45 is old and belongs in museum....
IT is OLD, turn of the century old. There are more modern better designed cartridges now on the market, the 10mm being one of them.
Never said it still couldn't be used and is not good cartridge...just pointing out there are BETTER choices today.
100 YEARS, 2 WORLD WARS, 2 INDO-CHINE WARS, 2 GULF WARS....YES IT DEFINITELY HAS ITS PLACE IN WAR MUSEUM!!
PROVEN!
IT is OLD, turn of the century old. There are more modern better designed cartridges now on the market, the 10mm being one of them.
Never said it still couldn't be used and is not good cartridge...just pointing out there are BETTER choices today.
100 YEARS, 2 WORLD WARS, 2 INDO-CHINE WARS, 2 GULF WARS....YES IT DEFINITELY HAS ITS PLACE IN WAR MUSEUM!!
PROVEN!
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Capacity....(only VALID point if in USA)
...mags must be pinned or blocked to hold 10 rounds in Canada...
Glock chambers 2 models in 10mm. The Glock 20 holds 15+1.
EAA Witness chambers 2 models. also with 15+1 capacity.
Tanfoglio chambers almost a dozen 10mm models. also with 15+1 capacity.
There is some pistols that have high capacity double-stack 45 ACP.14+1, but 90% of 45 ACP's on the market are single stack 45 ACP.
So if we/are talking about use in the good old USA the 10mm Auto would have a small advantage in the capacity side of the equation when compared to a double stack. (1-3) rounds.
Edited this post so as to NOT "have a corkscrew comparison".
...mags must be pinned or blocked to hold 10 rounds in Canada...
Glock chambers 2 models in 10mm. The Glock 20 holds 15+1.
EAA Witness chambers 2 models. also with 15+1 capacity.
Tanfoglio chambers almost a dozen 10mm models. also with 15+1 capacity.
There is some pistols that have high capacity double-stack 45 ACP.14+1, but 90% of 45 ACP's on the market are single stack 45 ACP.
So if we/are talking about use in the good old USA the 10mm Auto would have a small advantage in the capacity side of the equation when compared to a double stack. (1-3) rounds.
Edited this post so as to NOT "have a corkscrew comparison".
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Personally, I would NOT like to be hit anywhere with the three calibers mentioned (.357, .45 ACP, 10MM). I don't think a felon hit by any of those in a vital area of his body will be discussing the merits of the caliber selection by the police officer or civilian that shot him...
Makes interesting discussions however
Remember Ronald Reagan and Jim Brady almost lost their life after being hit by a lowly .22 rimfire whose bullets didn't even expand from the revolver they were shot from...
Makes interesting discussions however
Remember Ronald Reagan and Jim Brady almost lost their life after being hit by a lowly .22 rimfire whose bullets didn't even expand from the revolver they were shot from...
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10MM IS MORE ACCURATE THAT .45...this could be tough to prove.
This excerpt was taken out of the FBI's criteria for selecting a NEW sidearm after the infamous Miami shoot-out in which several agents lost their lives due to inadequate sidearms fire-power.
They eventually adopted a low velocity 10mm...Then S&W designed the 40S&W and the rest is history.
THE FBI rejected the .45 ACP.
Reasons for Adoption of 10mm
1. Initial Test Results (12/88-1/89) on which decision based:
a. .38 Special +P - 158 gr lead hollow point
success rate meeting 12” minimum: 67.5%
wound volume (cubic inches of tissue disrupted): 2.16
average penetration: 11.76 test barrel average group: 2.992
service weapon average group: 10.863
b. 9mm Subsonic - 147 gr jacketed hollow point
success rate meeting 12” minimum: 67.5%
wound volume (cubic inches of tissue disrupted): 2.82
average penetration: 13.84 test barrel average group: 2.305
service weapon average group: 2.774
c. .45 ACP - 185 gr jacketed hollow point
success rate meeting 12” minimum: 92.5%
wound volume (cubic inches of tissue disrupted): 3.98
average penetration: 19.95 test barrel average group: 2.040
service weapon average group: 4.319
d. 10mm FBI Load - 180 gr jacketed hollow point
success rate meeting 12” minimum: 97.5%
wound volume (cubic inches of tissue disrupted): 4.11
average penetration: 17.90 test barrel average group: 0.893
service weapon average group: 2.550
Common Questions:
1. Since the .45 tested so well, why not adopt it instead of a new gun/caliber??
first, the 10mm tested better, albeit marginally better, than the .45 and we were committed
to adopt the best round. Nevertheless, the 10mm has far superior accuracy, allows for slightly
higher capacity than similar sized .45 weapons, is a new cartridge with room for further improvement
whereas the .45 has been around for 80 years and is as good as it is ever going to be, and the recoil
of the 10mm is softer than that of a comparably sized .45
second, related answer is that even had the FBI adopted the .45, a new weapon would have still been
required. In 1987 we determined that there was no current weapon with all the features in one package
that we desired. Regardless of caliber, the FBI would still have specified and procured a new weapon.
third, the difference between the two is marginal and had the Director said “go with the .45”, we
would have done so gladly. However, based on the results of the testing, we would not recommend
the 9mm for adoption as the FBI issued round.
Not saying this is definitive proof...but according to FBI...10mm was more accurate than the .45.
Because there is no way to really prove this over the internet I will rephrase...
The 10mm is on par with the .45 ACP accuracy. In combat type handguns they would be near equal in terms of combat accuracy.
For Bullseye competitions the 45 ACP might have a slight edge, but the 10mm is FLATTER shooting, so if your exact range is not known the 10mm would probably out-perform the 45.
This excerpt was taken out of the FBI's criteria for selecting a NEW sidearm after the infamous Miami shoot-out in which several agents lost their lives due to inadequate sidearms fire-power.
They eventually adopted a low velocity 10mm...Then S&W designed the 40S&W and the rest is history.
THE FBI rejected the .45 ACP.
Reasons for Adoption of 10mm
1. Initial Test Results (12/88-1/89) on which decision based:
a. .38 Special +P - 158 gr lead hollow point
success rate meeting 12” minimum: 67.5%
wound volume (cubic inches of tissue disrupted): 2.16
average penetration: 11.76 test barrel average group: 2.992
service weapon average group: 10.863
b. 9mm Subsonic - 147 gr jacketed hollow point
success rate meeting 12” minimum: 67.5%
wound volume (cubic inches of tissue disrupted): 2.82
average penetration: 13.84 test barrel average group: 2.305
service weapon average group: 2.774
c. .45 ACP - 185 gr jacketed hollow point
success rate meeting 12” minimum: 92.5%
wound volume (cubic inches of tissue disrupted): 3.98
average penetration: 19.95 test barrel average group: 2.040
service weapon average group: 4.319
d. 10mm FBI Load - 180 gr jacketed hollow point
success rate meeting 12” minimum: 97.5%
wound volume (cubic inches of tissue disrupted): 4.11
average penetration: 17.90 test barrel average group: 0.893
service weapon average group: 2.550
Common Questions:
1. Since the .45 tested so well, why not adopt it instead of a new gun/caliber??
first, the 10mm tested better, albeit marginally better, than the .45 and we were committed
to adopt the best round. Nevertheless, the 10mm has far superior accuracy, allows for slightly
higher capacity than similar sized .45 weapons, is a new cartridge with room for further improvement
whereas the .45 has been around for 80 years and is as good as it is ever going to be, and the recoil
of the 10mm is softer than that of a comparably sized .45
second, related answer is that even had the FBI adopted the .45, a new weapon would have still been
required. In 1987 we determined that there was no current weapon with all the features in one package
that we desired. Regardless of caliber, the FBI would still have specified and procured a new weapon.
third, the difference between the two is marginal and had the Director said “go with the .45”, we
would have done so gladly. However, based on the results of the testing, we would not recommend
the 9mm for adoption as the FBI issued round.
Not saying this is definitive proof...but according to FBI...10mm was more accurate than the .45.
Because there is no way to really prove this over the internet I will rephrase...
The 10mm is on par with the .45 ACP accuracy. In combat type handguns they would be near equal in terms of combat accuracy.
For Bullseye competitions the 45 ACP might have a slight edge, but the 10mm is FLATTER shooting, so if your exact range is not known the 10mm would probably out-perform the 45.
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Just curious, but do you think that posting in super size bold, complete with flashy colors and lots of extra space involved, makes you somehow "righter"? I just find the excessive use of huge text and different colors annoying myself, but of course, feel completely free to post all messages in 72 point purple text if you wish.350 Mag said:
As to "doing a little reading yourself"... go back and read that post of mine again. Do you see it addressed to yourself anywheres? No, it's not. It related to the self appointed thread cop complaining about mention and discussion of calibers that were not mentioned in the original post. Yes Sambr mentioned The Caliber Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken - but you posted one hell of a lot more about that caliber in response to about one line from Sambr and our thread cop didn't have a problem with that. In fact, the thread cop didn't have a problem until somebody challenged you on a few of the opinions you presented. Then he gave a hearty "me too" in support of what you posted and began complaining about discussion of off topic calibers.
Personally, I don't have an issue with comments that veer off topic to include other calibers. But if there's going to be whining to people about mentioning "off topic calibers", then the whining should be consistent and directed to ALL who post about off topic.
I trust that clears things up for you?
Yes, you went to considerable lengths to pooh-pooh his brief mention of The Caliber Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken. Which is fine by me. But "Therefore, I replied... to your post".
No problem with that either? (Aside from the difference of opinion, I mean).
That's fine. But your issue wasn't with the fact that The Caliber Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken was brought up - your post was all about how inadequate and antiquitated that round was in your eyes. Which is why we're where we are right now.
How many black bears have you shot with any flavour of The Caliber Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken? In fact, how many bears have you shot with a 10mm or any other handgun? In your experience, how much penetration did you get with bears while using The Caliber Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken?
As rgv has witnessed and pointed out, conservation officers don't seem to have to beat black bears to death with the butt of their pistols to finish them off after shooting them with 40 S&W, and The Caliber Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken has at least as much power.
My personal opinion is that a person should be more concerned with their ability to use whatever they carry fast and accurately. That's what will make the difference, not the difference between these calibers. But if we're going to talk about "adequate bear guns" and handguns, I sure as hell don't consider the 10mm adequate when there are .44 Magnums and larger available as alternate choices. I wouldn't lose any sleep if I was carrying a 10mm, but if somebody said "You will have a confrontation with a bear today and you have your choice of a 10mm or a 44 Magnum", I would take the 44 Magnum. Every single time.
So here we are again. Where to start...
- For a caliber supposedly past it's prime, The Caliber Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken seems to be seeing improvements in ammunition and performance every year.
- The specialized units in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc that can have pretty much anything they want other than the current issue 9mms seem to be picking The Caliber Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken, not the 10mm. And when they were specing out another handgun for the US military, it was in The Caliber Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken, not the 10mm. So... what inside information is it that you know and that these warriors don't that you can so boldly proclaim that the 10mm is "better in any department"? You should share with them!
- Seeing as this is all about the defensive uses of a handgun, faster and flatter is absolutely irrelevant. Anyone concerned with bullet drop between the end of their muzzle and the bear coming their way at light speed has some real issues with priorities. If we're talking handgun hunting, then trajectory might indeed be an issue - but in that case I don't think anything mentioned this far is particularly optimal anyways.
- You can say the 10mm is more accurate all day and that simply doesn't make it so. I don't see any Bullseye or PPC shooters abandoning The Caliber Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken in favour of the 10mm. In fact just finding a gunsmith willing to tune a 10mm to that same level of accuracy is a pretty good trick. Go ahead and name a couple...
- More energy? Sure.
- More capacity? 10 round magazines are the law in Canada, last time I looked, and that option is certainly available in The Caliber Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken. You're not telling us you have unpinned magazines, are you? Because that's the only way you'd manage to squeeze out a few extra rounds over the other.
Of course, if we're now down to #5 or #6 or whatever, there's a pretty good chance we're now rolling around playing with the bear - or have been for a while now. If we press our autoloader against our friend's hide while pulling the trigger and take it out of battery, will the one caliber fire where the other won't? Hmmmm.... maybe we should be discussing the .357 or another revolver...
One may well be a better choice than the other (although if I had to drop in an aftermarket barrel so I didn't chance blowing up my gun with effective loads, I might as well call Prince George and get the parts at a fraction of a price to shoot the .45-08 Armco which is clearly superior to 10mm if we're worried about "King").
But your dismissal of The Caliber Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken is fairly laughable.
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Being a little selective in our comparisons, aren't we? Or is it that you only want to compare bullet weights that perform the best in 10mm. Why no emphasis on the 230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95", if this is supposed to be all about penetration? Was the combination of penetration and expansion to close to 10mm performance for comfort?350 Mag said:
However, when bears start appearing wearing 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirts, I'll keep this in mind.
Really? Where's the figures on .44 Magnum?
I guess that all depends. I do carry CCW in the US by the way, so before we go further with THAT discussion, could you give me a little context with how often you carry a concealed handgun? Because it's easy to talk about carrying until you actually do it and start realizing that carrying a handgun wherever you go is a little more complex than just talking about it. Tank tops and shorts weather is particularly tricky, as just one example.
And while in Canada, I do carry on an ATC while working out in the bush. Comments about concealed carry aren't relevant to ATC carry, because of course if you look at your permit, it says you CAN'T conceal your handgun. And with an exterior holster, I can just as easily carry a Desert Eagle in a REAL stopper - that is, if I'm worried about what is "KING".
Actually, the saying is "Figures don't lie, but liars figure". Let's have a look at those carefully selected results of yours.
Hmmm... for the .45 ACP, this seems to be about the best round for penetration and performance (even though you didn't highlight it for some curious reason or other):
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"
Okay, what 10mm round do you have listed that expands to .95" or bigger and still out-penetrates? Here's one:
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
Oops... Houston, we have a problem: it expands .07" greater... but penetrates an inch less. But wait! Do we have a winner?
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
Okay then... if we use a bullet that is 50 grains lighter, we can actually find a 10mm round that out-expands the .45 ACP by an incredible one hundredth of an inch. But sadly, no, we still don't have a winner - the 50 grain lighter bullet (does bullet weight ever factor into effectiveness?) penetrates no further than the .45 ACP.
The bottom line seems to be that, unless you have some other data squirrelled away that you haven't shared with us yet, your comment that the 10mm can out expand AND out penetrate .45 ACP at the same time simply isn't true.
By the way, I know this is gonna hurt, but running those loads through John "Pondoro" Taylor's "Knock Out Value" calculations, the .45 ACP scores 14.93 while the 10mm scores 13.37. But what would Taylor know? He only made a career of hunting and dealing with different game, and learning what mattered in stopping dangerous animals and what didn't.
Ummm... no, not quite. Seem to be a few inconsistencies here and there.
Furthermore, for the price of the parts to shoot the .45-08 Armco in a stock .45 from Gunner up in Prince George, that's a lot cheaper than putting a new barrel in a Glock so I can fire those hot 10mm's without risking blowing it up. And I'll take 200 grain .45 caliber bullets at 1450 fps or better over anything that 10mm has to offer, any day that a handgun is what stands between me and a bear.
