Is a full house 10mm more powerful than a .357 magnum?

[Rick]

Capacity....

Glock chambers 2 models in 10mm. The Glock 20 holds 15+1.
EAA Witness chambers 2 models. also with 15+1 capacity.
Tanfoglio chambers almost a dozen 10mm models. also with 15+1 capacity

The average single stack .45 capacity is 7 or 8 rounds.

First question: Why in the world would you compare double stack 10mm handguns with single stack .45's - rather than with the double stack .45's out there - and expect anyone to believe you're attempting an honest comparison? Your comparisons are so twisted up they look like corkscrews!

Are we to believe you simply don't know that there are LOTS of double stack .45's out there?

Second, if you have all those magazines that are over 10 rounds capacity here in Canada (you know, where those of us who work in the bush use our ATC's to carry for protection), then you better not be publicly posting about it here.

In Canada, extended magazines, high capacity designs, etc are meaningless. The limit is what the law says we can have - and either caliber offers lots of models which will hold the legal limit plus the one in the chamber.

 

[Gatehouse]

350 MAG HAS BEEN OWNED




I'm gonna go load up some 45-08 ammo now...

 

[350 Mag]

350 MAG HAS BEEN OWNED




I'm gonna go load up some 45-08 ammo now...

I have 45-08 in the works too....

 

[350 Mag]

Furthermore, for the price of the parts to shoot the .45-08 Armco in a stock .45 from Gunner up in Prince George, that's a lot cheaper than putting a new barrel in a Glock so I can fire those hot 10mm's without risking blowing it up. And I'll take 200 grain .45 caliber bullets at 1450 fps or better over anything that 10mm has to offer, any day that a handgun is what stands between me and a bear.[/QUOTE]

Now, now...I already stated that the .45 wildcats cannot be used...now whos changing the rules???

 

[Gatehouse]

F
Now, now...I already stated that the .45 wildcats cannot be used...now whos changing the rules???

Reality changed the rules....

 

[350 Mag]

I better stop while I am ahead...

Tell me genius...

List off the States in the U.S.A that allow 45 ACP for big game hunting?

Then list off the States in the U.S.A that allow 10mm Auto for big game hunting.

Most require 500+ ft lbs. of energy retained at 50 or 100 yards...

SO SORRY but your anemic .45 ACP barely has that at the muzzle let alone 50 yards.

 

[Gatehouse]

I better stop while I am ahead...

Tell me genius...

List off the States in the U.S.A that allow 45 ACP for hunting big game hunting?

Then list off the States in the U.S.A that allow 10mm Auto for big game hunting.

I think you will find out something very interesting.

I think you will find that you place too much faith in the intelligence of beaurocrats. For instance,in BC, it is legal to hunt grizzly bears with a 22 Hornet, but illegal to shoot a bison with a 7mm Remington magnum and a 160gr X bullet...



Besides, if I was out hunting, I'd probably take something more appropriate, like a rifle. Or in a handgun, I'd use a 45 Colt or 454 or something like that.

You can say the 10mm beats the 45ACP forever- It still doesn't change the fact that neither one of them is a "great" choice to stop a big, charging bear, and more important inn that circumstance is your ability to shoot well.

For that matter, you can argue about which is best between the 270 and the 30-06, but that doesn't change the fact that proper shot placement is the most important thing, followed by bullet performance..and that the 338 Remington Ultra Magnum outclasses them both, anyway.

 

[Sosa]

10mm over .357 and 45-08 WTF Cool I want one

 

[350 Mag]

I think you will find that you place too much faith in the intelligence of beaurocrats. For instance,in BC, it is legal to hunt grizzly bears with a 22 Hornet, but illegal to shoot a bison with a 7mm Remington magnum and a 160gr X bullet...

Hey, just look at what the bearucrats in Quebec are doing right now...

Using McNett's Double Tap numbers.

The 230 gr 45 ACP load has around 520 ft lbs of muzzle energy.

The 200 gr 10mm load has around 693 ft lbs of muzzle energy.


Once again 10mm is KING!

 

[350 Mag]

45-08 WTF Cool I want one

It is nothing new...

Lots of wildcats based on the .45 have been around for many years.

The 45-08 is about the same as the .451 Detonics released in early 80's.

Gunnar just does a better job with his brass and newer powders have made the round more efficient.

The round will put greater wear and tear on your firearm as well...kinda like shooting FULL power 10mm.

I have some 45-08 brass on the way too, but I am not gonna throw away my 10mm...because...

10mm is still KING!

 

[350 Mag]

Second, if you have all those magazines that are over 10 rounds capacity here in Canada (you know, where those of us who work in the bush use our ATC's to carry for protection), then you better not be publicly posting about it here.

No, I don't have any high capacity mags.

I was quoting the manufacturers stats for comparison.

Lets not make wild assumptions(AZZ---U---ME) here...just corkscrew comparisons please.

 

[Rick]

Now, now...I already stated that the .45 wildcats cannot be used...now whos changing the rules???

Oh... "YOU" make the rules, do you? What color is the sky in your world, anyways?

I'm not paying a lot of attention to your "rules" - anyone who dreams up "rules" where they compare a double stack 10mm to a single stack .45 ACP (when there's lots of double stack .45's out there), and then declares they have just proven the 10mm has more capacity, isn't being very honest.

Furthermore, a wildcat has a non standard chamber. As far as I know, the .45-08 is fired in a standard .45 ACP chamber, correct?

If a heavier recoil spring and shock buffer makes it a "wildcat", then all those Glock 10mm's that have had an aftermarket barrel installed to eliminate the risk of blowing the pistol up are wildcats as well. Surprised you're not complaining about those Glock 10mm's...

 

[Rick]

The 230 gr 45 ACP load has around 520 ft lbs of muzzle energy.

The 200 gr 10mm load has around 693 ft lbs of muzzle energy.

Once again 10mm is KING!

Unless you use a different formula for evaluating the cartridges of course. Such as Taylor's Knock Out Values. In that case, the 10mm is the weak sister, and the .45 ACP is "KING".

And Taylor made his living hunting dangerous game - not shooting gelatine and churning out ballistics sheets.

 

[johnson]

Well what are the figures on 10mm FMJ as well as .357 FMJ and .45 FMJ in terms of penetration?

Which one will go the furthest?

180, 200, 230 Grain????

Also, why can you never find 220-230 grain 10mm in JHP?

 

[350 Mag]

Unless you use a different formula for evaluating the cartridges of course. Such as Taylor's Knock Out Values. In that case, the 10mm is the weak sister, and the .45 ACP is "KING".

And Taylor made his living hunting dangerous game - not shooting gelatine and churning out ballistics sheets.

Rick neither one of us is going to prove his point but lets keep exploring this until......I win with the last word...


Can you please provide some actual evidence/data Taylor used?


Gelatin has long been used as a testing medium to simulate bullet performance?

As I allready stated back on page 2 of this post...

Normal .45 ACP (not .45 Super, .451 Detonics, 45-08 Armco, or 460 Rowland) is NOT an adequate round to dispatch a Black Bear. It may or may not do the job but lacks penetration needed to be considered an adequate bear gun.

As you can see I have allready acknowlegded that these rounds are indeed more effective...but then again the argument was for 45 ACP(not wildcat).
45-08, 45 super, 460 Rowland do not use 45 ACP brass....therefore they are NOT 45 ACP!


My view on why I like the 10mm and it is KING in my books when compared to .45 ACP...

Lets talk about WHY the 10mm is here?

The FBI desired a service pistol with more "punch" they tested everything available to them....they chose(NOT ME) the 10mm Auto. It tested better than the 45 ACP in every category.

Lets go back a little further...

Why was the 10mm Auto even developed?

A not so well known 45 ACP guru named Jeff Cooper(you may have heard of him?)

quote:


Cooper was also a .45 ACP devotee but conceded that it wasn't the end-all of defensive pistol cartridges. "The .45 ACP cartridge has almost enough power," he wrote. "No conceivable cartridge can have 'enough' for all conceivable circumstances." This belief led him to help develop the Bren Ten pistol, a semiauto that fires the potent 10mm Auto cartridge.

end quote


What makes the 10mm more versatile.

The 10mm is flatter shooting and has more down-range energy thump than the .45acp. From a 5" barrel the 10mm is easily a hundred yard cartridge.




The range of available bullet-weights loaded in factory 10mm ammo is the WIDEST of any "service" cartridge chambered in an autoloader of reasonable size and weight. Factory 10mm loads run: 135gns, 150gns, 155gns, 165gns, 170gns, 175gns, 180gns, 190gns, 200gns, 210gns, 215gns 220gns. For whatever you need a 10mm to do, there's a bullet-weight and type available to do it, with a sufficient variation in power behind the slug to suit just about everybody's need or preference.(not all available in Canada sadly unless you handload)


10mm is KING...(FBI and Jeff COOPER agree)

 

[350 Mag]

Well what are the figures on 10mm FMJ as well as .357 FMJ and .45 FMJ in terms of penetration?

Which one will go the furthest?

180, 200, 230 Grain????

Also, why can you never find 220-230 grain 10mm in JHP?

This would be a toss-up between the 357 and the 10mm Auto they would be very close....

The .45 ACP would be about 4-5 inchs behind.

 

[Rick]

Well what are the figures on 10mm FMJ as well as .357 FMJ and .45 FMJ in terms of penetration?

Which one will go the furthest?

180, 200, 230 Grain????

Well there's a few things here.

First of all, penetration isn't the be all-end all to evaluating performance. Nor is energy, momentum, Taylor Knock Out Values, final diameter of the expanded bullet, or any other physical measurement you want to apply. Measuring things sells things, so we do a lot of it. If we ever WERE able to come up with a reliable system of measurement that uniformly corresponded to effectiveness, it would probably be an extremely complex blend of many factors.

Second, penetration through what? A nice uniform block of ballistic gelatin? Or a bunch of heavy hair and hide, then some fat, then some meat, then some bone, maybe some more meat and then more bone, then some hollow organs, maybe then some solid organs, etc, etc?

Bullet manufacturers have a pretty difficult task when you think about it. They have to design bullets that will do what a variety of different people want them to do, at a wide range of velocities. They have to expand over the widest range of velocities imaginable. AND while doing that, they have to penetrate as much as possible over that range of velocities. AND they have to be accurate out of a wide range of firearms while doing all of the above.

If it was all about penetration, bullets wouldn't begin to look like what we are using today. If I wanted a penetrator round in the three calibers you mention, I would work with the caliber having the smallest diameter - the .357. Sectional density is in its' favour, and with a smaller frontal area and something like the KTW rounds (illegal in Canada, I believe) which were precisely designed to resist expansion and penetrate, it would probably win by a fraction - if you really cared. There's a reason tanks use discarding sabot rounds to fire those skinny darts to penetrate armour, and there's a reason the 6.5x55 is an effective game round far out of proportion to its' bullet weight and muzzle velocity.

Also, why can you never find 220-230 grain 10mm in JHP?

Probably because those bullet weights don't provide the most impressive ballistic charts to the buying public. There are a LOT of people out there with little actual field experience, but who pour over ballistic charts as though they were the tablets Moses brought down from the mount.

If you follow a lot of people who actually do a LOT of big game hunting with conventional handgun calibers, most tend to eventually gravitate to bullets weights that most would consider heavier than normal for that caliber. The numbers don't look that impressive, but obviously the results are because the companies selling heavy bullets in those calibers tend to do a brisk business with those actually out in the field (not sitting at home reading yet another ballistics chart). And more often than not, the bullets aren't some glitzy hollow point, but a disgustingly low-tech looking hard cast semiwadcutter.

It's almost as though Elmer Keith and all those other guys who shot tons of game with handguns back in the 1940's - 1980's actually knew what they were talking about...

I would expect a 210-215 grain bullet in a 10mm to perform very well indeed, even if the numbers did look boringly pedestrian.

 

[Rick]

Rick neither one of us is going to prove his point but lets keep exploring this until......I win with the last word

I don't write this stuff for you. As a fanboy of the 10mm, nothing is ever going to change your mind. And with a whole year of handgun shooting experience behind you now, you've clearly got a grip on everything, right?

No, I write this stuff so that other people reading this thread looking for information or pointers on where to inquire further see something other than your heavily skewed arguments.

Can you please provide some actual evidence/data Taylor used?

Ummmm... developed during 30 years as a professional hunter in Africa, shooting all manner of dangerous game? An acknowledged expert on dangerous game hunting and calibers used in hunting/stopping dangerous game? Unfortunately, he was relatively inexperienced at shooting gelatin blocks in a laboratory setting.

Taylor's name doesn't ring a bell with you? I'm surprised that an expert on what is "king" at stopping dangerous game such as yourself doesn't know anything of John Taylor, his books, his conclusions on what factors contribute to success in the field, etc.

Gelatin has long been used as a testing medium to simulate bullet performance?

Yup. By people who lack 30 years experience evaluating performance in real life shooting dangerous game... And it provides really cool pictures that are absolutely GREAT for marketing purposes.

How many head of dangerous game has Mike McNett shot, again? And how many were actually charging him?

He makes excellent ammunition at reasonable prices, but for evaluating what actually works I'll take real life experience and results over data derived from shooting gelatin any day of the week. Your milage, of course, may vary.

As I allready stated back on page 2 of this post...

Normal .45 ACP (not .45 Super, .451 Detonics, 45-08 Armco, or 460 Rowland) is NOT an adequate round to dispatch a Black Bear. It may or may not do the job but lacks penetration needed to be considered an adequate bear gun.

Thank you for your opinion. I really don't care what "rules" you want to make up based on your one year of handgunning experience. Particularly when at least half of your effort is directed towards skewing everything in favour of the 10mm. Yes, alright already, we get the fact you're a 10mm fanboy - you've made that clear enough over recent months.

Furthermore, I really don't care whether you want to cry that something like a 45-08 Armco isn't "normal". It's just a different spring, a buffer, and brass in a standard .45 ACP. Big deal. The Double Tap ammo that you love so well (BTW, have you actually found any to shoot yet?) is not "normal" ammunition. Having to put an after market barrel in a Glock (as you advised earlier) so you can shoot it without risking a ka-boom is not "normal" either. Your skewed rules so your beloved 10mm can be made to appear the only game in town do not interest me in the slightest. Therefore, I choose to ignore them.

We know you've never shot a bear with ANY handgun. As rgv and others have stated here and witnessed, CO's don't seem to have a problem killing black bears with 40 S&W's when they have to. And a .45 ACP has more on tap than the 40 S&W.

So... on the one hand we have your opinion - based on no personal experience whatsoever - that the .45 ACP is inadequate. And then, in real life, we have CO's and cops shooting bears with 40 S&W and it seems quite adequate indeed.

So what should we believe? The guy with one year of handgunning experience who has never actually shot a bear with a handgun of any type? Or the field experience coming from CO's and others who are actually killing black bears with handguns giving a little less thump than a .45 ACP?

I'll go with the guys with real field experience, thanks. Your milage, again, may vary...

My view on why I like the 10mm and it is KING in my books when compared to .45 ACP...

I'm happy you've found your one true love in life. Nobody is telling you that you can't or shouldn't use your 10mm for range sessions. But your dismissal of other calibers - particularly when you lack field experience with ANY of them - is ridiculous.

A not so well known 45 ACP guru named Jeff Cooper(you may have heard of him?)

Two questions:
How many gunfights using a handgun was Jeff Cooper actually physically a participant in to base his opinions on?
How many bears did Cooper shoot with handguns?

Jim Cirillo won well over a dozen gunfights using a paltry .38 Special that Cooper sneered at. Cirillo didn't seem to cry about the .38 Special and he had more actual gunfighting experience than Cooper ever dreamed of having. Cooper also thought the 9mm was woefully inadequate as well. Oddly enough, police and militaries have been using the 9mm quite successfully for years in gunfights. And still are. Cooper liked to cherry pick instances where somebody was not stopped with a 9mm or .38 Spl - and the fact the hit was inadequate or the ammunition was poor never got mentioned. But he sure as hell had a talent for glossing over instances where a .45 ACP didn't perform. It's like they never happened...

You're a 10mm fanboy. Cooper was a .45 ACP fanboy. I'm glad for both of you. But narrow minded opinions absent personal real-life experience does not take priority over the experiences of those who DO have a lot of field experience in my book.

The 10mm is flatter shooting and has more down-range energy thump than the .45acp. From a 5" barrel the 10mm is easily a hundred yard cartridge.

That's good stuff to know for anyone who needs to calculate bullet drop while shooting at a charging bear a 100 yards away while using a handgun!

 

[Rick]

How does the power level of a GLOCK 10mm pistol compare to my 4" .357 magnum revolver?

How about bullet selection for 10mm, anything available for black bear sized animals? (Relax, I have an ATC ).

I'm lookiing for a reason to buy a new handgun

To get back on topic here, if Geologist is still following this...

For practical purposes - unless you think a slight difference in numbers describing penetration, expansion, energy, etc make a noticeable difference in the real world - they're generally in the same ballpark. There are lots of guys down in the States still whacking hogs and black black bears with .357's and having great success. Most are using hard cast LFN style bullets, as have a lot of handgun hunters in any caliber. As they haven't abandoned the hard cast bullets for the various hollowpoint offerings, I gather field experience is showing them something the really cool pictures of expanded hollow points doesn't show.

I have been carrying a .357 and 40 S&W on my ATC, and have always thought it was adequate enough. But after my last trip up north to work, I'm thinking of something in the flavour of 10mm, .45-08, or .44 Magnum might be more appropriate (and most of all you're not the only one who needs excuses for a new handgun). I have small hands and shoot the N frames very poorly, so I'm thinking something in the autoloader persuasion might be in order.

My personal opinion is that you're just with your .357. However, if you're looking for an excuse to buy a gun, then go look at the ballistics charts, wave them at your wife and tell her how you're going to get eaten if you don't heavy up, and then go fondle the handguns at your nearest dealer and then pick one from the litter to take home.

There's a more than adequate supply of 10mm loads that will do on black bears quite nicely. I wouldn't be surprised if you can't find it where you live, but there's also lots of reloading data available. Buy an LFN style bullet mould, make up or buy some hard alloy, and you're in business. All the rhino rollers you want.

 

[350 Mag]

Just for the record...Rick.

1) How many bears have you shot?


2) How many with a handgun?


3) How many with a .45 ACP?


4) How many with a 10mm?


5) How many with 40 S&W?




If you answer "none" to number 2,3,4,or 5 please explain how "your opinion" is more valid than mine or anyone elses?