Is a Win.94 In .357 Good for Bear Protection?
- Thread starter sksnujack
- Start date
Better to have the .357 in hand than nothing.I'd have given a hundred bucks for a pointy stick rather than the flyrod i was poking a black bear with to keep it away.I got lucky at the last moment some other people showed up and it felt outnumbered and left or i would have gone for a swim in the peace river.
coyotebc said:
Holy jumpings, what a terrible attitude. Who needs sensible logic in these threads anyway??
90% of all our threads are about "what-if". Next you'll be telling us to get a real life and stop spending so much time on the internet.
- Location
- South Cariboo, BC
One thing you may have going for you is that it sounds like you may be quite familiar with the lever gun and therefore have a chance at making a decent shot in a stressfull situation.
Now while you're thinking about it take $200 and follow Foxer's advice. Fire at a target with your 357, then put a 12 guage slug through it. Which size hole do you want to be leaking blood out of a killing machine with you in it's sights.
Now while you're thinking about it take $200 and follow Foxer's advice. Fire at a target with your 357, then put a 12 guage slug through it. Which size hole do you want to be leaking blood out of a killing machine with you in it's sights.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Interesting advice, but lets consider a few points before we consider a firearm .
While it is admittedly unlikely that you will run into an aggressive or predatory bear, they do exist, and the more time you spend in bear country, the more time you are exposed to the likelihood of encountering one. If you are walking along a trail in a non-hunting scenario, and see the bear, you will stop and wait to see what he does. At this point in time, what happens next is up to the bear. He might wander away, or he might not, and if he chooses not to wander away, you must be prepared to defend yourself against an aggressive behavior on his part. The whys and wherefores can get pretty complex, and it is certainly in the individuals best interest to learn a bit about bear behavior prior to travelling in bear country. To not do so may result in you being ill equipped to handle a bear encounter, or it could result in you killing a bear unnecessarily.
A possibility to consider is that you shoot the bear and it runs off wounded - and although this resolves your immediate problem, it creates a whole bunch of new ones. Should this happen, and you are not a hunter, the best thing you can do is to leave the area as quickly as possible, and report the incident to a Conservation Officer, or the RCMP. If you are a hunter, and you believe the conditions are prudent for you to do so, a quick follow up may be in order, but if this does not prove fruitful within a short time, you too should leave the area and return with help.
We could argue all day and late into the night about what constitutes a proper bear gun. The first thing we need to recognize in the context of this thread is that a .357 carbine is totally inappropriate. So if the .357 isn't good what is? The most often heard advise is to "Git yerself a 12 gauge pump!" I don't have a big problem with that, and on occasion carry one myself, but there are disadvantages which should be addressed. The first issue is that some 12 gauge slug loads can kick pretty fiercely. In order to defend yourself with a firearm, you must shoot it enough to become confident of you ability to use it, and if you are not a shooter you might find some of these loads rather intimidating. The 12 gauge slug itself does not penetrate particularly well, although it will certainly overwhelm a black bear - assuming that is the critter in your sights. A problem some folks have with pump action guns is that they might short stroke the actions under stress. While you can train yourself to manage the gun properly, this is not a problem if you were to choose a semi-automatic.
On the otherhand, you seem to be familiar with lever action rifles, and there are lever guns available in calibers which are suitable for stopping bears. A medium powered cartridge firing a well constructed heavy for caliber bullet at a moderate velocity will out penetrate a 12 gauge slug, and will kill a bear far more convincingly than a pistol cartridge.
While it is admittedly unlikely that you will run into an aggressive or predatory bear, they do exist, and the more time you spend in bear country, the more time you are exposed to the likelihood of encountering one. If you are walking along a trail in a non-hunting scenario, and see the bear, you will stop and wait to see what he does. At this point in time, what happens next is up to the bear. He might wander away, or he might not, and if he chooses not to wander away, you must be prepared to defend yourself against an aggressive behavior on his part. The whys and wherefores can get pretty complex, and it is certainly in the individuals best interest to learn a bit about bear behavior prior to travelling in bear country. To not do so may result in you being ill equipped to handle a bear encounter, or it could result in you killing a bear unnecessarily.
A possibility to consider is that you shoot the bear and it runs off wounded - and although this resolves your immediate problem, it creates a whole bunch of new ones. Should this happen, and you are not a hunter, the best thing you can do is to leave the area as quickly as possible, and report the incident to a Conservation Officer, or the RCMP. If you are a hunter, and you believe the conditions are prudent for you to do so, a quick follow up may be in order, but if this does not prove fruitful within a short time, you too should leave the area and return with help.
We could argue all day and late into the night about what constitutes a proper bear gun. The first thing we need to recognize in the context of this thread is that a .357 carbine is totally inappropriate. So if the .357 isn't good what is? The most often heard advise is to "Git yerself a 12 gauge pump!" I don't have a big problem with that, and on occasion carry one myself, but there are disadvantages which should be addressed. The first issue is that some 12 gauge slug loads can kick pretty fiercely. In order to defend yourself with a firearm, you must shoot it enough to become confident of you ability to use it, and if you are not a shooter you might find some of these loads rather intimidating. The 12 gauge slug itself does not penetrate particularly well, although it will certainly overwhelm a black bear - assuming that is the critter in your sights. A problem some folks have with pump action guns is that they might short stroke the actions under stress. While you can train yourself to manage the gun properly, this is not a problem if you were to choose a semi-automatic.
On the otherhand, you seem to be familiar with lever action rifles, and there are lever guns available in calibers which are suitable for stopping bears. A medium powered cartridge firing a well constructed heavy for caliber bullet at a moderate velocity will out penetrate a 12 gauge slug, and will kill a bear far more convincingly than a pistol cartridge.
.357MAG is probably just adequate, and as all have said, much better than nothing.
Head shot, however: The last black bear that my buddy shot (hunting, that is), turned out to have a really well-healed over .44cal slug stuck in the front of its skull, when the carcass was skinned out. Years' old wound, by the looks of it (I've seen pics, and I used to be a Veterinary Tech).
Bear skulls are VERY thick - Much thicker than mine!
Go buy yerself a bubba'd Lee Enfield for a $100, because a .30 cal rifle round is going to be MUCH better protection than a 12 GA slug, and easier to control.
Just my thoughts - Have a super day!
Neal
Head shot, however: The last black bear that my buddy shot (hunting, that is), turned out to have a really well-healed over .44cal slug stuck in the front of its skull, when the carcass was skinned out. Years' old wound, by the looks of it (I've seen pics, and I used to be a Veterinary Tech).
Bear skulls are VERY thick - Much thicker than mine!
Go buy yerself a bubba'd Lee Enfield for a $100, because a .30 cal rifle round is going to be MUCH better protection than a 12 GA slug, and easier to control.
Just my thoughts - Have a super day!
Neal
Personally, I would question the choice of rifle on reliability issues before I would question the caliber. Post 64 Winchester pistol caliber carbines are not quality firearms.
Virtually everyone has a horror story about 1 or more firearms that they have owned. He's my lever horror story;
In '94 I was looking for a lever in .357 because I was doing alot of .357 shooting out of my M66 and wanted a cheap and easy round that I could reload in abundance. After looking around for about 6-8 months I couldn't find one, I even phoned Winchester! The nice lady said that they didn't have enough calls to start manufacturing them again. Remember this was before Cowboy Action got bigger.
I finally gave up on .357 and found a Winchester Wrangler in .44 Magnum. Shades of John Wayne that large loop lever was kewl! Little did I realize that with 2 years, I'd start shooting Cowboy Action. I did lots of testing and came up 7.2 grains of Unique pushing a 240 grain LSWC bullet as an accurate target load.
Within the first 20 rds down range, the pot metal feed ramp broke. Off for warranty work! Eight months later I get the rifle back. After every 50 rds the rear sight elevator would fall off. So we have to install a Williams rear sight! Shooting again after every 50 rds the screws in the receiver would work loose. Locktite!! After 1,500 rds the tubular magazine spring gave up the ghost! Wolfe Gunsprings to the rescue. After this the Lever Link broke, 3 months and 5 nasty letters later, Winchester told me they would sell me the part but without warranty! They wanted me to send the gun to the warranty centre again!
That was the last straw, I found a sucker to buy the Winchester and bought a Marlin M1894S, after 8,000 rds through it, it broke a firing pin. I love the quality Marlin builds in.
P.S. My Wrangler was one of 4 Wranglers in town with the same problems.
Virtually everyone has a horror story about 1 or more firearms that they have owned. He's my lever horror story;
In '94 I was looking for a lever in .357 because I was doing alot of .357 shooting out of my M66 and wanted a cheap and easy round that I could reload in abundance. After looking around for about 6-8 months I couldn't find one, I even phoned Winchester! The nice lady said that they didn't have enough calls to start manufacturing them again. Remember this was before Cowboy Action got bigger.
I finally gave up on .357 and found a Winchester Wrangler in .44 Magnum. Shades of John Wayne that large loop lever was kewl! Little did I realize that with 2 years, I'd start shooting Cowboy Action. I did lots of testing and came up 7.2 grains of Unique pushing a 240 grain LSWC bullet as an accurate target load.
Within the first 20 rds down range, the pot metal feed ramp broke. Off for warranty work! Eight months later I get the rifle back. After every 50 rds the rear sight elevator would fall off. So we have to install a Williams rear sight! Shooting again after every 50 rds the screws in the receiver would work loose. Locktite!! After 1,500 rds the tubular magazine spring gave up the ghost! Wolfe Gunsprings to the rescue. After this the Lever Link broke, 3 months and 5 nasty letters later, Winchester told me they would sell me the part but without warranty! They wanted me to send the gun to the warranty centre again!
That was the last straw, I found a sucker to buy the Winchester and bought a Marlin M1894S, after 8,000 rds through it, it broke a firing pin. I love the quality Marlin builds in.
P.S. My Wrangler was one of 4 Wranglers in town with the same problems.
As stated somewhere above, a nice pump like a Remmy 870 with a shorter barrel (20" or less) and a plain (ie no pistol grip!) stock that is easy to operate and bring into action quickly, loaded up with slugs (forget buckshot!) is not a bad choice. Like with any gun you choose, yuo will need to practice firing it under simulated duress so as not to short stroke, etc. Same problem will exist with lever guns though. Semis avoid this, but I'm on man who won't be trusting his life to a jamm-o-matic. Big game hunters who routine stake their life on a well working gun, tend to invariably choose either a CRF rifle like a Mauser, or a classic double-rifle IF their pockets are deep enough.
For black bear, you can paractically kill one with a pea shooter. Well, not really, but you don't need an african safari caliber either. Grizzly is a whole 'nuther matter. They are generally twice as big, or bigger, than the average black bear, are far more agressive, and are not easily dissuaded once they decide to attack.
Shot placement is very important. Aim for the head, or if far enough away, a front shoulder which will buy you time for a coup-de-gras shot - IF you're lucky and a good shot. Use the heaviest hardest round you can get. You want deep penetration and hope to hit vitals. Expanding rounds might not go deep enough to get it done.
FMJ's or hard cast lead (like water quenched linotype solids), or even better, brass solids are all good bets.
I think for a rifle that I was using specifically for bear medicine, I would probably look for a .30 in a magnum and up, or a .35 in a non-magnum and up. I would NOT rely on a pistol cartridge unless it was something spicy like .454 Casul or something. Even .44 mag is iffy.
In a shotgun, think 12 gauge lead slugs and ALOT of practice.
That's my $.02
For black bear, you can paractically kill one with a pea shooter. Well, not really, but you don't need an african safari caliber either. Grizzly is a whole 'nuther matter. They are generally twice as big, or bigger, than the average black bear, are far more agressive, and are not easily dissuaded once they decide to attack.
Shot placement is very important. Aim for the head, or if far enough away, a front shoulder which will buy you time for a coup-de-gras shot - IF you're lucky and a good shot. Use the heaviest hardest round you can get. You want deep penetration and hope to hit vitals. Expanding rounds might not go deep enough to get it done.
FMJ's or hard cast lead (like water quenched linotype solids), or even better, brass solids are all good bets.
I think for a rifle that I was using specifically for bear medicine, I would probably look for a .30 in a magnum and up, or a .35 in a non-magnum and up. I would NOT rely on a pistol cartridge unless it was something spicy like .454 Casul or something. Even .44 mag is iffy.
In a shotgun, think 12 gauge lead slugs and ALOT of practice.
That's my $.02
I've got several bear skulls - they're certainly much thicker than our heads (although not as thick as a liberals of course) but there is no chance of them stopping a 12 guage slug at 'bear defense' ranges. Your buddy must have found one where someone took a 'hail mary' from wayyy too far away.
Again - depends on which bear. For a black bear, it's not so important but for a grizzlie it's not enough to just HIT 'em, you have to do some very specific damage. It's not like hunting them. An attacking griz can have it's heart clean blown away and still go long enough to kill you and then some. You really need to break bone, or cause massive blood loss very fast. That's why larger bore firearms are better as a rule - they will 'air out' a bear much faster, and they can cause more bone damage to shoulders and the like.
Lets make no mistake here - a rifle like a 45-70 is superior to a shotgun, hands down (even tho it's smaller bore than the shottie). But if you're going to get a rifle, get a big bore.
True - although as mentioned penetration alone isn't the issue so use a medium sized to big bore (35 whelen, 44 or 45 cal cartridges, etc)
The advantage of the shotgun is generally weight and cost. But it may not be the 'right' gun for you.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Somewhat of a side issue, but an old native guide in the interior, using a 30-30, said he used to bust bears through the hips to anchor them, then he'd go for a finishing shot. Agreed, this isn't a charging or attacking bear.
Oh yeah - whole different ballgame if you're hunting them. Who cares if they live for another 30 seconds then, as long as they can't get too far. But to put it in perspective a couple of years ago a hunter got 2 solid chest hits in with a 338 mag on a charging griz and if his friend hadn't been there to finish it and get him to the hospital, he'd have been dead. As it was, it was considered a 'miricle' he survived his wounds.
Black bears couldn't likely take that kind of pounding at all - and they're not 'fighters', if they're hurt or scared they run. A griz will tend to think "If i'm going down, i'm taking you with me" and will fight to the last breath after soaking up massive damage. You have to get a 'brain kill' by causing a MASSIVE depressurization of their cardiopulminary system (ie, bleed them out very fast) or break something like shoulders, head, neck, etc to slow 'em down and give you a chance to finish them off.
I HAVE noticed however that in most cases of successfull bear charge defense the shooter fired from near point blank range. I personally suspect that the concussion of the blast at close range (plus of course the fact it's harder to miss and easier to get a 'good' hit) disorients and startles the bear, causing it to break off it's charge while it 'gets its bearings'
That gives time for the damage to do it's work and possibly for you to fire another round. But some charging bears have been driven off this way without even being hit. Takes real nerve tho, waiting till it's that close in.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Foxer said:Oh yeah - whole different ballgame if you're hunting them. Who cares if they live for another 30 seconds then, as long as they can't get too far. But to put it in perspective a couple of years ago a hunter got 2 solid chest hits in with a 338 mag on a charging griz and if his friend hadn't been there to finish it and get him to the hospital, he'd have been dead. As it was, it was considered a 'miricle' he survived his wounds.
Black bears couldn't likely take that kind of pounding at all - and they're not 'fighters', if they're hurt or scared they run. A griz will tend to think "If i'm going down, i'm taking you with me" and will fight to the last breath after soaking up massive damage. You have to get a 'brain kill' by causing a MASSIVE depressurization of their cardiopulminary system (ie, bleed them out very fast) or break something like shoulders, head, neck, etc to slow 'em down and give you a chance to finish them off.
I HAVE noticed however that in most cases of successfull bear charge defense the shooter fired from near point blank range. I personally suspect that the concussion of the blast at close range (plus of course the fact it's harder to miss and easier to get a 'good' hit) disorients and startles the bear, causing it to break off it's charge while it 'gets its bearings'
Hey, sorry. As stated, I just mentioned it as a point of interest. The old fella has been around for a long time, dropped quite a number of Bears and had the experience to back him up. He made mention of a number of experiences on the distance a Bear could travel using its hind legs VS trying to claw its way forward with just the power from its front quarters.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Almost got eaten by a f**king polar bear tonight. We came up off the coast, and he was just sitting there in the rocks waiting for us to come to him. Drove him off with a few rounds of .375, but man that was close! Sounds like he's moved back close to town, I can hear Resources shooting cracker shells. .357 for bear defence???? Nope!
