Reason I ask is I was recently at Fortress St. Louisbourg (Crown jewel of Parks Canada) and one of the actors dressed up as a French soldier of 1755 was explaining that the powder residue on the bayonet would cause fatal blood poisoning if the bayonet wound was survived. It sounded like hooey to me but I said nothing as I was unsure. what's the real deal?
Is black-powder residue toxic?
- Thread starter savagefan
- Start date
then why was black powder used to cauterize wounds in the past?-it's only charcoal, saltpeter, and sulphur-doesn't seem right more than likely the action of the bayonet itself,the residue and the skin/blood- also the transfer between stabbings- nobody stops to even wipe the blade in a bayonet assault-
"blood poisoning( sepsis) is caused by the introduction of microbes( germs) into the blood, which would not be present in a residue of black powder- ie they would have been burnt if they were there-it would take time for that to develop- more than likey it was the transfer of tissue and blood between the two victims-
"blood poisoning( sepsis) is caused by the introduction of microbes( germs) into the blood, which would not be present in a residue of black powder- ie they would have been burnt if they were there-it would take time for that to develop- more than likey it was the transfer of tissue and blood between the two victims-
x2 with T Star. Many of us have had open cuts or scratches on our hands while shooting and I don't recall anyone getting blood poisoning from the powder residue. Blood poisoning from scratches on your hands would be far more common otherwise
cheers mooncoon
cheers mooncoon
Introduce any foreign substance with a deep penetrating wound and it's likely to cause infection. I would say there is some truth to it. We aren't talking a scratch on your hand here but a deep wound that is somewhat self-sealing, trapping the foreign substance in the wound. Blood poisioning and infection were pretty much interchangeable terms in the 1700s. Truthfully, all blood poisioning is, is infection anyhow.
Black powder residue is sterile.
Infections are caused by bacteria introduced into a wound.
My guess was someone told him that even if you didn't die from the bayonet the wound left over would become infected and you would die from blood poisoning. He took that to mean the black powder residue had some effect on increasing it.
To look chemically at the residue I'd be careful while cleaning it to avoid eyes and mouth. Most likely a fresh cut would hurt if the residue came in contact the left over material it is a mixture of corrosive salts and a couple other things. Not something you would want in open wounds. You are talking about putting a large amount into the wound. So anyway you look at it that much crap can't be good for you. .
Just like one guy I knew thought people died from lead poisoning after getting shot and it was so toxic they only had hours to get the bullet out or you would die from it. Ignoring the shock and the blood loss as killing agents. Or the person who told me you have shooting gloves so you don't handle the lead bullets that much and get lead poising.
To look chemically at the residue I'd be careful while cleaning it to avoid eyes and mouth. Most likely a fresh cut would hurt if the residue came in contact the left over material it is a mixture of corrosive salts and a couple other things. Not something you would want in open wounds. You are talking about putting a large amount into the wound. So anyway you look at it that much crap can't be good for you. .
Just like one guy I knew thought people died from lead poisoning after getting shot and it was so toxic they only had hours to get the bullet out or you would die from it. Ignoring the shock and the blood loss as killing agents. Or the person who told me you have shooting gloves so you don't handle the lead bullets that much and get lead poising.
Actually infections can be viral or baterial. Introduce any foreign object into the body and the body tries to get rid of it. A sliver is a classic example. No reason it wouldn't react the same to bp particulate. Puss is your friend when allowed to drain but when contained in a deep/sealed wound, it isn't.
- Location
- Vancouver Island
Bullet wound
About 40 years ago, a young man managed to [accidentally] shoot a pepperbox ,31 ball that channelled the length of my thumb. The wound was about 3" long and shot full of burned and unburned powder. It showed under the skin for over 30 years, [Probably just the carbon, the sulphur and nitre would be dissolved and flushed away quite quickly.}Fouling certainly is'nt poisonous to swallow, I must have eaten a pound of it! Mind you, it isn't my favourite flavour! A sterile foreign substance, even in a deep wound, will not cause infection.It's the dirt,blood, bits of clothing and other biologicals that cause gas-gangrene and other nastiness.
About 40 years ago, a young man managed to [accidentally] shoot a pepperbox ,31 ball that channelled the length of my thumb. The wound was about 3" long and shot full of burned and unburned powder. It showed under the skin for over 30 years, [Probably just the carbon, the sulphur and nitre would be dissolved and flushed away quite quickly.}Fouling certainly is'nt poisonous to swallow, I must have eaten a pound of it! Mind you, it isn't my favourite flavour! A sterile foreign substance, even in a deep wound, will not cause infection.It's the dirt,blood, bits of clothing and other biologicals that cause gas-gangrene and other nastiness.
- Location
- Vancouver Island
"You come to shoot, SHOOT, don't talk! T.G.T.B.&T.U,.
you should take a look at the "surgery" instruments that were available at that time- a well stocked butchershop was better equipped-so is my fishing kit- as for germs- i think that was discovered about 1846 or so- basically, staunch the wound with whatever you could lay your hands on, put on a poultice( which may have been where the sepsis came from) and hope it doesnt turn to gangarene or worse
I think that the value of cleanliness in surgery was recognized even earlier but doctors as a group remained very conservative and continued to ignore the value of clean instruments and cleanliness in general. Lister brought in sterilizing instruments and wounds with carbolic acid in the late 1870's I think but even that still took a number of years to become commonplace.
The reason for amputations was it was the only way to achieve some measure of infection control following a shattered bone or major wound to a limb. Abdominal wounds, particularly intestinal punctures were probably fatal from peritonitis no matter what until the introduction of antibiotic drugs in the early 1900s.
cheers mooncoon
- Location
- In lalaland, that is Ottawa.
Toxcity of BP, lead and garlic
Black powder, unfired or the burnt residue is not toxic.
Lead in the system is toxic as evidenced by the exhaust fans needed in indoor ranges. I shot a single shot Daisey as a kid with lead BB shot in my mouth for fast reloading - must have swallowed some in the heat of battle but check my age.
Now comes the big question and I'm no lawyer and don't know the answer.
As a kid, I read the comics and if I remember correctly from #### Tracy, the hoods would file a X into the end of their pistol bullets, rub raw garlic into it, to induce a fatal wound, even when the hit was not in a vital spot.
Black powder, unfired or the burnt residue is not toxic.
Lead in the system is toxic as evidenced by the exhaust fans needed in indoor ranges. I shot a single shot Daisey as a kid with lead BB shot in my mouth for fast reloading - must have swallowed some in the heat of battle but check my age.
Now comes the big question and I'm no lawyer and don't know the answer.
As a kid, I read the comics and if I remember correctly from #### Tracy, the hoods would file a X into the end of their pistol bullets, rub raw garlic into it, to induce a fatal wound, even when the hit was not in a vital spot.
Weapontech
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- On my way to Hell in a handbasket
As most have said, Blackpowder is not toxic. Both BP containers & material information sheets don't even identify BP or any of its chemical components as a poison or toxic hazard, (only labeled as an explosive hazard).
From the internet:
Blackpowder residue consists of potassium carbonate, potassium sulfate, potassium sulfide, potassium thiosulfate, potassium thiocynate, carbon, and sulfur. All the potassium compounds are salts, considered corrosive.
Historically, salts have been generally used as disinfectants....hence the use of Blackpowder & residues as wound disinfectants makes perfect sense.
In this day and age, it has become the norm to tell everyone that something is "bad" for you. It may be more to discourage the ignorant (or stupid) from actually trying something out than actual factual information.
From the internet:
Blackpowder residue consists of potassium carbonate, potassium sulfate, potassium sulfide, potassium thiosulfate, potassium thiocynate, carbon, and sulfur. All the potassium compounds are salts, considered corrosive.
Historically, salts have been generally used as disinfectants....hence the use of Blackpowder & residues as wound disinfectants makes perfect sense.
In this day and age, it has become the norm to tell everyone that something is "bad" for you. It may be more to discourage the ignorant (or stupid) from actually trying something out than actual factual information.
Thinking about it later, (just got back today) by his logic, every musket ball wound would have been fatal due to the BP residue. Dude was fulla####, either has an agenda or just wants to flap his gums. Thanx for the input guys, I was confused at the tme.
From another perspective; what other residue is produced from black powder burning.
That gawd-awful smell...hint of sulfurous gas...attention all you oilfield workers...what do they teach you about while on a drilling sight.
Sour gas...aka hydrogen sulfide, H2S...also present in domestic sewers and sewage treatment plants.
One of the gases produced in combustion of black powder is hydrogen sulphide...at low concentrations it is not hazardous...though at high concentrations it is very dangerous.
When the gas combines with water vapour it produces sulfuric acid(at a very low concentration)...this is why the gas is a mild irritant, and is mildly corrosive.
Do we all see the connection now?
So, if you wonder why your hands and clothing smell like a sewer after firing your muzzleloader all day...this is why.
Cheers
That gawd-awful smell...hint of sulfurous gas...attention all you oilfield workers...what do they teach you about while on a drilling sight.
Sour gas...aka hydrogen sulfide, H2S...also present in domestic sewers and sewage treatment plants.
One of the gases produced in combustion of black powder is hydrogen sulphide...at low concentrations it is not hazardous...though at high concentrations it is very dangerous.
When the gas combines with water vapour it produces sulfuric acid(at a very low concentration)...this is why the gas is a mild irritant, and is mildly corrosive.
Do we all see the connection now?
So, if you wonder why your hands and clothing smell like a sewer after firing your muzzleloader all day...this is why.
Cheers
