Is it a real Browning HP or a clone?

Gefreiter

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I was recently offered, again, a "Browning High Power" with a serial number beginning by B 09###.

I respectfully submitted to the seller that this was not an autentic Browning, that is was most likely a clone manufactured by FÉG (Fegyver es Gazkeszuelekgyara NV) in Hungary. I might as well as having talked to a wall.

FÉG are rather well made, at least for the finish and in my collection wich includes 26 samples (you may think I like them...), I felt I should own a FÉG clone, if only for the sake of comparing, with the ones made in Belgium (Herstal) or assembled in Portugal, or in Argentina (DM Rosario) or, naturally, in Toronto (Inglis) between March 1944 and September 1945. FÉG has made "fake Brownings", some prefer calling them "stealth", out in the open, not paying for a licence from FN. Sold to armies and police forces in many coutries of the world. And distributors on this continent were not always clear about the nature/origin.

Are they safe to fire?

Let me reverse the question and put it to you this way: would you be comfortable to operate close to your face, a pistol, which is a high pressure device (SAAMI pressure for 9mm x 19P being 35,000 psi for normal ammo, and 38,500 psi for P+) that bears no proofing marks? You don't need to be a retired professional engineer (which I was) to promtly answer NO WAY. I'm not affirming they were never tested, just... at least, show me the money. I have not, and will not shoot my FÉG, as a matter of principle.

I will offer in support of this post, two references in addition to the comprehensive 9x19P entry and Browning High Power found in Wikipedia. First, see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_Hi-Power
(see other listed manufacturers in this article.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum
(… for SAAMI values.)

Then, go read the following post:

https://www.handgunsandammunition.com/hi-power-forum/9243-counterfit-fake-hi-powers.html

I aslo found a long time ago, on the Midwest Gun Works site on-line, a comprehensive list of High Power (made by FN Herstall) serial numbers, starting back in 1935. It's not there any more, but perhaps could be found elsewhere: THERE ARE NO HIGH POWER ever made by FN Herstall WITH S/N BEGINNING WITH LETTER B. Drop me a line with your e-mail address if you want this complete list. Or if you find reliable information to the contrary. I would appreciate.

Getting back to the seller proposing a FÉG clone, he argued that his CFC issued Firearm Registration Certificates shows "Browning" in the box "Marque - Make". Since when does a registration certificate constitute a valid document to establish maker or country of origin?

Browsing through my own CFC issued Firearm Registration Certificates, I can report that all of them show in that box, either "Browning" or "FN Browning". This includes the FÉG, the Brazilian DM Rosario, the Franconia (Germany), and all the Inglis(es) made in Toronto.

I believe a potential buyer should be told, exactly, to the best of the seller's knowledge, what he is contemplating before he concludes the deal. Specially if safety could be an issue. He may want to pay less, or pay the asking price, as I did for mine (finish is VERY nice).

Am I out for lunch here? Your two cents please. Don't hesitate to contradict me, to err is human.

(… to be paid for it is devine!)

Gefreiter
Military firearms collector since 1984
 
Getting back to the seller proposing a FÉG clone, he argued that his CFC issued Firearm Registration Certificates shows "Browning" in the box "Marque - Make". Since when does a registration certificate constitute a valid document to establish maker or country of origin?

I didn't argue at all ....but you did get a little irritated when I didn't agree with you.

The gun is a FN Hi Power not a Browning Hi Power so the Browning Serial number list does not apply.
FN did not follow the same serial number guidelines when selling the guns under their banner.

It is clearly stamped Fabrique Nationale Herstal Belgique not FEG Hungary so as far as I am concerned it is an FN not an FEG..... but I would love others opinions as well.

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JJ
 

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You pays your money and you makes your choice. If you don't like it don't buy it. In the British Army the FN's were normally called Brownings, and I would be happy to fire an FEG, but it isn't my money, so fine.
Being super clear about what you are selling and what you want is a good position to take.
 
I didn't argue at all ....but you did get a little irritated when I didn't agree with you.

The gun is a FN Hi Power not a Browning Hi Power so the Browning Serial number list does not apply.
FN did not follow the same serial number guidelines when selling the guns under their banner.

It is clearly stamped Fabrique Nationale Herstal Belgique not FEG Hungary so as far as I am concerned it is an FN not an FEG..... but I would love others opinions as well.

View attachment 455816

View attachment 455817

JJ

That pistol in the picture is NOT a FÉG ! Most likely FN .
If you look at the slide , slide release and the ejector , sights.
On the other hand , if you happen to have an FÉG I'll be interested .
 
That pistol in the picture is NOT a FÉG ! Most likely FN .
If you look at the slide , slide release and the ejector , sights.
On the other hand , if you happen to have an FÉG I'll be interested .

Thank you and sorry I do not.

JJ
 
I was recently offered, again, a "Browning High Power" with a serial number beginning by B 09###.

I respectfully submitted to the seller that this was not an autentic Browning, that is was most likely a clone manufactured by FÉG (Fegyver es Gazkeszuelekgyara NV) in Hungary. I might as well as having talked to a wall.

FÉG are rather well made, at least for the finish and in my collection wich includes 26 samples (you may think I like them...), I felt I should own a FÉG clone, if only for the sake of comparing, with the ones made in Belgium (Herstal) or assembled in Portugal, or in Argentina (DM Rosario) or, naturally, in Toronto (Inglis) between March 1944 and September 1945. FÉG has made "fake Brownings", some prefer calling them "stealth", out in the open, not paying for a licence from FN. Sold to armies and police forces in many coutries of the world. And distributors on this continent were not always clear about the nature/origin.

Are they safe to fire?

Let me reverse the question and put it to you this way: would you be comfortable to operate close to your face, a pistol, which is a high pressure device (SAAMI pressure for 9mm x 19P being 35,000 psi for normal ammo, and 38,500 psi for P+) that bears no proofing marks? You don't need to be a retired professional engineer (which I was) to promtly answer NO WAY. I'm not affirming they were never tested, just... at least, show me the money. I have not, and will not shoot my FÉG, as a matter of principle.

I will offer in support of this post, two references in addition to the comprehensive 9x19P entry and Browning High Power found in Wikipedia. First, see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_Hi-Power
(see other listed manufacturers in this article.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9×19mm_Parabellum
(… for SAAMI values.)

Then, go read the following post:

https://www.handgunsandammunition.com/hi-power-forum/9243-counterfit-fake-hi-powers.html

I aslo found a long time ago, on the Midwest Gun Works site on-line, a comprehensive list of High Power (made by FN Herstall) serial numbers, starting back in 1935. It's not there any more, but perhaps could be found elsewhere: THERE ARE NO HIGH POWER ever made by FN Herstall WITH S/N BEGINNING WITH LETTER B. Drop me a line with your e-mail address if you want this complete list. Or if you find reliable information to the contrary. I would appreciate.

Getting back to the seller proposing a FÉG clone, he argued that his CFC issued Firearm Registration Certificates shows "Browning" in the box "Marque - Make". Since when does a registration certificate constitute a valid document to establish maker or country of origin?

Browsing through my own CFC issued Firearm Registration Certificates, I can report that all of them show in that box, either "Browning" or "FN Browning". This includes the FÉG, the Brazilian DM Rosario, the Franconia (Germany), and all the Inglis(es) made in Toronto.

I believe a potential buyer should be told, exactly, to the best of the seller's knowledge, what he is contemplating before he concludes the deal. Specially if safety could be an issue. He may want to pay less, or pay the asking price, as I did for mine (finish is VERY nice).

Am I out for lunch here? Your two cents please. Don't hesitate to contradict me, to err is human.

(… to be paid for it is devine!)

Gefreiter
Military firearms collector since 1984

I didn't argue at all ....but you did get a little irritated when I didn't agree with you.

The gun is a FN Hi Power not a Browning Hi Power so the Browning Serial number list does not apply.
FN did not follow the same serial number guidelines when selling the guns under their banner.

It is clearly stamped Fabrique Nationale Herstal Belgique not FEG Hungary so as far as I am concerned it is an FN not an FEG..... but I would love others opinions as well.

View attachment 455816

View attachment 455817

JJ

While FN did use the "A" prefix for initial post occupation built BHP pistols...built from German (Allemand) manufactured occupation parts, FN did not use a simple "B" prefix SN at all.

On the other hand, the Hungarian firm FEG...now defunct, built copies of FNs BHP for years using not only the FEG slide legend, but other slide legends such as "Luger M80", "Parabellum", "Mauser-Werke M80SA" and the US importer Kassnar. With the exception of the "Mauser-Werke" copies that used an 8000 prefix SN, the SN of the other copies are to be found with either a "B" or "L" prefix...followed by 5 numbers. BTW, these FEG P9/M80/PJK-9HP BHP copies are good, well made, pistols that accept FN BHP parts.

In the early/mid '90s FEG covertly built outright counterfeit copies of the FN BHP ('73 Pattern) for an "End-User" country that was no longer able to get legitimate BHP pistols from FN. FEG went so far as to copy the FN slide legend and even obvious "proofs" including the FN "pineapple" on the trigger guard. BUT, apparently they didn't care that the placement, font and SN range they used was identical to that which they used for the FEG branded pistols mentioned above. Because of these obvious...and other, markers FEGs counterfeits are easy to identify...if one knows what to look for.

BTW, the frame SN will be found either on the right side just below the ejection port or on the front strap of the grip. The SN was also stamped on the slide...below the ejection port and the barrel...visible through the ejection port. I mention that because many FEG pistols are to be found in the marked lately, some are parts guns built from a variety of FN, FEG and Inglis parts. If there is no matching...in font and number, SN on the slide and barrel, it'll be a parts gun. If the 3 SNs are identical in font and number it is one of the outright counterfeits.

B prefix IS such an FEG BHP copy or counterfeit, either in whole or as the frame of a parts gun. Your B prefix would have been manufactured in late '93/early "94.

Might not be what one might want to hear, but the information is correct.
 
I didn't argue at all ....but you did get a little irritated when I didn't agree with you.

The gun is a FN Hi Power not a Browning Hi Power so the Browning Serial number list does not apply.
FN did not follow the same serial number guidelines when selling the guns under their banner.

It is clearly stamped Fabrique Nationale Herstal Belgique not FEG Hungary so as far as I am concerned it is an FN not an FEG..... but I would love others opinions as well.

View attachment 455816

View attachment 455817

JJ

That there is a FEG. Go to any high power forum and check, it's a FEG counterfeit BHP MKII.
Completely safe, but worth about half a used FN BHP is.
 
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I own a FEG copy that has all of the FN markings. Not one FN proof mark to be found on it though, nothing on the slide or frame except a copy of the FN roll mark.

I have fired at least a thousand rounds in the 20 or so years I've owned it. years I've owned it, still in one piece.

I also own a Liege, not Portugal built one as well as an Inglis so I'm not new to HP's.
 
i had this one when i was living in the states.

everything would swap with hi power parts except the firing pin.
i changed the recoil spring,extractor,extractor spring and firning pin spring(IIRC)

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got it refinished in cerakote because it was quite pitted and i can't stand to see any gun in rough shape.

p.s. i have the decoding the feg hipower book.
 
Fantastic. At least this is identified as such.
I'm not saying a FÉG is crap. Just that when I buy a Mauser byf-41, I don't want to find out down the road that it's a fake, even if I would have been interested in buying that fake anyway.

Tomorrow, I will post a good picture of both sides of my fine, I repeat: fine, FÉG and of a similar true blue Herstall product.

You want to use pistols, rifles, shotguns with no proof markings ? Go ahead, knock your-self out...:p
 
In reference to:

"You don't need to be a retired professional engineer (which I was)"

probably should have started with that...


I don't like throwing titles around. If my words can't convince by their own authority, I'm wasting my time and yours.
 
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I bought 2 complete FEG P9M's and 2 complete frames with barrels from Questar a bunch of years ago, NOS, they were selling them for peanuts, I think it was $350 for the complete gun, complete frame, and barrel with 4 mags.
I've shot one a bunch, shoots really good no concerns, 1 still unfired, sold a frame to a guy that built it up with FN upper and no issues. Nothing wrong with them, just don't come with the Browning price tags.
Barrels appear to be proofed BTW.
20200922-083357.jpg

20200922-083201.jpg

20200922-083241.jpg
 
i know there was a high polish series of feg hipowers with beautiful blueing.
there was also a run of fegs with a raised rib.

there are also hybrid hipower/s&w clones that have the safety on the slide.these are less desireable than the fn35 types.

i'd love to see everyone else's feg's.

p.s. the s/n on the above feg is an "F series" with the 5 digit number.
 
A few pistol and proof pictures...

This is a true blue FN, right side:
View attachment 455928

The same, FÉG :
View attachment 455929

FN left side:
View attachment 455930

The same, FÉG :
View attachment 455931

Inglis 7T7690, C-broad-Arrow and all:
View attachment 455932

Meanwhile, In Occupied Belgium... Waffenamt markings: proof marks as pistol progresses down assembly line:
View attachment 455933

Frankonia is in Germany what Sears is in the States, where they get dishwashers made by GE, Wirlpool, whatever. This Frankonia (6" barrel) is said to have an upper made by SIG and the lower by FÉG. (Who said FÉG was crap?)...
View attachment 455936

The Capitan, anniversary issue:
View attachment 455937

DM Rosario, Argentina:
View attachment 455941

The original, the "Ur"-HP, 1935, complete with it's wood stock: Sorry, ran out of allowed pictures in post. See next one.

Gefreiter,
(read the fine print from Floyd, or was it Pink ...? : "Did you exchange a walking part in a war, for a lead role in a cage ?") Shine on John Moses...
 
Steve, and KGW..., I am forever indepted to you. Thanks for making this puppy come my way.

View attachment 455944View attachment 455945
Gefreiter

It's called "art" Jimmy. And artist usually put their name on their work, sometimes proudly, pompously, sometimes discretely. I used to sell cameras, at Eatons, in the late 60s. The add went : Just HOLD a Pentax". When I got interested in pistols, I soon realized "Just HOLD a Browning HP"...
Life is good
 
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