Is it time for me to leave the Tavor?

[BeaverMeat]

 

[300Spartans]

the_Klenzer, based on what you have written, I think it's obvious that the VZ turns your crank more than anything. Buy another one and more ammo to shoot through it.

 

[incorrigible]

I would keep the Tavor, if we're talking SHTF then it would be a no brainer for me, a bullpup is so portable and compact while maintaining a long barrel. Competition maybe not as much. But if you want I'll trade you my CZ858 for your Tavor

you don't need a long barrel for a .223 round. After 11 inches there is negligable increase in velocity or accuracy... but the Tavor is a fine rifle.

 

[Madmardigan]

If the only reason your thinking of selling is because of mag changes, I'd say keep it, and practice practice practice. If your issues are mag related then get different mags. I pretty much exclusively use the AT-15 mags in my Tavor. 10 rounds, they drop free, and I'm yet to have the bolt fail to lock open. I have no opinion on AR's as I've only ever shot one once. I like the ergonomics of both, but I honestly prefer the Tavor because I've spent much more time with it. I'm sure because I wasent a custom to the AR before using a Tavor I find the ergonomics very natural. And on that note, I think somebody who is well practiced with the Tavor can do a mag change just as fast as somebody really good with their AR. I can do a mag change in 1 second if I use mags that drop free, and use my strong hand to hit the mag release. I think it ultimately comes down to using mags you know to be reliable, and training. But your clearly competive, so use what your best with.
Just don't sell the tavor. You'll regret it.

 

[DSohm]

This is what I do with my Tavor; run steel mags so they drop free, get used to running the manual of arms and learn the tricks to running it smoothly and then fast.
I slam my trigger hand back into the mag release while my off hand goes to the new mag on my vest. As I am seating my mag the release is being slapped by my thumb. My gun never leaves level to my target, as there is lots of space to work in if you know what you are doing. It is the fastest way to change the mag, and it scores you some cool points. There is no reason you should be any slower than the AR guys, and if anything, you should be faster than a guy with a stock AR due to the Tavor's superior ergonomics and layout.
What it comes down to at the end of the day is practice, practice, and more practice.

 

[300Spartans]

I don't have a Tavor, but it seems that the mag well is closer to the body, therefore allowing even quicker mag changes as the support hand doesn't have to travel the extra distance (even though it's slight, it still is extra distance) from pouch to well.

As said, I would be practicing a whole lot more before I made any move on a sale of a Tavor. However, if you love those Czech guns so much, nothing should deter you from going further into that direction.

Does anyone want to give me a free Tavor so I can analyze in fine detail this issue for the man?

 

[Rhutch]

If you practice, mag changes are extremely fast without even taking your rifle off target. You simple push rearwards with the back of your control hand thumb the mag drops free, insert mag, if bolts in locked open position you use the thumb on the mag insertion hand to release the bolt. Your still on target as your moving your grip hand forward. Mag changes using this method are much faster than AR mag changes.

 

[randyhub]

Well have to say after doing some reading and watching Youtube the Tavor is definately a 21st Century 1st class weapon.

The only concerns I have found is the charging handle being somewhat prone to hang up on things and the possibility under stress shooting that the mag release could accidently be bumped from a unwanted hand movement.

All in all it is quite a platform as expected for being almost $2800.00 and being of a current design. It would take me awhile to get used to trying to seat a mag that far back and out of sight as opposed to an AR but than again I have been shooting ARs for 25 years. I do love the fact you can shoot it anywhere, modular design, compactness, balance, and accuracy of the Tavor.

Flip side is for $2800.00 you could buy a decent AR, optics, mags, .22 rf conversion kit, ammo, trigger group kit, and a entry level pistol, but if you have the funds the Tavor is a 1st class weapon and the platform to own.

Randy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6eG_xuQDcg

 

[Daver_II]

you don't need a long barrel for a .223 round. After 11 inches there is negligable increase in velocity or accuracy... but the Tavor is a fine rifle.

Interesting... That is the opposite of what I have always heard. Do you have stats to back it up?

Here is a study that has all the information. http://sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1093
As it clearly states.... The longer the barrel, the higher the velocity....

And yes I know this is 5.56 NATO, not .223, but the principal is the same.

The military does not use barrels shorter than 11" due to unreliable wound channels and questionable lethality.

 

[misanthropist]

One of the things you will notice in that study is that from around 12" to 19", there's a pretty smooth linear increase in muzzle velocity, beginning around 2600 fps and ending around 2900 fps.

For some reason 11" seems to be a little higher than 12". Not sure what that's about, but factoring it in, if you increase from 11" to 16" you've gained a whopping...150 fps.

Even going all the way from 11" to 20" only gets you another 400 fps or so.

The first foot of barrel gets you nearly 90% of your velocity.

 

[ChrisAlston]

Portability has nothing to do with overall size, its about weight. The increased length of an AR with 16" barrel is minimal. If you aren't kicking doors you won't see much benefit in a smaller package. As for velocity, you can maintain almost 90% the velocity of an 18" barrel in an 11" barrel.

Tdc

All I know is its a lot nicer carrying around my T97 as opposed to the 20" C7 I carried in the army. They both weigh about the same, the C7 perhaps a little more with the Elcan on top. Bullpups just balance a lot nicer for me and seem to carry better if that makes any sense, I can't explain it. Velocity wise I'm always going to take the longest barrel I can possibly get when it comes to 5.56mm while still remaining reasonably compact. An 11" barrel will be inherently more accurate than a longer barrel but the velocity reduction limits it to pretty much CQB only in my mind when using standard FMJ. I like greater flexibility. With a bullpup I get a combination of compactness and long barrel, so it makes the most sense to me. A 14.5"-16" AR is a close second. Just my personal slant on it..

 

[ChrisAlston]

you don't need a long barrel for a .223 round. After 11 inches there is negligable increase in velocity or accuracy... but the Tavor is a fine rifle.

A negligable increase in accuracy yes, velocity not so much. Approx 2500-2600fps at the muzzle with an 11in vs 3000fps+ in an 18in. Not a big deal for shooting paper but in a theoretical shtf I'd take everything I can get.

 

[BCShooterGuy]

There are 10.3's in use by both military and police.

Obviously the longer the barrel the higher the velocity, but you get diminishing returns when you start to factor the extra weight and decreased balance of adding barrel steel out on the end of the gun.

Also the velocity increase is not linear with barrel length, you get less increase the further you get from the chamber.

Shot placement is far more important than impact velocity for shot lethality as well.

 

[pavmentsurfer]

As a person who didnt start with an AR and doesnt have 20 years worth of practice to cloud my judgment, The Tavor is amazing. The ONLY drawback to its ergonomic layout VS an AR IMO is that you cant see the magwell as easily so verifying where your slamming the mag isnt as easy. BUT... I find WHERE the magwel is to be much easier to get to and much faster.I spent my first few years with a VZ58 and I loved it too. If I could own one other rifle at the moment, it would be another VZ. But its a bit heavy and getting a decent optics mounting system is both expensive and even heavier. That was the ONLY thing I didnt like about my VZ. And the fact that the .223 model is known for reliability issues... if you dont want to shoot 7.62 I dont think a VZ is a good choice.

If your having mag issues with your Tavor you might want to try different mags. Ive been running 10 round LAR mags and have, on VERY rare occasions, had the bolt fail to hold open on the last round. With my Pmags (gen 3) ive never had the bolt fail to lock open... EVER. My Gen 3's drop free as well so (LARs do also) so using the fast mag change method described above (back of your strong hand to drop the mag while reaching for the new mag) is extremely fast.

I will say this about the Tavor, if your trying to load a full mag on a closed bolt... your in for a bad time. I dont know why it would be any different than any other gun but even my Pmags that hold 5.5 rounds will NOT seat on a closed bolt. The process for holding the bolt open is just pointless so, all this is to simply agree that bolt hold open issues on a Tavor can result in alot of time wasted. Would it make me second guess choosing my Tavor as an SHTF gun... not a chance. Its my go to gun for everything. But its not perfect. with that said, the AR isnt perfect either.

Charging an AR is annoying. I hate where the handle is and its not nearly as easy to grab with gloves on as it should be (yes, my AR has an extended latch). Anyone ive known with an AR has experienced reliability issues if they dont keep it extremely clean. To me, this is a big negative for any SHTF gun. If your competing you should be starting each day with a clean gun anyway so thats not an issue but, lets say the world ends and your stuck out in the wilderness for weeks at a time... do you want to worry about having to clean your gun all the time? The Tavor could go weeks with out a cleaning and still function fine. The AR, not so much. A VZ is like a Tavor in this respect. They run dirty or clean, no matter what.

I did just build my first AR. Ill be using it and practicing with it right along side my Tavor so I guess ill see if its better or not.

 

[mikethebike]

is it just a question of mag releases and reloads?

i've seen isreali guys do some really really fast mag changes with them. they bump the switch with their wrist of their firing hand, while already having a spare mag in the other hand. I love the mag release switch behind, its so fast to flip it with the loading mag hand without ever leaving the firearm off target. But then again i don't do competitions, cause I'm still a poor shooter.

I dunno for me the mag switches are actually faster on my tavor than on an AR. But thats because I have a tavor in house, while I've only played with a loaner AR at the range.

I have no problems with my beowolf mags on a closed bolt or a atrs mag on a closed bolt.

 

[the_klenzer]

Just an few updates.

Yes, I'm going to keep the Tavor. If I need a SHTF gun, it's always going to be a case full of VZ58s, but the Tavor is still fun.

For my competition gun next year... I'm going to take my Tavor, XCR and both ARs (Noveske, Dlask) out to the range in a couple weeks, as well as my .50 mags. I'll run each through its paces side by side on the specific issues I've had and compare them. I hadn't really considered the XCR (I always sort of forget I own one) but it does have possibly the best ergonomics of the guns I own and is accurate enough. Poor thing gets no love. Still, I think most likely I'll run the Noveske next year.

Of course... I've always wanted an excuse to build a Honey Bader clone.

 

[randyhub]

Wow 20 years plus years of owning various rifles with an AR being the constant, clouds one's judment? Always thought it is a good thing to have some experience at least that's what some women I have known said they like.

Reliability issues with AR, guess I am one of the few lucky ones never having a jam, bolt hold open issue, or FTF in the 20 years plus I have owned ARs.................... Do I clean my AR? Once in awhile (longest I have gone is a couple years yeah I know that is bad), but usually only after burning thru a brick of .22 rimfire ammo with my rimmie kit.

But hey whatever works just know all my Army and LEO buddys that shoot all own ARs don't know if that accounts for much though....

Still think the Tavor looks tacti cool. Enjoy your Tavor if I could justify one and could convince my wife to let me drop 3K I would most likely have one.

R

 

[BCShooterGuy]

I get tired of always hearing how an AR has to be kept immaculate otherwise it won't work...

I have put about 3000 rounds through mine in the last 2 years, cleaning every 500 or so. All I do is wipe down the bolt and carrier and relube. In all those rounds I have experienced exactly 0 failures of any kind.

My AR is also a hodge podge of random decent parts, not high end and not piston.

I have built a few others for family and friends who have had the same reliability with very similar cleaning practices.

 

[randyhub]

I get tired of always hearing how an AR has to be kept immaculate otherwise it won't work...

I have put about 3000 rounds through mine in the last 2 years, cleaning every 500 or so. All I do is wipe down the bolt and carrier and relube. In all those rounds I have experienced exactly 0 failures of any kind.

My AR is also a hodge podge of random decent parts, not high end and not piston.

I have built a few others for family and friends who have had the same reliability with very similar cleaning practices.

Thank you!!

My exact experience as well, the same comments from my Army buddys and as with you my old school is a lowly SWG 11.5" workhorse it just goes bang when I want it to.

Randy

 

[00aught]

Reliability issues with AR, guess I am one of the few lucky ones never having a jam, bolt hold open issue, or FTF in the 20 years plus I have owned ARs..
R

Really. Not one issues? I'm new to firearms but seems hard to believe not one problem in 20 years. But hey if I'm wrong all the more reason for me to get my RPAL and get a nice ar