- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
Spoken just like a cop at the RCMP lab.
Is the K31 a Bolt Action Rifle? DEBATE
- Thread starter Riflechair
- Start date
Spoken just like a cop at the RCMP lab.
...am I the only one thinking that one of those "euro" manually operated BOLT action ARs could legally run a 30 rd mag??? No restrictions on a bolt gun...and then one would own a legal unpinned mag...
edit: Sorry, RC, bit of a highjack
edit: Sorry, RC, bit of a highjack
Nope. It is what the mag is designed to be used in, not what you actually use it in. If it is an AR mag then it is limited to 5 rounds of the caliber it was designed for, regardless if you are using it in a manual action rifle or not.
/hijack
As for OP, the K31 definitely is a bolt action, there is nothing else it could be.
Mark
.
In my opinion, the K-31 is a bolt action rifle. It was designed to be manually operated by using the bolt to load, fire, and eject a cartridge. A rifle designed for semi automatic or full automatic has a Cocking Handle that is designed to load the first cartridge into the chamber, but from then on, the rifle Cocking Handle need not be touched under normal circumstances. In the case of ammunition or rifle malfunctions, the cocking handle is used to clear the chamber. The action relies on gas from the fired cartridge, or from recoil from firing a cartridge to operate the mechanism.
As to a mad minute, I have personally fired, (many years ago when I was a lot younger, in much better shape, and had access to lots of .303 ammunition,) thirty nine rounds at a Figure 11 target placed at 100 yards getting 38 hits within the target figure and 1 miss that was outside by about an inch.
The idea for the "mad minute" was from an exercise practiced by the Soldiers of the British Professional Army before WWI. It was for VERY close ranged shooting at a lot of targets, such as an army of Zulu Warriors that was running at you with the intention of overwhelming your force. WWI with it's mass Infantry attacks gave a valid reason for teaching the practice, because the Horde of Huns climbing over the wire in front of you, with the intent of sticking a Bayonet into your hide could certainly justify learning the technique.
SMELLIE, when he was a Newspaper Editor, interviewed quite a few WWI veterans. One of those Veterans, commenting on the Canadians in the Trenches at Ypres, SMELLIE asked "How close were the Germans." He was told, "Too close to miss."
In my opinion, the K-31 is a bolt action rifle. It was designed to be manually operated by using the bolt to load, fire, and eject a cartridge. A rifle designed for semi automatic or full automatic has a Cocking Handle that is designed to load the first cartridge into the chamber, but from then on, the rifle Cocking Handle need not be touched under normal circumstances. In the case of ammunition or rifle malfunctions, the cocking handle is used to clear the chamber. The action relies on gas from the fired cartridge, or from recoil from firing a cartridge to operate the mechanism.
As to a mad minute, I have personally fired, (many years ago when I was a lot younger, in much better shape, and had access to lots of .303 ammunition,) thirty nine rounds at a Figure 11 target placed at 100 yards getting 38 hits within the target figure and 1 miss that was outside by about an inch.
The idea for the "mad minute" was from an exercise practiced by the Soldiers of the British Professional Army before WWI. It was for VERY close ranged shooting at a lot of targets, such as an army of Zulu Warriors that was running at you with the intention of overwhelming your force. WWI with it's mass Infantry attacks gave a valid reason for teaching the practice, because the Horde of Huns climbing over the wire in front of you, with the intent of sticking a Bayonet into your hide could certainly justify learning the technique.
SMELLIE, when he was a Newspaper Editor, interviewed quite a few WWI veterans. One of those Veterans, commenting on the Canadians in the Trenches at Ypres, SMELLIE asked "How close were the Germans." He was told, "Too close to miss."
,
Now for the SECOND part of something raised, that is Speed. I would venture that the SMLE can get SIX rounds off faster than the K-31.
I can hear the howls right now, but there is a reason for my Thesis. The K-31, by design, is a straight pull rifle, and therefore is operated by pushing and pulling the bolt which gives a very fast time to reload the chamber. However, it is also a design that you have to operate the bolt by taking your hand off the trigger, raising your hand upwards to grasp and operate the bolt, then move your hand downwards, find the trigger, align your sights with the target and pull the trigger.
The SMLE / Lee-Enfield bolt is normally operated by taking your hand off the trigger, reaching up to grasp the bolt, lift the bolt, pull backwards, push forwards and down, then bring your hand back to the wrist to grasp the trigger, align your sights and pull the trigger to fire the rifle. It would seem that this would take longer, and in fact, it does.
Now, pay attention, because there is a test on this later. (Anyone with a SMLE or Lee-Enfield is going to try this if they do not know the technique.)
For really fast bolt manipulation with the SMLE or Lee-Enfield, you grasp the knob of the bolt with your thumb and index finger, and you DO NOT LET GO OF IT. After firing a round, you lift the bolt, manipulate it to eject the empty and chamber a new cartridge, and as you are pushing the bolt forward and down, you align the sights on the target. As your right hand comes down to lock the bolt, the MIDDLE FINGER is used to hit the trigger, and the cycle starts again.
If you want to argue the difference in initial magazine capacity, the K-31 is loading 6 rounds at a time an the SMLE is loading only five. Thus, within four reloads, or the first 30 rounds, the number of rounds reloaded will be equal. I would still bet on the SMLE, because of the Charger design. The Swiss charger must be removed from the action manually which will take a bit of time. The SMLE charger can be ejected out of the charger guide simply by closing the bolt to chamber a cartridge.
By the way, there is a bit faster way to get more rounds per minute out of a SMLE. You load 10 and fire 6 then load 5 and fire 6 and keep going until empty or the minute is up. While this is slightly faster for more rounds fired, it is NOT what the mad minute was originated for. Let us say you have a Company of 100 men on the Line with a mass charge coming at you. 100 men times 10 rounds per rifle is 1000 available rounds. Why would you fire 6 times and then reload? That would mean that 400 available rounds would NOT have been fired at the Enemy in a critical situation. (I had a wonderful argument a while ago on exactly this point.)
Now for the SECOND part of something raised, that is Speed. I would venture that the SMLE can get SIX rounds off faster than the K-31.
I can hear the howls right now, but there is a reason for my Thesis. The K-31, by design, is a straight pull rifle, and therefore is operated by pushing and pulling the bolt which gives a very fast time to reload the chamber. However, it is also a design that you have to operate the bolt by taking your hand off the trigger, raising your hand upwards to grasp and operate the bolt, then move your hand downwards, find the trigger, align your sights with the target and pull the trigger.
The SMLE / Lee-Enfield bolt is normally operated by taking your hand off the trigger, reaching up to grasp the bolt, lift the bolt, pull backwards, push forwards and down, then bring your hand back to the wrist to grasp the trigger, align your sights and pull the trigger to fire the rifle. It would seem that this would take longer, and in fact, it does.
Now, pay attention, because there is a test on this later. (Anyone with a SMLE or Lee-Enfield is going to try this if they do not know the technique.)
For really fast bolt manipulation with the SMLE or Lee-Enfield, you grasp the knob of the bolt with your thumb and index finger, and you DO NOT LET GO OF IT. After firing a round, you lift the bolt, manipulate it to eject the empty and chamber a new cartridge, and as you are pushing the bolt forward and down, you align the sights on the target. As your right hand comes down to lock the bolt, the MIDDLE FINGER is used to hit the trigger, and the cycle starts again.
If you want to argue the difference in initial magazine capacity, the K-31 is loading 6 rounds at a time an the SMLE is loading only five. Thus, within four reloads, or the first 30 rounds, the number of rounds reloaded will be equal. I would still bet on the SMLE, because of the Charger design. The Swiss charger must be removed from the action manually which will take a bit of time. The SMLE charger can be ejected out of the charger guide simply by closing the bolt to chamber a cartridge.
By the way, there is a bit faster way to get more rounds per minute out of a SMLE. You load 10 and fire 6 then load 5 and fire 6 and keep going until empty or the minute is up. While this is slightly faster for more rounds fired, it is NOT what the mad minute was originated for. Let us say you have a Company of 100 men on the Line with a mass charge coming at you. 100 men times 10 rounds per rifle is 1000 available rounds. Why would you fire 6 times and then reload? That would mean that 400 available rounds would NOT have been fired at the Enemy in a critical situation. (I had a wonderful argument a while ago on exactly this point.)
There was also a technique practised at th time of the Great War for speeding-up an SMLE.
It involved SLAPPING the bolt rearward and forward.
When the rifle comes off your shoulder from the recoil, you PIVOT your right hand on the wrist and flip the bolt upward with the index fingr, carry it rearward with the hand and REVERSE the hand.
You then SLAP the bolt forward with the heel of the thumb while your hand is in motion, heading down to take up the trigger.
The 60-degree bolt of the SMLE finds its spot and slips into place as your finger touches the trigger to take up the slack.
One touch and she's gone.
Repeat as necessary or until Fritz quits.
I have two excellent books in my collection. One is called "The Retreat From Mons" and it is written by a junior (Compny-grade) British officer who took part in that series of frontier engagements at the beginning of the Great War. The other is called "The Advance From Mons" and it was written in the early 1920s by a Company-grade young German officer. The two men were, at times, less than 400 yards apart. It is absolutely fascinating to read of the SAME engagement from two opposing points of view. Even more interesting is the fact that each book CONFIRMS the other.
It involved SLAPPING the bolt rearward and forward.
When the rifle comes off your shoulder from the recoil, you PIVOT your right hand on the wrist and flip the bolt upward with the index fingr, carry it rearward with the hand and REVERSE the hand.
You then SLAP the bolt forward with the heel of the thumb while your hand is in motion, heading down to take up the trigger.
The 60-degree bolt of the SMLE finds its spot and slips into place as your finger touches the trigger to take up the slack.
One touch and she's gone.
Repeat as necessary or until Fritz quits.
I have two excellent books in my collection. One is called "The Retreat From Mons" and it is written by a junior (Compny-grade) British officer who took part in that series of frontier engagements at the beginning of the Great War. The other is called "The Advance From Mons" and it was written in the early 1920s by a Company-grade young German officer. The two men were, at times, less than 400 yards apart. It is absolutely fascinating to read of the SAME engagement from two opposing points of view. Even more interesting is the fact that each book CONFIRMS the other.
ghostntheshell
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- GTA ONTARIO
It's a bolt action. No debate required.
Is the sky blue?
Is the sky blue?
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
Had the Swiss been in an empirical mode like the major powers, I have no doubt
they would have come up with a well designed & built battle rifle. (Semi-auto I bet.)
But as a homeland defence rifle, the K31 BOLT action served them well indeed.
K31's are really target rifles in military configuration. I love 'em.
they would have come up with a well designed & built battle rifle. (Semi-auto I bet.)
But as a homeland defence rifle, the K31 BOLT action served them well indeed.
K31's are really target rifles in military configuration. I love 'em.
Hey I'm an enfield guy until the end, but I wouldn't feel uneasy toting a K31.
Just so you guys know there IS a video of a guy firing and timing the enfeild vs k31 on YouTube. I can't for the life of me figure out how to post videos but he is faster with the enfeild. He uses the method where he keeps his hand on the bolt and just uses his
Pinter finger to reach the trigger
Pinter finger to reach the trigger
Had the Swiss been in an empirical mode like the major powers, I have no doubt
they would have come up with a well designed & built battle rifle. (Semi-auto I bet.)
But as a homeland defence rifle, the K31 BOLT action served them well indeed.
K31's are really target rifles in military configuration. I love 'em.
The swiss has a rich war heritage and reputation as great soldier. They did not always fight as a nation, but their individual service as mercenaries gave them a reputation of an elite force. This is why the swiss governement in WWII believed in individual marksmanship and made better quality rifle. Don't get me wrong, Enfields are very good rifle, but they were rushed into production unlike the K31. Barrel dimension of an Enfield could vary between .307 to .322 but the greater number of the common wealth forces and faster rate of fire of the rifle made up for it.
Now, why a bolt action and not a semi-auto? Simply because if the swiss were to enter the war, they would have retreated up on the frozen mountains and defend from there. They were actually very empirical and knew what they were doing.
TargetAcquired
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S. Ontario
I've had the pleasure to shoot the k31 a few times, and it is certainly on my to-buy list (the thought of reloading another caliber keeps me at bay... for now), but I have never seen one of the ammo chargers - aren;t they made of some kind of sturdy cardboard instead of metal? Probably why they're uncommon.
This can't happen with the K31. Squeezing that trigger without the bolt fully closed simply results in the internals trying to rotate the bolt head into the locking lug cut-outs, and he firing pin/striker does not touch the primer.
Maybe diaopter can explain it better.
tac
