Israeli re barreld Mauser
- Thread starter Shovel
- Start date
Rifle is nice with a laminated stock.Been thinking on this rifle. Pretty sure it's a large ring. Researched it a couple of years ago but if anyone can confirm it would be great. And a couple of more questions.. Is the stock from the Israeli army or an after market stock? The barrel has a "5" stamped at the top. Mean anything? The bolt looks well made has it been altered ? Does the magazine open from the bottom? Has a recessed spring loaded button but the bottom didn't open easily. Didn't pry on it for now. And the butt stock end has a hole for some reason? The stock fore end has a hole. Was there a cap there? If it is a military stock how was the sling attached? Lots of questions Thanks in advance for any more information!
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Shovel - I can not answer all your questions - maybe some - I would say that is a "Large Ring" mauser - that front ring should be circa 1.4" diameter or so - versus 1.3" for a Small Ring Mauser - is up to you to look inside to see if it is a "C" bulkhead in there, or an "H" bulkhead.
I would say that was a military stock at one time - where it was cut off at the front, you can see the hole where the cleaning rod had been inserted - will be or used to be a metal "ferrule" just ahead of the recoil lug inlet - within that wood stock - is what the inside end of the cleaning rod turned into so it would not fall out of the rifle.
The sling for that rifle likely was on the side - so a buckle or loop through the butt of the stock (not too far from the wrist), and then the band near the front often had a sling loop to that side.
It appears to still have a military rear sight, but the hand guard and those bands are gone - I can not make out if that is a military front sight, if the barrel was shortened and re-crowned, or whatever - I believe the Israeli conversions to 7.62 NATO precisely matched the 8x57js barrels that they removed - but I could be corrected about that .
From the grain that I see on that stock - I will take wild guess that is a laminate stock - not a solid piece of wood - but is only a guess. I would need to see better for that bolt - is at least one here that someone "modified" and allowed the rear of the bolt body to get MUCH too hot - I would guess was done without heat sink or heat stop paste - that softens the cocking cam, so it can gall or wear in a short time. Often that same lack of attention mungs up the buttress threads within that bolt body and makes the shroud hard to turn - which makes cycling the bolt harder than it should be to do. Brownells sold all the necessary parts and supplies to make those bolts to be "scope friendly" - but apparently some did not see the need for them.
I believe that version of "cupped butt plate" may have had a disassembly hole - was a WWI thing that most soldiers knew how to dismantle their rifle - Canada, Britain, Germany, USA - so once that firing pin assembly is screwed out of the bolt, the firing pin tip was inserted into that hole - the shroud pushed down and the unit was completely dismantled to pieces - similar to P14 and M1917 and others of that time. There was some Mausers (earlier I think) that had a "button" on the side of the butt stock for the same purpose as the hole in the "cupped" butt plate.
Your picture shows someone replaced the original 3 position Mauser safety with an "up / down" two position safety - by doing that, they altered the dismantling procedure for that bolt - to get the firing pin out - can still be done, but not as per WWI system.
The follower in that magazine likely had a right angle stop - to prevent a soldier from closing the bolt when his magazine was empty - would have allowed him to think he had a round chambered when there was nothing in there. For some reason, was a thing when sporterizing those rifles for hunting, to grind that shoulder off - which allows the bolt to close on an empty magazine, without depressing the follower. I am not sure that I understand why that was thought to be a desirable thing to do for a hunting rifle, unless that is what the customers wanted??
If the ONLY alteration done to the floor plate was to add that button - then depress it - push towards the receiver, and at same time slide the floor plate maybe 6 mm towards the trigger guard loop - the floor plate, magazine spring and follower will fall out into your hand. If a hinge was added at the front of that floor plate, and if the stock was relieved for clearance, that floor plate would hinge open. Is a broken one here - someone epoxy bedded the receiver and epoxied the magazine wall to the stock - and there was no clearance for that hinge to pivot - someone forced it to open - the epoxy held, so the magazine box broke in two.
An original military extractor will NOT allow you to insert a single round into the chamber and close the bolt. Was many extractors that were modified to "jump over" the rim of a chambered round, so can do so - but I do not know of any military that did so, or any mil-surp replacements that were "pre-ground. Is likely worth your while to find out if yours will single feed or if it won't. The original Mauser 98 design required a single round to be snapped into the magazine, and THEN the bolt to be closed, chambering that round coming up underneath that extractor..
I would say that was a military stock at one time - where it was cut off at the front, you can see the hole where the cleaning rod had been inserted - will be or used to be a metal "ferrule" just ahead of the recoil lug inlet - within that wood stock - is what the inside end of the cleaning rod turned into so it would not fall out of the rifle.
The sling for that rifle likely was on the side - so a buckle or loop through the butt of the stock (not too far from the wrist), and then the band near the front often had a sling loop to that side.
It appears to still have a military rear sight, but the hand guard and those bands are gone - I can not make out if that is a military front sight, if the barrel was shortened and re-crowned, or whatever - I believe the Israeli conversions to 7.62 NATO precisely matched the 8x57js barrels that they removed - but I could be corrected about that .
From the grain that I see on that stock - I will take wild guess that is a laminate stock - not a solid piece of wood - but is only a guess. I would need to see better for that bolt - is at least one here that someone "modified" and allowed the rear of the bolt body to get MUCH too hot - I would guess was done without heat sink or heat stop paste - that softens the cocking cam, so it can gall or wear in a short time. Often that same lack of attention mungs up the buttress threads within that bolt body and makes the shroud hard to turn - which makes cycling the bolt harder than it should be to do. Brownells sold all the necessary parts and supplies to make those bolts to be "scope friendly" - but apparently some did not see the need for them.
I believe that version of "cupped butt plate" may have had a disassembly hole - was a WWI thing that most soldiers knew how to dismantle their rifle - Canada, Britain, Germany, USA - so once that firing pin assembly is screwed out of the bolt, the firing pin tip was inserted into that hole - the shroud pushed down and the unit was completely dismantled to pieces - similar to P14 and M1917 and others of that time. There was some Mausers (earlier I think) that had a "button" on the side of the butt stock for the same purpose as the hole in the "cupped" butt plate.
Your picture shows someone replaced the original 3 position Mauser safety with an "up / down" two position safety - by doing that, they altered the dismantling procedure for that bolt - to get the firing pin out - can still be done, but not as per WWI system.
The follower in that magazine likely had a right angle stop - to prevent a soldier from closing the bolt when his magazine was empty - would have allowed him to think he had a round chambered when there was nothing in there. For some reason, was a thing when sporterizing those rifles for hunting, to grind that shoulder off - which allows the bolt to close on an empty magazine, without depressing the follower. I am not sure that I understand why that was thought to be a desirable thing to do for a hunting rifle, unless that is what the customers wanted??
If the ONLY alteration done to the floor plate was to add that button - then depress it - push towards the receiver, and at same time slide the floor plate maybe 6 mm towards the trigger guard loop - the floor plate, magazine spring and follower will fall out into your hand. If a hinge was added at the front of that floor plate, and if the stock was relieved for clearance, that floor plate would hinge open. Is a broken one here - someone epoxy bedded the receiver and epoxied the magazine wall to the stock - and there was no clearance for that hinge to pivot - someone forced it to open - the epoxy held, so the magazine box broke in two.
An original military extractor will NOT allow you to insert a single round into the chamber and close the bolt. Was many extractors that were modified to "jump over" the rim of a chambered round, so can do so - but I do not know of any military that did so, or any mil-surp replacements that were "pre-ground. Is likely worth your while to find out if yours will single feed or if it won't. The original Mauser 98 design required a single round to be snapped into the magazine, and THEN the bolt to be closed, chambering that round coming up underneath that extractor..
Last edited:
Thanks great information! I'll take a pic of the front sight. I'll try the single round as well. The bolt won't close on empty. Doesn't look like a hinge on the magazine floor plate. I'll take a closer look. Thanks again for the info
WWI German receiver IDF property marks and 7.62 added, weaver style mounts added.
WWII German stock, late type, sporterized. the hole through the stock is for the sling, the small hole on the butt plate is for bolt disassembly.
bolt handle turned down for scope, side safety added.
WWII German-style sights and trigger guard.
I would expect this one to be a good hunting rifle, nice that the barrel and sights haven't been messed with.
WWII German stock, late type, sporterized. the hole through the stock is for the sling, the small hole on the butt plate is for bolt disassembly.
bolt handle turned down for scope, side safety added.
WWII German-style sights and trigger guard.
I would expect this one to be a good hunting rifle, nice that the barrel and sights haven't been messed with.
- Location
- Nova Scotia
I've gotten 1in 3 shot groups at 100 with cheap chinese copper wash 308 with mine. Before I put it back to irons.The sights are the downfall of these guns, as they shoot high at 100yards.
Hopefully they drilled and tapped the holes in line with the bore. I seen alot crooked and you needed windage rings, or bases to zero it. Mine was like that.
Hopefully they drilled and tapped the holes in line with the bore. I seen alot crooked and you needed windage rings, or bases to zero it. Mine was like that.
- Location
- Nova Scotia
They don't have hinged floor plates, really no need to take it off as it can be hard to. But you push up the detent on the bottom near the trigger guard and push back the plate. But unloading is just cycle the bolt forward and back.
It's not that you cannot load it single shot. It's just push feed designed guns, you can damage the extractors if you don't load It from the magazine.
By bolt wont close on empty, you mean the bolt locks back preventing it from chambering? Might be catching on your follower, locking the bolt back to load it from stripper clips. Push the follower down to push the bolt forward
I can see some marks on the magazine plate from probably pushing it forward. I'll skip removing it for now. Does the bolt face look unaltered?
Is the stock German military then? And altered after the military for a scope?
Is there a hood or a shroud for the front sight that fits these? Just like the look of a hood. Putting a scope on today or in the next few days.
Thanks again for the info and history
Is the stock German military then? And altered after the military for a scope?
Is there a hood or a shroud for the front sight that fits these? Just like the look of a hood. Putting a scope on today or in the next few days.
Thanks again for the info and history
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Your pictures in Post #12 - looks like a military front sight - yes, originals had a hood. Likely you will see the hood, if not that sight, within your scope view. That bothers some people. That bolt face looks unaltered - that extractor claw looks like a flat front face - not ground, so I doubt that one will allow to single feed by putting one cartridge into the chamber - that bolt will not likely close - sort of one of those things to try - to know whether it does or not.
Your floor plate (second picture) does not appear to be altered, although the little "locking screw" to anchor that front action screw is gone - should be similar at rear of the trigger guard loop for the other action screw - I had read that Russian Capture Mausers seldom retain those locking screws. If that floor plate, it's lugs, the latch or the bottom metal have been bent, beat on or otherwise altered, maybe does not dismantle and re-assemble as easy at it did originally.
A war time soldier would have inserted the pointy tip FMJ round into that hole just in front of the trigger guard loop - up into that floor plate. That releases the internal latch and allows that floor plate to slide toward rear of the rifle - and then it falls off, with the magazine spring and follower attached. You can do the same with anything about the size and shape of a FMJ bullet - phillips screwdriver, rounded wood dowel - anything that can press that spring loaded button "up" towards the receiver. Imagine submerging your rifle in fine mud or quicksand - magazine will be full of it - so will the bolt - rifle likely not going to work well - so soldiers of that era taught how to clear the magazine well, and to strip that bolt - using only stuff that they had on them - no tools - perhaps a pointy ended FMJ bullet and their fingers, and that disassembly hole on the butt plate.
Surplus Mausers like that one can be made into very fine and desirable hunting rifles - or made into real "hack jobs" - is about the skill and knowledge of the person doing the work. If / when you install a scope, you will lose the ability to reload with a "charger" (stripper clip, or whatever germans called them) - was original concept for that rifle - putting a scope on almost always means snapping cartridges one by one into the magazine from the top. I suppose there has been various attempts to modify or replace those bottom metal to use a detachable magazine and load them into the rifle from the bottom? I believe companies like SAKO and Parker Hale got "big time" into converting inexpensive captured Mauser 98's into hunting rifles of various calibers.
From the few that I have had, it seems part of that Israeli conversion from 8x57JS - besides replacing the barrel - was also to block the front portion of the magazine box - so that 7.62 NATO cartridges did not get too far out of line - front to back. I do not think the milling of the feed lips on the underside of the receiver was altered - as if the 7.62 NATO was close enough shape to 8x57JS, to work. But I could be corrected about that.
Your second picture sort of confirms that is a laminate stock. Expect the military sights to shoot very high at 100 yards - was a concept to aim at other guy's belt buckle - to impact higher, accomplished what was needed. Brownells sold tall flat topped front sight inserts - would make bullet impact much lower. Both front sight and rear sight will have an aligning screw into a matching divot on the barrel - the sight bodies were "sweated" - soft soldered (50% lead plus 50% tin, or some variation of that). Is typical that the area under the sight bodies are NOT blued - will be raw steel coloured to allow the solder to grab.
From pictures in your earlier Post #4 - I think the reinforce ridge for the "charger" has been removed - to make it look more like a commercial Mauser 98 - of the ones here, is a sure place to look how well that was done - is hard to hand file and keep that curved surface properly profiled and flat - with straight edges on left and right side. Brownells used to sell receiver mandrels and holders that would allow a receiver like that to be set up in a mill, - and then dozens of passes with a square end mill to remove that ridge - rotating that receiver in the holder for each pass - then use emory cloth to smooth it out and re-blue it.
Your floor plate (second picture) does not appear to be altered, although the little "locking screw" to anchor that front action screw is gone - should be similar at rear of the trigger guard loop for the other action screw - I had read that Russian Capture Mausers seldom retain those locking screws. If that floor plate, it's lugs, the latch or the bottom metal have been bent, beat on or otherwise altered, maybe does not dismantle and re-assemble as easy at it did originally.
A war time soldier would have inserted the pointy tip FMJ round into that hole just in front of the trigger guard loop - up into that floor plate. That releases the internal latch and allows that floor plate to slide toward rear of the rifle - and then it falls off, with the magazine spring and follower attached. You can do the same with anything about the size and shape of a FMJ bullet - phillips screwdriver, rounded wood dowel - anything that can press that spring loaded button "up" towards the receiver. Imagine submerging your rifle in fine mud or quicksand - magazine will be full of it - so will the bolt - rifle likely not going to work well - so soldiers of that era taught how to clear the magazine well, and to strip that bolt - using only stuff that they had on them - no tools - perhaps a pointy ended FMJ bullet and their fingers, and that disassembly hole on the butt plate.
Surplus Mausers like that one can be made into very fine and desirable hunting rifles - or made into real "hack jobs" - is about the skill and knowledge of the person doing the work. If / when you install a scope, you will lose the ability to reload with a "charger" (stripper clip, or whatever germans called them) - was original concept for that rifle - putting a scope on almost always means snapping cartridges one by one into the magazine from the top. I suppose there has been various attempts to modify or replace those bottom metal to use a detachable magazine and load them into the rifle from the bottom? I believe companies like SAKO and Parker Hale got "big time" into converting inexpensive captured Mauser 98's into hunting rifles of various calibers.
From the few that I have had, it seems part of that Israeli conversion from 8x57JS - besides replacing the barrel - was also to block the front portion of the magazine box - so that 7.62 NATO cartridges did not get too far out of line - front to back. I do not think the milling of the feed lips on the underside of the receiver was altered - as if the 7.62 NATO was close enough shape to 8x57JS, to work. But I could be corrected about that.
Your second picture sort of confirms that is a laminate stock. Expect the military sights to shoot very high at 100 yards - was a concept to aim at other guy's belt buckle - to impact higher, accomplished what was needed. Brownells sold tall flat topped front sight inserts - would make bullet impact much lower. Both front sight and rear sight will have an aligning screw into a matching divot on the barrel - the sight bodies were "sweated" - soft soldered (50% lead plus 50% tin, or some variation of that). Is typical that the area under the sight bodies are NOT blued - will be raw steel coloured to allow the solder to grab.
From pictures in your earlier Post #4 - I think the reinforce ridge for the "charger" has been removed - to make it look more like a commercial Mauser 98 - of the ones here, is a sure place to look how well that was done - is hard to hand file and keep that curved surface properly profiled and flat - with straight edges on left and right side. Brownells used to sell receiver mandrels and holders that would allow a receiver like that to be set up in a mill, - and then dozens of passes with a square end mill to remove that ridge - rotating that receiver in the holder for each pass - then use emory cloth to smooth it out and re-blue it.
Last edited:
- Location
- Nova Scotia
It's considered sporterized. Someone modified it for the scope mounts, typical weaver #45,#46 bases. They cut the forearm. Nothing was done by the military.
Pot. My isreali mauser can single load. You're focusing on it and confusing him. When it's not a big deal. You can, just it can damage the extractor. I used to just drop the round on the follower and close the bolt.
I'm pretty sure many people just took a file to the stripper clip guide. I bet most sporter Mausers we seen were just done with hand tools.
Pot. My isreali mauser can single load. You're focusing on it and confusing him. When it's not a big deal. You can, just it can damage the extractor. I used to just drop the round on the follower and close the bolt.
I'm pretty sure many people just took a file to the stripper clip guide. I bet most sporter Mausers we seen were just done with hand tools.
Don't see a stopper in the magazine the 308 has a little less than a half inch of play. By charger you mean the bolt?
Scope arrived today and it don't fit. The 40mm is a bit too big. The sight interferes with medium rings. Keeping an eye out for a smaller scope. This one went on the BLR.
Scope arrived today and it don't fit. The 40mm is a bit too big. The sight interferes with medium rings. Keeping an eye out for a smaller scope. This one went on the BLR.
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Don't see a stopper in the magazine the 308 has a little less than a half inch of play. By charger you mean the bolt?
Scope arrived today and it don't fit. The 40mm is a bit too big. The sight interferes with medium rings. Keeping an eye out for a smaller scope. This one went on the BLR.
Charger aka stripper clip guide. The [ shaped thing ontop of the reciever. It used to be higher. But many grounded them off to mount scope mounts. They didnt make scope mounts back then, that you didnt have to grind them off.
So on alot of drilled and tapped mausers, you'll see it.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
"Chargers" I think was the British name for the things - many people call them "stripper clips" - I do not know what the Germans called them - was a "clip" that held 5 rounds together - how a soldier on the front line would receive his ammunition - the idea was that he would snap onto his rifle - then "strip" the five rounds into the magazine with his thumb - the charger "clip" would fly away when the bolt was slammed shut. Is a poster on CGN who described working as a boy at rifle ranges in Canada - used shovels and wheel barrows to scoop up expended "chargers" from 303 British - into 45 gallon barrels and on to land fill.
A picture of a Mauser 98 "charger" with 8x57JS cartridges and some round nose bullets that I was playing with - on left - and then same device for 303 British on the right - note that the devices are different - made for a particular rifle and sometimes a particular cartridge. So, for example, a Swede 6.5x55 has a slightly larger diameter rim than on 8x57JS - people will no doubt tell you that both chargers might work in the same rifle - but they are different to each other. That one on the right should work in a No. 1 set up for "charger" reloading, the No. 3, No. 4 and No. 5 rifles. Contrary to some modern "thought" - the magazine on Lee Enfield rifles was not meant to be replaced to reload - might think of it as a fixed magazine that is easy to remove. Even my Dad thought it could be used as a detachable magazine - so wanted to have "spares" - although I doubt WWI or WWII soldiers ever carried a "spare" - their ammo usually showed up in those "chargers" - not within a magazine.
A picture of a Mauser 98 "charger" with 8x57JS cartridges and some round nose bullets that I was playing with - on left - and then same device for 303 British on the right - note that the devices are different - made for a particular rifle and sometimes a particular cartridge. So, for example, a Swede 6.5x55 has a slightly larger diameter rim than on 8x57JS - people will no doubt tell you that both chargers might work in the same rifle - but they are different to each other. That one on the right should work in a No. 1 set up for "charger" reloading, the No. 3, No. 4 and No. 5 rifles. Contrary to some modern "thought" - the magazine on Lee Enfield rifles was not meant to be replaced to reload - might think of it as a fixed magazine that is easy to remove. Even my Dad thought it could be used as a detachable magazine - so wanted to have "spares" - although I doubt WWI or WWII soldiers ever carried a "spare" - their ammo usually showed up in those "chargers" - not within a magazine.
Attachments
Last edited:
- Location
- Western Manitoba
"stopper" - the 7.62 NATO round is perhaps 1/4" to 3/8" shorter than the original 8x57JS round - so part of the Israeli conversion was to solder or glue a "block" into the front part of the magazine box. Was a plethora of Mauser 98 available to civilians following WWII - made in many countries - so nothing says that magazine box was used with that receiver - would be bazillions that would fit - some were Israeli conversions and some from else where. Same floor plate, magazine spring and follower will likely work fine in multitude of Mauser 98 bottom metal - so if yours does not have a "stopper" installed at front of magazine box, is a good sign that was not a magazine box that the Israeli's worked over.
Your "scope to big" meant that the rings that you used were too short - taller rings likely would have allowed it to mount. You will then discover that the rifle stock comb is pretty decent height for line of sight for iron sights - but will be somewhat short for using a scope - can see pictures of "German snipers" using more or less "chin weld" rather than "check weld" to aim - or many people will install a comb riser on the stock to match to the height of the scope that they use. My Dad never did, when he finally transitioned to a scope on his deer rifle - so he was like a "side of jaw" weld, or perhaps "chin weld" on his stock when he fired - it worked fine - he shot many truck loads of deer both before and after installing his little scope (1.75-5 power).
- Location
- Nova Scotia
His has a spacer, I can see it.
I found if you wanted scopes to clear the rear sight with 40mm you needed X high scope rings. You may get away with high and 32mm obj.
I found if you wanted scopes to clear the rear sight with 40mm you needed X high scope rings. You may get away with high and 32mm obj.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
OP - at some point was "hinged floor plates" raised in this thread. Was a common enough thing to see in "how to do" articles to convert standard Mauser 98 floor plates to be "hinged". So when Argentina surplused their 1909 rifles - made by DWM in Berlin - decently high quality Mausers, and one of the few military contracts that came with a hinged floor plate - apparently much desired at that time to "hack up" to make hunting rifles - so sort of unusual to find ones that were left alone. Below is a picture of hinged floor plates from Argentine 1909 - is a Cavalry Carbine above (with curved down bolt handle) and an Infantry version below (with straight bolt handle) - should be able to see the hinges (ahead of the floor plate), and the latch (insetted into the front of the trigger guard loop). Apparently were sold off very cheaply - of course I waited many decades too long - and therefore paid many hundreds dollars more for these two. With very minor or no effort, these floor plates / bottom metal would install into about any Mauser 98.
