IWI CSR18 Carmel non restricted rifle with 18.6” Barrel

[BP4W]

What on earth? How did I miss this one? I miss my X95 soooo much, I am so looking forward to getting my pre-order Makasi. Is this is for sale, where can we get one, unless it is special order... At any rate, I can't afford one but I will sell off a bunch of my cope guns to get this...

I don't get this - C21...how are we able to have such cool things pass the RCMP? That said, I won't ask too many questions...where can I get one???

C21 only applies to firearms designed after 2023-12-15.

Carmel was designed in 2019 so the newly added prohibition clauses under C21 outright does not apply, unless the RCMP invents a time machine. Same thing with the Makasi - it's been around for a while.

 

[thegazelle]

C21 only applies to firearms designed after 2023-12-15.

Carmel was designed in 2019 so the newly added prohibition clauses under C21 outright does not apply, unless the RCMP invents a time machine. Same thing with the Makasi - it's been around for a while.

It is strange...all the other firearms banned then were designed before 2023...so how did some fall through the cracks, unless they were not available in Canada at the time.

Some people consider whether an FRT would ensure it doesn't get banned like the Crypto.

But FRT or no FRT, it is not the government's sneakiness to arbitrarily ban things. Like the R9, domestically manufactured to C21 specs.

I am still scratching my head why handguns were frozen, while long guns were banned. Definitely no logic to these government decisions, and that's the part that is more alarming.

Still, I am in for a Carmel. Will contact my supplier to see if she can pre-order one. Can't live in fear, and give the government's tactics any degree of credence.

 

[greentips]

It is strange...all the other firearms banned then were designed before 2023...so how did some fall through the cracks, unless they were not available in Canada at the time.

Some people consider whether an FRT would ensure it doesn't get banned like the Crypto.

But FRT or no FRT, it is not the government's sneakiness to arbitrarily ban things. Like the R9, domestically manufactured to C21 specs.

I am still scratching my head why handguns were frozen, while long guns were banned. Definitely no logic to these government decisions, and that's the part that is more alarming.

Still, I am in for a Carmel. Will contact my supplier to see if she can pre-order one. Can't live in fear, and give the government's tactics any degree of credence.

They just download the FRT table and did a copy and paste.

No one submitted the thing before 2023, it had NO FRT, therefore it was not downloaded. Simple as that.

 

[thegazelle]

They just download the FRT table and did a copy and paste.

No one submitted the thing before 2023, it had NO FRT, therefore it was not downloaded. Simple as that.

Yeah I just checked Armalytics. So there are only two entries for IWI Carmel:

1. Full automatic is prohibited.
2. Semi automatic is restricted (presumably that's the 16" the CC guys used)

Explains why we haven't seen a NR one listed for pre-orders, etc. - at least widely available. The restricted one was published June 1 of this year. Interesting that there are two entries for the same restricted model, one showing 5 rounds and the other 30. Wonder if this is the kind of thing that inflated the gun bribe reported numbers

 

[BP4W]

It is strange...all the other firearms banned then were designed before 2023...so how did some fall through the cracks, unless they were not available in Canada at the time

You are confusing different ways the government can ban guns.

C21 only prevents FUTURE guns from being legal, not the OIC guns. Those are name-bans and therefore bypasses all regular classification methods altogether, which includes C21's new prohib clause.

And yes, the way they "fall through the cracks" was exactly because they weren't available in Canada at that time. Greentips is absolutely right that the Liberals simply downloaded the FRT and compiled a list of what was available at the time. If it wasn't on there, the Libs would have zero knowledge of them, hence their absence in the OIC.

Some people consider whether an FRT would ensure it doesn't get banned like the Crypto.

Ironically, if you read the Crypto's FRT carefully, it will tell you that the RCMP banned it NOT because it violated C21. In fact, the RCMP deemed it C21 compliant, and even made note of its use of a proprietary cartridge magazine. Instead, they believe it was an "AR-15 variant", the same excuse used to ban the ATRS MS and a couple other rifles.

They just download the FRT table and did a copy and paste.

No one submitted the thing before 2023, it had NO FRT, therefore it was not downloaded. Simple as that.

Nailed it. This is exactly how the OICs were created in 2020, 2024, and 2025. The Libs found a panel of bureaucrats that scraped the FRT for guns meeting their arbitrary "criteria" and copy-pasted them into the OIC.

 

[BP4W]

Interesting that there are two entries for the same restricted model, one showing 5 rounds and the other 30. Wonder if this is the kind of thing that inflated the gun bribe reported numbers

Nope, those entries are referred to as "child" or "sub" FRT/FRNs and do not inflate the numbers referred to as "makes and models".

Magazine capacities are added when a business (in this case, North Sylva and a few others) declares it. They absolutely can declare a 5 round one for the Canadian market and a 30 round one because a) it's how they arrived from IWI to their warehouse and b) they might have a BFL to own prohibited devices.

I know this because I had the exact same question when I was taking my verifiers course years ago... And asked the guys from the RCMP how and why this is a thing to begin with. It doesn't mean that a 30 round mag is legal for this gun for us laymen. I think it's a pointless distinction personally, as anyone can change out a detachable box magazine in two seconds.

 

[thegazelle]

Nope, those entries are referred to as "child" or "sub" FRT/FRNs and do not inflate the numbers referred to as "makes and models".

Magazine capacities are added when a business (in this case, North Sylva and a few others) declares it. They absolutely can declare a 5 round one for the Canadian market and a 30 round one because a) it's how they arrived from IWI to their warehouse and b) they might have a BFL to own prohibited devices.

I know this because I had the exact same question when I was taking my verifiers course years ago... And asked the guys from the RCMP how and why this is a thing to begin with.

Thanks for the clarification and correction.

 

[BP4W]

Thanks for the clarification and correction.

Anytime! Canadian firearm regs are such a clusterfk that I am still learning new things every day

 

[thegazelle]

Anytime! Canadian firearm regs are such a clusterfk that I am still learning new things every day

Here's another one about which I have always been confused...if you know the answer, I'd love to get educated here...

I bought my 10/22 more than two decades ago. I bought a Butler Creek 25-round magazine for it. Perfectly legal.

Years later (2007 or 2009) when the Ruger Charger pistol came out, I could no longer use (legally anyway) the 25 round magazine even though it was designed for 10/22 (packaging even says that), because apparently it would fit into a 22 pistol which has 10 round limits for their magazines.

Yet we can use 10 round LAR-15 mags, designed for LAR15 pistol, in an AR-pattern rifle, like this Carmel.

Also, and if I know this is off topic but if anyone can hypothesize why handguns are frozen but rifles are banned...I'd appreciate some insight.

 

[BP4W]

Years later (2007 or 2009) when the Ruger Charger pistol came out, I could no longer use (legally anyway) the 25 round magazine even though it was designed for 10/22 (packaging even says that), because apparently it would fit into a 22 pistol which has 10 round limits for their magazines.

Yet we can use 10 round LAR-15 mags, designed for LAR15 pistol, in an AR-pattern rifle, like this Carmel.

Ironically these two are the same law being interpreted in the same (and as some may say, incorrect) fashion by the RCMP, both retroactively.

Their original interpretation of the handgun to rifle cross-compatibility capacity was:
- If it's designed for a handgun first and foremost but fits in a rifle, then it's limited to 10. See: most PCCs.
- If it's designed for a centrefire semiautomatic rifle that came first, and the handgun came after, then it's limited to 5 as it was for a centrefire semiauto.

The 10/22 was a rimfire and therefore had no capacity restrictions whatsoever. So it lived in isolation and peace for decades.

Then one day our all-knowing government decided to call the 10/22 Charger a "pistol", and retroactively applied the first rule incorrectly, therefore limiting all 10/22s to 10 rounds from infinity, even if the receiver of a 10/22 rifle and "pistol" are identical, and anyone can swap the stocks around with an allen key in 30 seconds. Had they applied the second rule, that would mean the 10/22 Charger "Pistol" can now have 25-round mags - and I don't think our performative government wants to have a "pistol" that exceeds 10 rounds. On paper these "loopholes" makes their gun control measures look bad, although their real-life impact on public safety are nil.

Enterprising individuals also asked the RCMP if they can do the same to the LAR-15 "pistol" and its centrefire magazines. And in a move that defies all odds, the RCMP said yes and also (incorrectly) applied this rule so that certain STANAG mags that are explicitly marked "designed for RRA LAR-15 Pistol" can now enjoy a 10-round capacity.

I hate to be that guy, but IMHO if we apply the same standards from day 1, neither of these gotchas should exist: The 10/22 should not have a 10 round limit and the STANAG should have a 5 round limit. But hey, the government bent the rule twice so we ended up with two quirks in our already complicated laws.

And once a precedence was set, others followed suit. The .22LR Vector was limited to 10 because the Vector SDP. The XCR-L Pistol was brought in so 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 STANAG mag capacities were raised from 5 to 10 as well. The list goes on and on and on.

Sorry for the rambling but that's my personal, unprofessional opinion on this whole "pistol magazine" BS.

 

[SigWig]

The 10 round 10-22 rule has never been challenged. Should someone with deep pockets get cought, they could challenged it and win.

 

[economics]

Shot the restricted variant today, it had already gone through 3000+ rounds by the time I got a shot so it had warmed up considerably. Here are my thoughts, I’m by no means an expert it’s just what I found.

Something had loosened from the front of the handguard (I don’t recall what it was exactly), it was gone they couldn’t find it. They kept having to tighten a screw in that general area as well but didn’t seem like much of a concern.

It’s very soft shooting and easy to control and stay on target, it looks like it will be heavy but it’s surprisingly light.

I’m not sure if it was just dirty after all those rounds or just my bad luck but I shot 50 rounds and at least two of the mags I had issues feeding. I would chamber it and pull the trigger it would click and nothing would happen. I was told prior to my turn that they only had a couple malfunctions during the 3000 rounds mainly fte / stovepipe. But for me it was fail to feed both times it malfunctioned for me. It was getting pretty hot so they were waiting for it to cooldown between rounds but I had gloves on so I just sent it.

Ergonomics wise it was okay, I kept putting my hand behind the charging handle, there’s a couple ways to chamber a load one of which is a button right below the receiver / above the safety area, when I’d hit that I had to be sure of my hand placement and placing it in front of the handle. When I would chamber the round the handle would come back towards the front of the gun and if you c clamp you need to make sure it’s infront of that handle. There’s a big paddle on the left side below the handle which you can slap to chamber a round, that was cool.

The 16” makes the protruding barrel not as bad but I can only imagine another 2.6” and what it would look like. Tbh this gun really wants to host a suppressor. I’m not really a fan of the stock either I had it fully extended but just wasn’t my cup of tea (nothing egregious). Overall the firearm is a bit of an ugly duckling for lack of a better term, but makes up for it in performance.

It seemed it was over gassed as well as it was violently ejecting shells in every single direction you had to make sure to duck for cover lol.

I have a makasi on pre order and I was humming and hawing about preordering this one too today but I decided against. Will wait for the makasi and reevaluate.

 

[Ipscshooters]

^^^^^^^ thank you so much for the detailed review, I wonder if its the same one that was given to the guys at Canadian Caliber for their review

Put it this way I guarantee you the guys at North Sylvia put 3 to 5 k round down range when they first got their hands on it , Canadian caliber probably shot 2 k rounds between the guys, you said 3 k rounds thru it before you shot it, if this is the only one they have this will have 10k rounds by the end of the day.

They are really putting a good hurt on this rifle

Or maybe im completely wrong and they gave several of these kicking around

You had the stock fully extended? You must be a big guy with long arms ?

Any pics?

Thanks for taking the time for your review

 

[SigWig]

Ftf
Failed to fire

 

[9.3 Hunter]

Although ambient Summer temperatures often exceeded 55C, I never noticed a problem with my issued C8 carbine being too hot to handle when out and about in the sunshine in Afghanistan. Unless the carbine had just been extensively fired, they were fine to handle, - especially as the hand-hold and cheek-weld parts were typically made of polymer. I do not recall the metal parts being too hot to handle either, unless (again) the firearm had recently fired several Magazines in short order.

Polymer handling surfaces make good sense in the Desert, no doubt about it. I am not however convinced that small arms employed in hot climates need full polymer cladding such as has been attempted with the Carmel. Exposed Barrels cool the quickest, not Barrels that are covered by a Handguard clad in polymer gripping surfaces with no venting opportunity.....

Had a C8 (my issue) for one year in Afghanistan, was one of the old original late 80s models, ran fine but yes hot after several mags fired at a time or more + the forend would get pretty hot - a reason for fire resistant gloves believe me + you needed.

 

[economics]

^^^^^^^ thank you so much for the detailed review, I wonder if its the same one that was given to the guys at Canadian Caliber for their review

Put it this way I guarantee you the guys at North Sylvia put 3 to 5 k round down range when they first got their hands on it , Canadian caliber probably shot 2 k rounds between the guys, you said 3 k rounds thru it before you shot it, if this is the only one they have this will have 10k rounds by the end of the day.

They are really putting a good hurt on this rifle

Or maybe im completely wrong and they gave several of these kicking around

You had the stock fully extended? You must be a big guy with long arms ?

Any pics?

Thanks for taking the time for your review

There was two that I saw that were in use. Id say my arms aren’t long but not t-rex either haha I’ll see if I can get some stills I took videos mainly. I actually saw one of the guys from cc there which was pretty cool. I think it was pmc ammo iirc and we were using 10 round mags (the interior of the mags were orange)

Updated the pictures

 

[Ipscshooters]

There was two that I saw that were in use. Id say my arms aren’t long but not t-rex either haha I’ll see if I can get some stills I took videos mainly. I actually saw one of the guys from cc there which was pretty cool. I think it was pmc ammo iirc and we were using 10 round mags (the interior of the mags were orange)

Apologies for the photo quality

Thanks for the review and photos

 

[Ustauk]

Comparison of Carmel to IWI Arad (HK416 like, short stroke piston, buffer tube recoil recovery). Definitely not getting the Arad hear (AR-15 lower), but good to see recent Carmel vs conventional AR ergo comparison.

 

[Grove]

Comparison of Carmel to IWI Arad (HK416 like, short stroke piston, buffer tube recoil recovery). Definitely not getting the Arad hear (AR-15 lower), but good to see recent Carmel vs conventional AR ergo comparison.

11:00 to 12:10 - Complains that the rifle is gassy and the brake is the culprit when you can clearly see it is the wind blowing the gasses back into their faces.

I guess these folks never heard about the old man pissing into the wind and hitting his own face LOL.

 

[greentips]

Comparison of Carmel to IWI Arad (HK416 like, short stroke piston, buffer tube recoil recovery). Definitely not getting the Arad hear (AR-15 lower), but good to see recent Carmel vs conventional AR ergo comparison.

If the original iwi arad lower is proprietary, it could be legal in Canada