A very interesting read. A very nice looking rifle too. To bad so few were made 
http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/pedersen.html
http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/pedersen.html
Japanese pedersen rifle
- Thread starter f_soldaten04
- Start date
PerversPépère
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Shawinigan (Quebec)
Very peculiar and interesting piece! I didn't know there was a rifle making use of the toggle lock principle.
That rotary magazine gives it a little Johnson look. Is there anything on the rifle's functioning and accuracy?
pp.
That rotary magazine gives it a little Johnson look. Is there anything on the rifle's functioning and accuracy?
pp.
The rotary-magazine Johnson first appeared in 1937. As initially introduced, Johnson came in two models, the Model V having a drop-out Lee-type magazine with a Vertical feed, the Model R with the Rotary feed. The Japanese certainly would have known about the Johnson; it was offered commercially.
The 1941 Johnson, nearly identical to the 1937 rifles, was purchased for delivery to the Dutch forces in the East Indies, but delivery could not be made owing to the rapid Japanese occupation of that area. The rifles languished in storage until they were sequestered by the US Marine Corps, who had nothing better than Springfields, all production of the M-1 rifle bing contracted by the Army at that point. Shortly thereafter, the Japanese had all the experience they could ask for (from the wrong end, mind you) of the Johnson rotary magazine.
An interesting feature of the Johnson magazine was its fast loading WITH capability of being topped-up with a spare Special round. You loaded the Johnson with Springfield chargers, ran a round up the pipe and fired. Should you suddenly need a spotter round, an AP, Incendiary or Tracer, you just shoved that round into the feed gate, fired the round which was in the chamber..... and the rifle loaded your Special!
The Pederson rifle was rejected by the US military at the time of the adoption of the Garand, but the design was licensed for manufacture in England and rifles were made there and sold. There would have been no trouble for the Japanese to obtain a specimen or six.
The biggest problem the US faced in developing a semi-automatic rifle was the size, power and intensity of the .30-06 round. The '06 ran at 50 - 52000 psi chamber pressure, close to 10,000 pounds higher than most other rifles. Rifles which worked VERY well with lower pressures just could not handle the intensity of the '06 round. The .276 Pederson round ran at lower pressures and the rifle did very well; trying it at '06 pressures showed only that the delayed-blowback Pederson rifle and the '06 cartridge were incompatible in the extreme. The Pederson did, however, work very well at the lower pressures of the Japanese 7.7x58 round.
Combining the Pederson action with the Johnson magazine was uniquely Japanese and it was a darned good idea.
It would sure be nice to find a warehouse full of the things!
Yoo-hoo! NorINcooooooooh!
The 1941 Johnson, nearly identical to the 1937 rifles, was purchased for delivery to the Dutch forces in the East Indies, but delivery could not be made owing to the rapid Japanese occupation of that area. The rifles languished in storage until they were sequestered by the US Marine Corps, who had nothing better than Springfields, all production of the M-1 rifle bing contracted by the Army at that point. Shortly thereafter, the Japanese had all the experience they could ask for (from the wrong end, mind you) of the Johnson rotary magazine.
An interesting feature of the Johnson magazine was its fast loading WITH capability of being topped-up with a spare Special round. You loaded the Johnson with Springfield chargers, ran a round up the pipe and fired. Should you suddenly need a spotter round, an AP, Incendiary or Tracer, you just shoved that round into the feed gate, fired the round which was in the chamber..... and the rifle loaded your Special!
The Pederson rifle was rejected by the US military at the time of the adoption of the Garand, but the design was licensed for manufacture in England and rifles were made there and sold. There would have been no trouble for the Japanese to obtain a specimen or six.
The biggest problem the US faced in developing a semi-automatic rifle was the size, power and intensity of the .30-06 round. The '06 ran at 50 - 52000 psi chamber pressure, close to 10,000 pounds higher than most other rifles. Rifles which worked VERY well with lower pressures just could not handle the intensity of the '06 round. The .276 Pederson round ran at lower pressures and the rifle did very well; trying it at '06 pressures showed only that the delayed-blowback Pederson rifle and the '06 cartridge were incompatible in the extreme. The Pederson did, however, work very well at the lower pressures of the Japanese 7.7x58 round.
Combining the Pederson action with the Johnson magazine was uniquely Japanese and it was a darned good idea.
It would sure be nice to find a warehouse full of the things!
Yoo-hoo! NorINcooooooooh!
Smellie knows his stuff; he actually has a Johnson, I've handled it.
Pretty cool to handle a rare unit like that, most likely the rarest rifle type I've ever had in my hands
So you're saying you handled smellies johnson? LOL, sorry couldn't resist.
OK, that's a certified gotcha.
1st night shift in a while, with no sleep since 5:45 this morning, pretty fuzzy right now.
That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it, lol
Ole Smellie has also got a one-of-a-kind Italian semi-auto prototype rifle from pre-WW2. Like 8 units ever made.
Lugers, a Steyr-Hahn ( not that rare but still a very cool pistol), a P-38 ( which as he explained it are the parent mechanism for Beretta 92's). He can dis-assemble a Luger in about the time it takes to light a cigarette (probably with one hanging from his lip if I recall).
Very knowledgable fellow, I'm sad I am missing the Virden shoot.
1st night shift in a while, with no sleep since 5:45 this morning, pretty fuzzy right now.
That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it, lol
Ole Smellie has also got a one-of-a-kind Italian semi-auto prototype rifle from pre-WW2. Like 8 units ever made.
Lugers, a Steyr-Hahn ( not that rare but still a very cool pistol), a P-38 ( which as he explained it are the parent mechanism for Beretta 92's). He can dis-assemble a Luger in about the time it takes to light a cigarette (probably with one hanging from his lip if I recall).
Very knowledgable fellow, I'm sad I am missing the Virden shoot.
The Pederson also used a waxed cartridge to aid in extraction which did not help in competition with the Garand. The fluted chamber seen in the H&Ks was a later development.
There is a picture in the literature showing the open action hitting a US helmet and that did not help either.
Hatchers “Book of the Garand” has more information.
The British and US versions of the Pederson both used 10 shot clips,
(British terminology), but were not interchangeable.
There is a picture in the literature showing the open action hitting a US helmet and that did not help either.
Hatchers “Book of the Garand” has more information.
The British and US versions of the Pederson both used 10 shot clips,
(British terminology), but were not interchangeable.
- Location
- West Quebec
Oh I'm not touching that...
Not as quick a barrel change as a Bren. Don't know if spare barrels were part of the kit.
Limited use during WW2 by the Marines, early on, and by the joint Canadian/US force in Italy.
The tooling wound up in Israel, where it was used to manufacture the DROR.
Limited use during WW2 by the Marines, early on, and by the joint Canadian/US force in Italy.
The tooling wound up in Israel, where it was used to manufacture the DROR.
Rifle barrel would work okay on the Johnson LMG; there was quite a bit of parts interchangeability btw the Rifle and the MG.
Only TOOL required to swap barrels was a live round; job took under 10 seconds if you were good...... and had something to protect your hand from the hot tube.
First half-dozen DRORs were built in Montreal on duplicate tooling from Cranston, 3 guns each in 8x57 and .303. Tooling was paid for by Mrs. Meyerstein from Jewish Relief funds. Guns went ovr the border to be tried-out in Vermont, caught on the way back into Canada. By that time the tooling was on its way to Palestine (as it was then): "Agricultural Equipment". Must have been for Gopher removal.
Didn't know they had Gophers there!
Two models of Johnson LMG were 1941 and 1944.
The unique Johnson 8-lug Bolt survives in the Armalite series of rifles, including the C7. FG-42 copied the Johnson LMG trigger assembly: closed-bolt on SA, open bolt on FA. Worked real good.
Here you go, guys -
Only TOOL required to swap barrels was a live round; job took under 10 seconds if you were good...... and had something to protect your hand from the hot tube.
First half-dozen DRORs were built in Montreal on duplicate tooling from Cranston, 3 guns each in 8x57 and .303. Tooling was paid for by Mrs. Meyerstein from Jewish Relief funds. Guns went ovr the border to be tried-out in Vermont, caught on the way back into Canada. By that time the tooling was on its way to Palestine (as it was then): "Agricultural Equipment". Must have been for Gopher removal.
Didn't know they had Gophers there!
Two models of Johnson LMG were 1941 and 1944.
The unique Johnson 8-lug Bolt survives in the Armalite series of rifles, including the C7. FG-42 copied the Johnson LMG trigger assembly: closed-bolt on SA, open bolt on FA. Worked real good.
Here you go, guys -
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@ TOKGUY:
From reactions to the "meet & greet" we had here, I think it's pretty well settled: there WILL be one next Summer and it WILL be posted HERE in advance. This one we kept small, for reasons posted in that thread and because we didn't know if ANYONE would come.
There were less than 100 copies of the Armaguerra 39 built; about 7 or 8 survive today. There are 3 in Museums in Italy that I know of and there MIGHT be another in Canada (the one which Finn Nielsen wrote up, many years ago). They are pretty scarce. Plant was retooled for Carcano parts when the War started getting sticky. Mister Wolverine handled mine at the July 6 event and commented most favourably on it.... after I had already drooled most mercilessly all over his poor Solothurn! Proper gentleman, that man!
From reactions to the "meet & greet" we had here, I think it's pretty well settled: there WILL be one next Summer and it WILL be posted HERE in advance. This one we kept small, for reasons posted in that thread and because we didn't know if ANYONE would come.
There were less than 100 copies of the Armaguerra 39 built; about 7 or 8 survive today. There are 3 in Museums in Italy that I know of and there MIGHT be another in Canada (the one which Finn Nielsen wrote up, many years ago). They are pretty scarce. Plant was retooled for Carcano parts when the War started getting sticky. Mister Wolverine handled mine at the July 6 event and commented most favourably on it.... after I had already drooled most mercilessly all over his poor Solothurn! Proper gentleman, that man!
