K98 Sniper info needed

eltorro

eltorro

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I have a buddy who found a K98 for sale. The owner told him it's a sniper. He also mentioned that the mount is a dovetail machined in the receiver, and the scope is Russian. This one is over my head... I sugested it may very well not be a sniper at all, and I have no info on rearsenalled k98s.

I don't have any pics yet, and I told him to at least get the mfg codes... But just so we know ahead of time,....is is possible to be/have been a true sniper?

Thanks
 
Sounds kind of fishy to me, more than likely it's a bubba. It doesn't sound like any of the factory sniper mounting systems that the Germans used, though the ZF41 did use a dovetail type base on the rear sight base, not the receiver. Post some pics when you can and we can ID it for certain.
 
This is a vast area. Generally the Germans used only their own equipment, however they also used captured equipment as well. There is even a recorded instance of the Germans useing captured british Lee Enfields.

I recommend to you the book, "The German Sniper, 1914-1945"
By Peter R. Senich,
ISBN 0-87364-228-6

This book will give you everything you need to know.

I am not sure what he means by a 'dovetail'. Some of the mounting systems utalised a base which was dovetailed into the receiver ring. It was called the turrent mounting system and was considered the most accurete system. This system was used by the SS as well.

Good luck. Some photos would clarify the mounts. I am spectical about the scope. It would definetly not be standard equipment but would be a expident at best.
 
Got some pictures, but not the detailed ones I was hoping for.
Here they are:
S5000995.jpg

S5000994.jpg

S5000987.jpg

S5000984.jpg


Can know you guys can tell just by looking at these, but It'll be a couple of days befeore I can get more info.
 
That's a K98 that has had a commercial telescopic sight and see-thruogh rings installed. There's a picture of the real mounts here. Add the W's.
.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/18SMG'sRifles3.html
And some really surperb close up pictures of a Brit ruined rifle here. There's something screwy about this one though. No bayonet lug. Shows the real mounts extremely well.
.deactivated-guns.co.uk/detail/k98_sniper.htm
 
Some more info on the rifle.... I found out that there were two factories in Romania that arsenalled k98ks. One of them modified Vz24 from Brno to snipers. They used regular infantry k98 that they modified. They also modified pre-war contract k98 from Germany.
I am not aware of any markings that would certify that it was a "factory " job vs a bubba job.... unless the factory marked them with their innitial stamp.
Is there any pertinence in what I found out, or not?
 
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eltorro said:
Some more info on the rifle.... I found out that there were two factories in Romania that arsenalled k98ks. One of them modified Vz24 from Brno to snipers. They used regular infantry k98 that they modified. They also modified pre-war contract k98 from Germany.
I am not aware of any markings that would certify that it was a "factory " job vs a bubba job.... unless the factory marked them with their innitial stamp.
Is there any pertinence in what I found out, or not?
Click to expand...


I have Heinrich Himler's K98k in my basement - care to buy it? (it's a byf44). Impeccable provenance! A guy at a gunshow recognized it RIGHT AWAY as the mismatched rifle his uncle's gunshow buddy described hearing about from a GI who was present at Himler's surrender to Vichy French forces in Sudan.

A bargain at only $1500!!!
 
eltorro said:
Some more info on the rifle.... I found out that there were two factories in Romania that arsenalled k98ks. One of them modified Vz24 from Brno to snipers. They used regular infantry k98 that they modified. They also modified pre-war contract k98 from Germany.
I am not aware of any markings that would certify that it was a "factory " job vs a bubba job.... unless the factory marked them with their innitial stamp.
Is there any pertinence in what I found out, or not?
Click to expand...


Regarding the Vz24: yes, they did modify them (and use them even today but for scout training and such), but according to my sources in more than one factory and in at least one military arsenal, but not Cugir - which is not an arsenal, but a factory. Contrary to popular belief and bulls**t on gun websites, Cugir was never a true "arsenal" (according to the Romanian military structure, it wasn't allowed to "store" more than a minimum quantity of guns).

Regarding the K98: I'm not sure what "pre-war contract k98 from Germany" means. Romania, according to my sources, in spite of the fact that they were Germany's allies in WW2, did not extensively use that gun as a service rifle. I also did not find any reference of a susbstantial use of k98 in that country in the immediate after war era.


In any of the theoretical cases, it's highly un-likely that the gun went thru Romanian hands and made it back into the West with whatever scope romanians put on it.
 
The arseal I was talking about is not Cugir.... you're right that is a factory... but "Copsa Mica" arsenal. The scope appears to be a 8x russian. They arsenaled the Vz24 and some pre-war k98.... not necesarily K98k... Romania fought in WWI as well, on the winning side. The rifles modified by Cugir were mostly rechambered to 30-06 and many sold as hunting rifles (Dragana). The mounts are not something to talk nice about.

Who said the rifle made it out West? My buddy found it boar-slaying in the East ;).
I'm sure you knowledgeable gentlemen know a lot more than me, that's why I'm afraid not to make an ass out of myself. This is however all the info my buddy could find. There's almost none on the web.
 
Claven2 said:
I have Heinrich Himler's K98k in my basement - care to buy it? (it's a byf44). Impeccable provenance! A guy at a gunshow recognized it RIGHT AWAY as the mismatched rifle his uncle's gunshow buddy described hearing about from a GI who was present at Himler's surrender to Vichy French forces in Sudan.

A bargain at only $1500!!!
Click to expand...

One question keeps popping out in my mind, though..... If you had Himmler's rifle, would you sell it? :confused:
 
k98sniper

Wow! For a second there I thought those were Zarc after market rings, but they are'nt even them.... sorry dude you were correct in that this sure ain't no orig k98 sniper..
 
eltorro said:
One question keeps popping out in my mind, though..... If you had Himmler's rifle, would you sell it? :confused:
Click to expand...

Actually, Himmler was a pencil-necked weenie that used to complain and whine about the weight of his pistol on the rare occasions he had to wear it for show when he was running around Pomerania and East Prussia pretending to be a General in the spring of 1945 "leading" Army Group Vistula.

I doubt he would ever have even lifted a rifle throughout the entire 3rd Reich regime ;)

All I'm saying is that your K98 sniper is wearing post-war east block "inexpensive" commercial see-through mounts and a lower-end (from the look of it) Russian scope. No military would field it like that. Simply put - some enterprising hunter/shooter did it after it stopped serving any military ;) Don't pay sniper money for it!!!
 
I too would rather have Wittman's belt than Heinrich's rifle.... but it bears on the idea of selling something like that.

The asking price was under 1000 euros and my buddy considered it as a hunting rifle as well. He just needs to be able to prove the seller that this is not a true sniper, and get the price where it should be. I'll pass all the info to him and he'll decide. I kept looking for info about the whole eastern european after-war transformation. Those who know are not saying anything, because they can afford to buy these rifles without having worry about tomorrow... and have consequently no interest in raising the collectors' interest in them. Maybe more will pop out in North America, once the old arsenals are liquidated.
Thank you , and if you find out more related to this subject, I'll be more happy to get educated on the matter.
 
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eltorro said:
The arseal I was talking about is not Cugir.... you're right that is a factory... but "Copsa Mica" arsenal. The scope appears to be a 8x russian. They arsenaled the Vz24 and some pre-war k98.... not necesarily K98k... Romania fought in WWI as well, on the winning side. The rifles modified by Cugir were mostly rechambered to 30-06 and many sold as hunting rifles (Dragana). The mounts are not something to talk nice about.

Who said the rifle made it out West? My buddy found it boar-slaying in the East ;).
I'm sure you knowledgeable gentlemen know a lot more than me, that's why I'm afraid not to make an ass out of myself. This is however all the info my buddy could find. There's almost none on the web.
Click to expand...


I'm not "knowledgeable", I'm afraid not to make an ass out of myself, as well:) :runaway: but I will try to tell you what I can, although I doubt it will help you find the origins or history of that rifle.


I happen to have access to some info from Romania's military industry (not much). One by one:

Copsa Mica was (is) a small maintenace centre (refurbishing, small repairs, maintenance, not calibration, not testing, mostly infantry firearms and small artilery, storage, depository, not armory). I'm not sure it is considered "arsenal" in there, but it doesn't matter.
There are many small "arsenals" like it and the Vz24's were scoped in few of them.

Romania in ww1 used quite a few types of rifles and calibers, including 6.5 Steyr (that's correct, against the Austro-Hungarians, the empire who happened to design this caliber), some french caliber as well, very few 303's, and some others, but I'm not aware of 98's or anything in 8x57.

Do you know when the mod to 30-06 was made?
If it was between the wars, 30-06 was a very odd caliber in those times in that part of the world, and I find it very-very hard to believe.
"Dragana" does not pop out in my data base in the romanian section. It has slavic connotations, but sure, theoreticaly it can be something named between the wars in Romania.
After the ww2, they used romanian national names for civilian guns (Oltenia, Muntenia, Transilvania, Mihai Viteazul, Vlad, Cugir, Ramnic, Bucegi, Valeni, etc.), or communist names (1 Mai, 23 August, Republica, National, Grivita, etc.)

But they were not chambered in western hunting cartridges. Actualy, there were incredibly few people trusted by the commie gov. with anything more than a 22 or scattergun in Romania before 1990. Wild boar was hunted with slug out of 12ga shotguns, popular named "brenic" (after "Brenekke") but in reality they were hand reloads using machined slugs, sometimes with steel pin and bottom. Target and hunting rifles were made mostly in 22 rimfire, probably Short and LR (called 5,6mm) and 7.62x54 (the tooling for 8x57 barrels is quite different from 7.62x54).
I don't find any kind of info and I don't see any room in the romanian post-war gun industry for manufacturing either 8x57 or 30-06.
They had, however, an abundance of already made Vz24's in 8x57 and Geco (please google the name in case you are not familiar with it) in 22, wich they kept re&re-ing (and some scoped). They had/have I.O.R. industries (today sold in the west as "Valdada", as you know). The romanian military rings, bases, rails look way different.

I don't want to piss on your parade, but it doesn't smell romanian "factory" work on that gun.
I wish you luck and I hope you find the info you need regarding that rifle.
 
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