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sportee

sportee

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Ok, just got off the phone with a tech at the CFC.

...this is what I was told this week...

-The CFC is referring only to the Criminal Code definition for antique firearms...nothing else. It seems some are confused about what the definition is...

-Once a firearm has been lettered it is an antique from that point on...the letter will follow the gun and remains in force until the gun is destroyed.

-Canada Customs has been considering the new antique letters as "fakes" lately. Thats why some of you are getting guns held up or siezed. Have them call the CFC to clarify. "once the letter is issued that means that it has been reviewed and approved by the CFC"


EDIT:

To clarify here is a piece from a later post:

Remember...Im just reporting what I was told this week

The idea wasnt that the letter is required it is just that once the letter is issued it stays with the gun.

The other thing about records...I asked her about that one...She said they keep ALL records. So a copy of every letter that is issued goes on your file. I guess if they ever decide to stiffen the antique laws they'll think ive got one huge pile of guns. For all of the letters that I have requested Ive only ever actually bought maybe 1/3 of the revolvers they were requested for.

As for the "fake letters" She just said that the new letters that they are issuing are causing a few problems...specifically with customs who thinks they are fake (most probably just because they are different than the ones they have been seeing for years)

Remember that its the Criminal Code definition that counts...I dont think the RCMP are capable of making a change to the Criminal Code.

I think that the feds, knowing full well that the letter is just a courtesy and that it should follow the gun as it is bought and sold, are just using it as a tool to get an antique into its system...not necessarily to assume that I am the owner of all of the guns that I have had lettered...

Since there have been quite a few folks jumping on the antique letter issue...

...THE CFC NEVER SAID THE ANTIQUE LETTER WAS REQUIRED...
 
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Sounds like your getting a B.S. story, unless its a new policy.
I haven't had one of my antiques lettered before importing.
A letter dosn't MAKE the gun an antique. There is no requirement for a letter.
An antique gun is simply one that fits the description. The CC says nothing about a letter, IIRC.
 
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I think its B.S too. Im sure Sportee is Reporting what he was Told BUT think about it.
Anyone who uses a Fake CFC letter is gona get Caught or at least investigated,
Unless there useing a Fake name and post office box but even so the Customs or Cops could catch em Easy.
Only a true Chimpanzee would try such a stunt.
There would be a Slew of Charges.

Fakeing and Official RCMP Letter is probebly worse than importing and ilegal gun.

I have talked to alot of Customs Officers not one ever said were getting Fake letters as and Excuse to hold up my Guns.
Its usally cause there Swamped.
Im not saying its Never Happened but Really how hard would it be to catch the ones doing this. :rolleyes:
I have had a Vancouver Customs Officer (a Woman but a very nice one) Check my RCMP letter by Simplely phoneing CFC and checking it out.
She dont do it every time but they can check easy enough if they wanted to.
 
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Remember you don't have to have a letter to own a antique gun I only have them for some of the ones I've imported or the ones that are going to Serial # for age . It is a form of registration they keep all records . just that when you sell it they loose track then but if it turns up used in a crime it is in the system so keep track of who you sell the papered ones to. The new letters come without you name on them so when you sell it you can pass the paper on without having to cross your name off. For example the 32-44 target I purchased the seller told me it had been DE-registered but could not find the papers. I e-mailed a tech. the info and serial # they found it and sent me a copy and you can bet that they recorded who owns it now.
 
DEZ said:
Remember you don't have to have a letter to own a antique gun I only have them for some of the ones I've imported or the ones that are going to Serial # for age . It is a form of registration they keep all records . just that when you sell it they loose track then but if it turns up used in a crime it is in the system so keep track of who you sell the papered ones to. The new letters come without you name on them so when you sell it you can pass the paper on without having to cross your name off. For example the 32-44 target I purchased the seller told me it had been DE-registered but could not find the papers. I e-mailed a tech. the info and serial # they found it and sent me a copy and you can bet that they recorded who owns it now.
Click to expand...

Yes but it can be sold 16 times with that same letter. So the way your Saying this is the Hunderds of Letters i Requested on guns that i never Bought (theres alot) that they will Asume i own all of them.

I used to Request letters before i won the guns i bid on so i didnt have to wait so long. If i didnt win it i Filed it keeping the Letter for future arguements that model ECT was Antique.

I guess that IF a gun you sold ser # and model came up as a crime gun they might give you a call asking if you still had the gun or if it had been sold lent or given away.
I only get them CFC Letters as Most people buying the guns like them,
so they can show them to a CO or Cop to give the Antique Status some Backing.
Also for importing makes that less hassel.

But People makeing Fake RCMP Letters to get in some illegal Guns?
sounds kinda iffy to me.

My Letters always come with my name on them even the newer ones.
Ive seen 3 diffrent types of letters tho.
 
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dingus said:
Yes but it can be sold 16 times with that same letter. So the way your Saying this is the Hunderds of Letters i Requested on guns that i never Bought (theres alot) that they will Asume i own all of them.

I used to Request letters before i won the guns i bid on so i didnt have to wait so long. If i didnt win it i Filed it keeping the Letter for future arguements that model ECT was Antique.

I guess that IF a gun you sold ser # and model came up as a crime gun they might give you a call asking if you still had the gun or if it had been sold lent or given away.
I only get them CFC Letters as Most people buying the guns like them,
so they can show them to a CO or Cop to give the Antique Status some Backing.
Also for importing makes that less hassel.

But People makeing Fake RCMP Letters to get in some illegal Guns?
sounds kinda iffy to me.

My Letters always come with my name on them even the newer ones.
Ive seen 3 diffrent types of letters tho.
Click to expand...
I don't know if they'll asume that you own them all otherwise you are probably in the arsenal class;) just that they keep your name on file as they person who de-registered it .
But people faking antique letters sounds Little silly to me but we're the honest ones who register are guns and follow the letter of the law and try to do everything right and don't understand the mentality of those who do not but I suspect it is just some ones opinion that this might be happening
 
Well Deregistering it i can see them keeping that info as that was a Restricted or Prohibed handgun in Canada untill it was re classified as a antique.
They would keep the de Registration info to cover there own butts.

But to keep a record of ever Letter just Requested on every Antique without Knowing if the person requesting it even has it.
I doubt that.
I dont really care Anyway as DEZ said were the honest ones.
I think CFC just does the Letters to be Helpfull.

There helpfull to me i know that much for certin.
If they kept on Record i collect Antique Revolvers they can fill there boots.
They know i do anyway.
 
My bet is Sportee just ran into one of those rare "GEMS" that we have all seen who doesn't really know the laws but certainly isn't afraid to make them up knowing 9 times out of 10 no one will challenge them on it.
 
Smokepole said:
I doubt they keep the info.
Would a freedom of information search would answer that question?
Click to expand...

They most certainly do keep information in their data base, and here's the proof:

This summer I sold an antique sixgun and requested an antique letter for the benefit of the buyer. I received an email from CFC stating that if I was importing this sixgun, an antique letter would be issued right away, but if I had purchased this antique sixgun in Canada they wanted to know where I had obtained it. Knowing that the fellow I'd bought it from does have a good working relationship with CFC, I supplied them with the name. They then responded with the following ....

"Your request has been processed and the "Antique" letter has been mailed to your last known address, as requested in your original email.

Our concern was that we had duplicated information on our records regarding the make, model and serial of the firearm. However since you've confirmed the historical chain of ownership, as best you could, we had no hesitation in issuing such a letter declaring the Antique status of the firearm mentioned below."

From what I can make of this, their records indicated that two different people had this antique sixgun (although that would not be surprising if someone earlier had also requested a letter for the same gun). I had some additional correspondence with them, indicating that I had requested letters for antiques that I never owned and that keeping records of who owned what would very rapidly become hopelessly obsolete. However, you can bet the farm that they keep a record of every person who has ever requested an antique letter. In other words, they have a database of everyone who requests a letter. I also expect they check that person's name against their records to see what comes up (i.e., criminal record). I don't know anyone with a criminal record who has tried to obtain an antique letter, but I imagine that there may be some red flags raised at CFC.

Incidentally, the last two antique letters I have received have my name and address on a separate sheet, so that the antique letter itself shows no name, but is attached only to the antique. This makes it great for permanently accompanying the antique without having your name and address traveling with it.
 
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Perhaps I need a tinfoil hat, but sounds like the RCMP are maintaining a semi registration database on antique guns in the hopes of being able to declare more guns as not antique

cheers mooncoon
 
Do they keep antique leter correspondence? I would think so. When I got my 900+ pages from my access to information request there was everything in it including requests for information and complaints about their web site.
 
Wow did I ever stir things up here...

Remember...Im just reporting what I was told this week

The idea wasnt that the letter is required it is just that once the letter is issued it stays with the gun.

The other thing about records...I asked her about that one...She said they keep ALL records. So a copy of every letter that is issued goes on your file. I guess if they ever decide to stiffen the antique laws they'll think ive got one huge pile of guns. For all of the letters that I have requested Ive only ever actually bought maybe 1/3 of the revolvers they were requested for.

As for the "fake letters" She just said that the new letters that they are issuing are causing a few problems...specifically with customs who thinks they are fake (most probably just because they are different than the ones they have been seeing for years)

Remember that its the Criminal Code definition that counts...I dont think the RCMP are capable of making a change to the Criminal Code.

I think that the feds, knowing full well that the letter is just a courtesy and that it should follow the gun as it is bought and sold, are just using it as a tool to get an antique into its system...not necessarily to assume that I am the owner of all of the guns that I have had lettered...
 
sportee said:
Wow did I ever stir things up here...

Remember...Im just reporting what I was told this week

The idea wasnt that the letter is required it is just that once the letter is issued it stays with the gun.

The other thing about records...I asked her about that one...She said they keep ALL records. So a copy of every letter that is issued goes on your file. I guess if they ever decide to stiffen the antique laws they'll think ive got one huge pile of guns. For all of the letters that I have requested Ive only ever actually bought maybe 1/3 of the revolvers they were requested for.

As for the "fake letters" She just said that the new letters that they are issuing are causing a few problems...specifically with customs who thinks they are fake (most probably just because they are different than the ones they have been seeing for years)

Remember that its the Criminal Code definition that counts...I dont think the RCMP are capable of making a change to the Criminal Code.

I think that the feds, knowing full well that the letter is just a courtesy and that it should follow the gun as it is bought and sold, are just using it as a tool to get an antique into its system...not necessarily to assume that I am the owner of all of the guns that I have had lettered...
Click to expand...

Frist off you always Stir things up LOL
This sounds more like whats up, your Frist post didnt Explain things as good as this post.
I have Told the Tecs i deal with that ALOT of the guns i have Requested Letters for never Entered Canada.

Anyway the Simple thing for Customs to do if there not sure about a letter is Phone CFC there # is right on the letters + theres only about 2 People there that Sign the letters.
 
sportee said:
Remember that its the Criminal Code definition that counts...I dont think the RCMP are capable of making a change to the Criminal Code.
.
Click to expand...

That is only partially true; the RCMP administer the registration system which means they can ignore the written law and administer their own policy instead. This means that they can refuse to deregister a valid antique or block a legal transfer if it is against their internal policy. I have personally had a luger frame transfer blocked until it was rebarreled because they said it was policy that it reverted to prohib status with the barrel removed rather than being a frame only. (I am talking about short barrel removed and destroyed, long barrel installed gun becomes restricted then long barrel removed and the frame becomes prohibited)

The problem with these policies is that they may or may not stand up in court depending on which judge you get. An anti gun judge can take the approach that it is for the common good to rule on policy rather than on law.

cheers mooncoon
 
dingus said:
Frist off you always Stir things up LOL
This sounds more like whats up, your Frist post didnt Explain things as good as this post.
I have Told the Tecs i deal with that ALOT of the guns i have Requested Letters for never Entered Canada.

Anyway the Simple thing for Customs to do if there not sure about a letter is Phone CFC there # is right on the letters + theres only about 2 People there that Sign the letters.
Click to expand...

I posted that thread about 5 minutes before leaving work for the day...sorry I was a bit vague. I like to get discussions going...Sometines not in the direction I intend though...
 
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