Lathe on Kijiji

Don't get me wrong but there isn't a lot wrong with threading on the tail stock as long as everything is locked up properly. I have personally had more than one issue with an off center of axis bore. On a blank from Hart that I chucked up in the head through the spindle/spider. Everything dialed in beautifully on both ends to .0001 but something just didn't look right. I used a spud in the end protruding over the bed and sure enough the bore was .005 off center. I have absolutely no idea how that could occur but there it was, right in front of me. I ended up taking off the chuck and putting on the face plate and center. Then with a dog leg clamped on tight and the tail stock equipped with a live center, proceeded to cut the threads at the tail stock, which gave me a set of threads that were cut to the axis of the bore. This could easily have screwed up what turned out to be one of the best match rifles I owned. I can see this happening to a hammer forged barrel but I believe Hart cuts their rifling.

I could have just sent the barrel back to Hart and they may or may not have replaced it. By being able to set it up between centers I saved a month or more of time waiting. Now, when I turn down a blank to the dimensions I want, I check both ends of the barrel by chucking up one end and running the live center of the tail stock into the bore and checking the concentricity with a dial gage over the live center. I have only had one other barrel that had the bore off center and that was on a rimfire take off barrel.

That's why I recommend a long bed if you have the room. Small hobby lathes are OK for small light work but when push comes to shove often the money saved can be lost on just one project and it won't even be the fault of the lathe or operator. A match grade Hart barrel blank runs close to $600C right now.
 
tiriaq said:
A SB heavy 10 is a dandy gunsmithing lathe. The spindle bore diameter is a real advantage.
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Yeah, but in 25+ years of actively looking for and at lathes, I have never actually seen one in the flesh, so to speak. Have seen a LOT of 9 inch SB lathes, but without exception, all those that I found that were actually for sale, were clapped junk at quality prices. I have seen a few GOOD SB9 lathes, but they were in fellows' shops, and not on the market. I know they are out there, just never crossed paths with them.

I'll also add in that condition, not brand name, is the key feature to be looking for. Figure that the average 10L was bought by someone that was looking to make a living with it, and worked it, plus that the lathe is like to be 50 years old. That's a LOT of work time!

Good machine, if you can find one AND it's in decent condition. Otherwise, the best advice I have from my experiences with South Bend lathes, is, don't get sucked in by the brand name over the condition.

But the Company is still in business, you say? Nope. South Bend went the way of the dodo a while back. The guy who owns Grizzly Tools bought the name, and is marketing it as the 'high end' of his imported tool line.

My experience has been that folks want an awful pile of money for a truly awful condition lathe, based, usually, on the preponderance of "Old American Iron is SUPERIOR!" posts that are around the web. A 1 and 3/8 inch spindle bore is pretty easy to find these days and there are a LOT of lathes out there with larger. 1 and 3/8 inch is what you need to be able to mount a 5C collet (about the most common and cheapest to source size) in spindle directly.

Cheers
Trev
 
trevj said:
Yeah, but in 25+ years of actively looking for and at lathes, I have never actually seen one in the flesh, so to speak. Have seen a LOT of 9 inch SB lathes, but without exception, all those that I found that were actually for sale, were clapped junk at quality prices. I have seen a few GOOD SB9 lathes, but they were in fellows' shops, and not on the market. I know they are out there, just never crossed paths with them.

I'll also add in that condition, not brand name, is the key feature to be looking for. Figure that the average 10L was bought by someone that was looking to make a living with it, and worked it, plus that the lathe is like to be 50 years old. That's a LOT of work time!

Good machine, if you can find one AND it's in decent condition. Otherwise, the best advice I have from my experiences with South Bend lathes, is, don't get sucked in by the brand name over the condition.

But the Company is still in business, you say? Nope. South Bend went the way of the dodo a while back. The guy who owns Grizzly Tools bought the name, and is marketing it as the 'high end' of his imported tool line.

My experience has been that folks want an awful pile of money for a truly awful condition lathe, based, usually, on the preponderance of "Old American Iron is SUPERIOR!" posts that are around the web. A 1 and 3/8 inch spindle bore is pretty easy to find these days and there are a LOT of lathes out there with larger. 1 and 3/8 inch is what you need to be able to mount a 5C collet (about the most common and cheapest to source size) in spindle directly.

Cheers
Trev
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When I was shopping for mine, I brought a test bar with me to measure runout. Frankly, 80% of the ones I looked at had minimal wear and were in nice shape. In the end, I found mine in Toronto and had it freighted to Ottawa.

The trick is to find one that was not used for series production, but they are phenomenal machines (especially the 10L) that have tons of aftermarket support and entire forums devoted to reconditioning and using these lathes.

A good SB is truly a great tool, there is a reason they are so sought after - and it's not just brand name appeal.
 
I have had quite a few Southbends from 9`` to 15``. They are a 1930`s design, and parts are readily available on E bay. Tiraq`s SM 13x40 is a dandy gunsmithing lathe. Most professional gunsmiths use Taiwanese or Chinese 13x40 lathes.
 
Cleftwynd said:
I wonder what kind of support there is for an older LeBlond 16-48 might be a 60" even.
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The good news is that unless you crash the carriage into the headstock it's not likely that you'll ever need any parts.

I keep seeing reports from you guys other than Trev that make it sound like most of the old lathes out there are in lovely condition. My own experience in looking over older machines is more a match with Trev's findings where the beds are badly worn and there's lots of dings and other heavy damage overall on the machines. But here again this may be related to the end of the country that I'm living on.

There's so much to look at on an old lathe. Things like checking the back gears for any broken teeth. The head stock bearings for play or wear. The wear on the bed and a host of other issues.

It's a daunting list even for someone that knows their lathes let alone a newbie that doesn't know what to look for.
 
Claven2 said:
When I was shopping for mine, I brought a test bar with me to measure runout. Frankly, 80% of the ones I looked at had minimal wear and were in nice shape. In the end, I found mine in Toronto and had it freighted to Ottawa.

The trick is to find one that was not used for series production, but they are phenomenal machines (especially the 10L) that have tons of aftermarket support and entire forums devoted to reconditioning and using these lathes.

A good SB is truly a great tool, there is a reason they are so sought after - and it's not just brand name appeal.
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Exactly. "The trick is...." That's the real problem, innit?

I understand that well enough. But the brand name on it drives the price of junk, up to the price of good stuff. And newbs that don't know any better get suckered in to buying junk at good stuff prices, then spending their time rebuilding, rather than using, their lathes. Gotta decide if you want a hobby of rebuilding, or using the tools. That there are whole Forums dedicated to rebuilding them, pretty much makes my point that there are far too many guys out there that got stuck with a lemon. Some of the guys that ended up there, knew what they were getting in to, most didn't.

There are WAY too many guys out there that bought a lathe that was 'rebuilt' with a shiny coat of gray paint, and paid what should have got them a good machine.

South Bend lathes are no better or worse than a lot of other machines. They were a pretty good buy back in the day, but that was a long long time ago. By the time they were heading down the pipes into their final auction sale, they were charging over $20K+ for a new made version of their 60+ year old design. They failed to evolve, and died off. This was the same failure to evolve that killed off Myford as well. Modern wages, modern prices, ancient technology. Better stuff was available for the same money, so folks stopped buying.

My experience with South Bends, has been that the good ones are truly the exception. I have seen and used a couple decent 9 inch SB's, lots of crappy ones, and checked out a couple larger models (12-14 inch range, suffering from small spindle bores and very low top speeds) but as I say, never actually seen a 10L other than online. It ain't worth a pinch of coon sh*t, if all you can find is a picture of one. I did look, too, back when I knew little enough to get suckered by the afore-mentioned "Old American Iron is Best!" line. It only is, if you happen to live where there are lots to choose from, and they are undervalued in the local market, as they seem to be in the Northeast parts of the US. Not coincidentally, where most of the afore-mentioned 'preachers of the Faith' seem to live.

By the time I lived out where I had ready access to that lot, I had pretty much worked out the differences between what I had heard and what I had seen, and had educated myself to the point that I no longer got brain-locked on having to have one particular brand or another, as well as starting to understand that there were a great number of lathes and other machine tools out there that were not commonly known names, but which were far higher quality than a South Bend ever was when new, and far more modern and functional, with such amenities as spindle speeds that you couldn't get on a plain bearing lathe, and inch/metric gearboxes as standard equipment.

Not to diss on South Bend, entirely, but there has been an awful pile of hooey spread about the web on the matter, and name counts for less than condition does.

I will say too, that the crappiest beat up old lathe that is actually on your shop floor, is still better than the shiniest picture of the 'bestest lathe ever'. Every tool has it's strong and weak points, and the guy that uses it is what makes the parts.

Cheers
Trev
 
Ok, well southbound bias aside, put me in the column of users that very much likes and personally uses SB machinery. Very satisfied.

FWIW, My Southbend replaced two "new lathes". One was a generic 12x36 taiwanese machine from KBC Tools and the other was a 10x36 Chinese machine from Busy Bee. The south bend was superior to both, so they were long ago sold. Good riddance.

I still run a Chinese knee mill, but I had to put A LOT of work into it to get it to work reasonably close to a what a nice Bridgeport would do.

All my Asian stuff was bought brand new, and was very affordable. For a reason. The quality was sketchy.

YMMV.

Edit: By the way, I fit my SB with a 3ph motor and a Variable Frequency Drive - made it a FAR better machine than it was.
 
Years ago I had a 16" SB with 57" centers. Made 1932. Nice machine, wouldn't mind if I still had it.
I bought my mill/drill, Atlas shaper, power hacksaw, Lincoln stick welder, bench grinder from an estate. There was a 9" SB, but it was spoken for. Basement shop, it had been mounted on poured concrete pedestals. Bought new in 1948, used carefully as a hobby machine. It was a good one.
 
Claven2 said:
Ok, well southbound bias aside, put me in the column of users that very much likes and personally uses SB machinery. Very satisfied.

FWIW, My Southbend replaced two "new lathes". One was a generic 12x36 taiwanese machine from KBC Tools and the other was a 10x36 Chinese machine from Busy Bee. The south bend was superior to both, so they were long ago sold. Good riddance.

I still run a Chinese knee mill, but I had to put A LOT of work into it to get it to work reasonably close to a what a nice Bridgeport would do.

All my Asian stuff was bought brand new, and was very affordable. For a reason. The quality was sketchy.

YMMV.

Edit: By the way, I fit my SB with a 3ph motor and a Variable Frequency Drive - made it a FAR better machine than it was.
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Yeah, I know very well what you mean when you say that you were glad to be rid of the cheap lathes. The best thing I have to say about the really low end metal lathes, is that they are responsible for driving the prices of used, pretty decent kit, down into the price range that makes them affordable to own as a hobby interest. They also limit the interest in some of the better quality used gear, as guys look at the prices asked, and balk, as they can buy a "New" machine for that, not realizing that they are comparing a machine that is selling now for, say, $2500, with a used version of a lathe that sold new 20 years ago for $40K, but is now priced at $3K. They were not built to anywhere near the same standard.

If you dig through old magazines at all, you eventually conclude that the Hobby aimed products, were mostly always crap from the get go. I have a collection of Model Engineer magazine that goes back to the very late 1890's, and the lathes that guys used to make some pretty stellar models, were pretty crude, and really lacking in amenities even a cheap Chinese lathe takes for granted. Details like a compound in addition to the cross slide, and graduations on the dials, ferinstance.

We have it really good, these days.

Cheers
Trev
 
I lucked out getting a SB 13x40 lathe in excellent condition in Hartford. CT. Essentially used little and sat 12yrs unused before I bought it.
Used in a hospital maintenance shop and and only one guy had the key to access it. I paid $3000 for it then and put it on the back of my truck and headed home.
Found a Bridgeport J-head in Oshawa, ON in what appeared filthy condition, but mainly used as a drill press. What I discovered was the ways were in excellent shape and the head not worn out. $1000 for it. It pays to know what your looking for and condition.
Trevj is correct about finding them in NE USA or Toronto area much easier. I also saw a lot of junk too well worn out for the same money or more.
 
This is the same thing for ANY used item. Know what to look for and don't overpay for junk. It's not exclusive to metal-working machinery.
 
just for those who are interested in incredible high end lathes. Gunsmith David Henry recently bought a Monarch 10EE that came out of the Canadian sub program. It came with about every accessory Monarch makes for it including the Monarch cabinet.
 
Some of the machine tools out of the National Research Council shops have been showing up on Crown Assets lately. Monarchs, Dean Smith and Grace, Hardinge, Smart and Brown, and a bunch of other names that pretty much all worshiped at the altar of "more iron is a good thing if you want an accurate machine tool".

There were a few machines out of the Royal Canadian Mint, in the last couple years, too.

Sad thing is, a lot of the really good machines that are ending up sold, are going for sale because some guy that does not know any better decided that "it was old, and we can buy a new one", without any smeck of how hard and expensive, it is, to find a decent quality, accurate, manual machine tool these days.

Then, there is having to deal with PWGSC, too <spit> who will happily ensure that the lowest bidder gets the sale, even if the goods won't work.

Cheers
Trev
 
Most interesting thread.
I'm killing the spring working at a Salvage yard that is likely 50 years old. I pass by big old lathes and mills every day. The other day we had a ' City ' truck and trailer drop of a large turbo charged engine ( skid mounted back up generator ) that had a couple hundred hours..." Natural gas, have to update "... silly sh*t's from the ' The City ' That may seem random, but we receive industrial stuff from machine shops on a random time line.
I'll start taking snaps of the stuff that we have kicking around.
 
When ex-employer closed (production moved to mexico) I had the opportunity to buy:

942VS_HR_1885.jpg

KC-40HS-2012-H.jpg

1334.jpg

KC-122FC-big.jpg


With tooling, lots of mitutoyo measuring Equipment

All in superb condition for 2200$ Total........ That was a deal I couldn'T pass
 
tokguy said:
Most interesting thread.
I'm killing the spring working at a Salvage yard that is likely 50 years old. I pass by big old lathes and mills every day. The other day we had a ' City ' truck and trailer drop of a large turbo charged engine ( skid mounted back up generator ) that had a couple hundred hours..." Natural gas, have to update "... silly sh*t's from the ' The City ' That may seem random, but we receive industrial stuff from machine shops on a random time line.
I'll start taking snaps of the stuff that we have kicking around.
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sounds like a money making opportunity
 
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