Lead free indoor handgun range?

Hmmph..... I thought I'd put in a bit about non toxic .22lr but it's not there. Wrongbuttonitis strikes again I guess.

There's some links I found about non toxic rimfire ammo but I don't see any for sale at the few places I looked for quickly. But I didn't dig deep though.

However for a "lead free" range I think you may be jumping the gun a little. In a few years I suspect that lead free ammo and components will become more common. And when that happens it'll be a lot easier to host a lead free indoor range. At the moment though it would be pretty tough.

As that zinc alloy for wheel weights has shown we CAN manage without lead. It'll take some re-designing and other work but it is possible. Just expensive and difficult at this point. And maybe not possible YET for some calibers and styles of ammo. But over the next few months to few years? I bet we see it become more common. And shortly after that the price of the options drop so they are in line with or not much more than today's lead based ammo.

It would definetly be a first in Canada but they do exist in the states, not talking about the california lead ban for hunting in the condor protection zone. The US and Norway military also switched to lead free for their small arms NATO rounds, for now in the US Army it's only the M4 carbines that are lead free. They do have significant buying power to make this economical which no private corporation can match. I know of a few MFG but it's easier to find I'm rifle rounds due to the Cali condor zone, for handgun type rounds I have found several, Hornady, C.O.P, and a few other companies. There are larger lead free suppliers Cesaroni being one, but I haven't established if they only supply military or military/public.

Realistically making a jacketed round should involve more machining and longer production so if there are high volume producers making NATO rounds they should have an edge in price vs the specialty ammo mfg catering to California.

Reduced lead using jacked/plated ammo for indoor use is also appealing since it would reduce significant dust leaving just the vapor from the primer at the firing line which can be quickly dissipated with a air curtain of sufficient CFM.

I'm sure like you said over the years it will become more common especially if copper stays as cheap as it been past decade. But once operating with lead there is no point going lead free since the facility will already be contaminated to some degree. I'm California they also had some unintended consequences with different non lead handgun loads from bronze alloy (mostly copper with zinc) that had AP properties and were taken off market.
 
Yes these are the exact systems we are considering. Full air curtain from behind the line and the snail style deceleration chamber with plumbed HVAC on each lanes trap to mitigate dust from impact and pull it into the trap and into the hepa filter. Overhead target retrival with digital target projection with the option of standard paper.

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No. The Savage Snail is wet. There is Zero dust at the trap and no need for a HVAC system there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgx5bivAiuU

I have not been involved with these for 20 years. I assume they still make them. They were made in Mississauga.

I found this on Google. It is not written by Savage.

"The “wet-to-floor” system where stopped being built by Savage over 12 years ago. Now only the upper half of the ramp, and the deceleration chamber is sprayed.
Savage Range Systems (SRS) is the manufacturer of the original Snail Trap, which features circular snails which gently decelerates projectiles with centrifugal and friction forces in round deceleration chamber: The system was invented by Ron Coburn, President of Savage Arms and Savage Range Systems. The “snail concept” was born out of the necessity to minimize gun manufacturing factory employees’ exposure to airborne lead dust which resulted from testing the firearms produced with large volumes of ammunition at the Savage Arms factory on prior smash plate designs. Mr. Ron Coburn’s use of low angle impact ramps and large circular deceleration chambers revolutionized bullet trap technology. Today you will find Snail Traps in use at virtually every firearms and ammunition manufacturer in the United States, where wet snails are used as well as in military, law enforcement, and commercial shooting ranges throughout the world.

The Wet Trap is the safest, cleanest, lowest-maintenance steel bullet trap available. It utilizes clear water combined with a light solution of water soluble oil as a ramp and snail lubricant. This water is spayed uniformly over the bottom ramp where the majority of the bullets are designed intended to strike, and is also sprayed inside the circulation deceleration chamber to lubricate and keep it cool This wet medium serves four purposes: (1) to cool the steel, (2) to cushion the impact, (3) reduce friction forces of the bullets against the steel and (4) to contain lead particles which in dry systems would otherwise become airborne. The result is reduce bullet fragmentation in general and eliminate it for 100 grain and above bullet travels less than 2900 fps, resulting in less airborne lead dust, cleaner air, and less time and cost associated with maintenance and housekeeping in the range.

Some dry trap only manufacturers “do not try to understand” or have sought to mislead their clients about the Wet Snail Trap. I would like to take the opportunity of addressing some of the arguments that have been posed.

“You can use any type of ammunition on any steel trap.” No manufacturer of any steel bullet trap should ever be so foolish as to make such a claim about any bullet trap. There are many factors which determine the type of ammunition which can be fired into any given bullet trap, including the type and thickness of the steel used, the angle of the ramps, and the diameter of the deceleration chamber. This argument is put forth because wet/dry competitors know that all things being equal, a Wet Snail Trap will last longer and show less wear under heavy use of large caliber firearms than a comparable dry trap.

“It captures all bullets whole and eliminates splatter and ricochets.” The fact is that Wet Traps do indeed produce pistol bullets that are less fragmented than any other type steel trap, and the majority of the bullets recovered from wet traps are indeed largely whole. Wet traps protect the shooter from splatter or ricochets, when shooting at point blank range. This issue is raised as an by dry trap only manufacturers which produce more fragmented bullets. The benefit of the Wet Trap is to minimize the fragmentation of the bullets when they strike the lower ramp (which is where the vast majority of bullets are designed to strike), and during deceleration inside the large circular chamber (which is where the majority of the lead dust is created), wet traps minimize that lead particulate created from becoming airborne and necessitating an individual dust collector.

“Wet Traps are more environmentally friendly than dry bullet traps.” The lead particulates that is captured in the water settles to the bottom of the recirculation tank in the form of heavy sediment that is safely removed and recycled after evaporation along with the recovered bullets. The water in the wet trap itself is recirculated many times, over. It does evaporate out of the system as clean, pure water vapor and it’s then made up. The water will regularly need to be replenished, but needn’t be replaced or discarded.
Lead that is removed by dry dust collection systems must also be disposed of as hazardous material. The difficulty associated with lead disposal spillage from dry traps is far greater than wet sediment.

The wet trap manufacturer as far as we know only recommends the Wet Snail Trap for indoor or enclosed applications. The fact is dry taps may be better for outdoor use does not diminish the fact that Wet Traps are the ideal bullet traps for indoor use.

“What is better, one-piece welded funnel plates or modular funnel plates.” Welded ramps are an integral component of the Wet Trap. Interestingly this is criticized because “you
nd up with a bullet trap that is much more difficult to service or repair should anything go wrong but it does not.” The observation come from manufacturers of traps which frequently do have things go wrong and require repairs to their traps, up to and including complete removal and replacement. Their ramps feature cover strips to protect the joints of their ramps, which creates an uneven surface that may result in dangerous splatter or ricochet, especially when training at close range. Wet Traps can be serviced with no need to remove the heavy, bulky steel ramps, and require no cover strips which result in splatter or ricochets.

Claim and argument that funnel plates mounted at a 15 degree angle function significantly the same as funnel plates mounted at a 12 to 13 degree angle.” The use of steeper ramps does save on the cost of materials and economizes on space, but it can’t be claimed that it doesn’t make any difference in performance. The flatter the better, 12º is optimum. Conversely flatter requires more floor space.
The SRS Patented Low Angle Ramps are placed at the optimum proprietary angle, and imitators are forced to excuse their inability to infringe upon the patent by using steeper angles. If the claim is that “the ramp’s steeper angle is irrelevant” are true, why not place them at seventeen or twenty or twenty-five degrees instead of fifteen? Because a lower angle is better, but they cannot infringe upon the SRS Patent.

Claim and arguments that “26-inch deceleration chambers are as good as 30-inch.” Using the same logic, if a 26-inch chamber is as good as a 30-inch chamber, why not make the chamber 24 inches, or 20 inches? Because other manufacturers know a larger deceleration chamber is better, but they must justify their smaller product by claiming “space savings”. Some manufacturers also claim to produce circular deceleration but the chambers are actually octagonal chambers or even semi-circular chambers with smash plates hidden inside. These bullet traps are significantly inferior because they create much greater bullet fragmentation and increased lead dust. SRS Traps are large, smooth, 360-degree circular deceleration chambers, resulting in much less bullet fragmentation. The use of smaller deceleration chambers results in increased friction between the bullets and the inside of the deceleration chamber, creating more lead dust. Savage utilize even larger chambers and lower angle ramps, for SRS’s largest traps which are meant to handle a steady diet of .50 caliber ammunition, Savage utilizes deceleration chambers which are a full 48” in diameter, and ramps which are set at 7 degree angles.
The SRS trap does results in a larger foot print because SRS insist in delivering the right bullet trap for the customer’s needs, not a trap that is expedient and economical from the trap manufacturing process.

SRS claims that Wet Steel Traps don’t require much maintenance. This is indeed true. Safety, cleanliness, and low maintenance are among the greatest benefits of the Wet Snail Trap. Of course routine maintenance should be expected with any bullet trap whether it is a wet or dry trap, and it may be considered deceptive for one to show pictures of poorly maintained shooting ranges and present them as though they are representative of the quality of the wet bullet trap.

The components of the Savage Wet Snail Trap are simpler, more reliable, and require less electrical energy and maintenance that those of a dry trap. In addition, routine maintenance on a Wet Trap can be performed with no need to wear specialized protective gear. However, the U.S. Department of Labor requires personnel to wear Respirators and special Hazardous Material Protective Suits to perform routine maintenance on dry traps. The Savage Wet Snail Trap is indeed cleaner and lower maintenance than any dry bullet trap available.

The SRS WET “Snail Trap” is safe, clean, low-maintenance indoor steel bullet trap."
 
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The wet system seems too small for range operations, looks more for testing and gunsmiths. They have a full floor to ceiling model but dosen't seem to be a wet trap.

The traps I've seen typically other then rubber are the style you see from shooting range industries with the angled ramps directing the round into the deceleration chamber, at the top of each deceleration chamber is the HVAC ducting to draw air into the trap from down range in addition to the air curtain from the firing line that pushes down range into the trap for filtering and exhaust. Can see a video here http://www.shootingrangeindustries.com/bullet-traps/

For SRS range trap they seem similar but the angle plates are horizontal vs vertical and they don't specify wet. I'll call to find out more or see if there's more info elsewhere for the range system.

Edit: found another model in a different section "big mouth snail"
 
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90% of my shooting is .22cal.
So if rimfire rounds aren't available, I'd not join(Though I live far enough outside of the GTA for it not to be an option).
Seeing as a good modern HVAC system is $500K to $1mill + you might as well just install a top of the line HVAC and advertise how good your HVAC is.
 
90% of my shooting is .22cal.
So if rimfire rounds aren't available, I'd not join(Though I live far enough outside of the GTA for it not to be an option).
Seeing as a good modern HVAC system is $500K to $1mill + you might as well just install a top of the line HVAC and advertise how good your HVAC is.

Good HVAC is required regardless to pass the CFO inspection, need a custom system designed that's separate from the buildings HVAC.
 
I still discourage lead only bullets at our indoor, but our new ventilation can handle it. But 99.9999% of the people who shoot at my classes use FMJ or TMJ, but with normal primers. I would not attend a range that was mandated lead free as I load my own ammo and sourcing reliable lead free primers is near impossible and when found horribly expensive. All my ammo is plated.
Building a new range, the lead issue can be easily addressed, but it's not cheap. Building a range and not properly addressing it will give you nothing but problems. The air handling cannot be cheaped out on and neither should the backstop. Proper protocols for dealing with waste is a must and proper training on how to work in such an environment is a must as well. Far too many people try opening ranges and going the cheap way, and then lose their shirts. To do it right you're talking a couple million at least, and that's not including the structure.
 
Yeah thank David Miller and Adam Vaughn for their stupid by law.

.22 might be the cheapest ammo to feed but it comes down to how much you shoot, if you go through high volumes of ammo each year might be worth it. 9mm and 40 s&w can also be economical, if your no going through tons of ammo every year the difference wouldn't be huge. All comes down to how much you intend to shoot each year.

you are asking for opinions but don `t seem to be hearing the answer. PEOPLE WANT TO SHOOT 22LR LEAD AMMO.
 
You can build private Space-X and fly rockets up and down to space. So what? Question is at what cost and would that be financially viable in your specific case.

So far you only increase costs dramatically while narrowing you target audience a lot.
 
you are asking for opinions but don `t seem to be hearing the answer. PEOPLE WANT TO SHOOT 22LR LEAD AMMO.

Sorry if you feel I wasn't listening but I said in a few earlier posts going for conventional ammo that's jacketed or plated is looking like the best option which covers all handguns including .22. That's where we were leaning in the first place anyways we were just considering our options after seeing a few business models in the states with different operating procedures. Our thought was IF we can bulk order and find a good supply of solid copper rounds for similar pricing if people would use them, not if we force copper at the crazy prices. I look at it the same as solar and wind power no one is going to use it if it's going to cost them extra, but if wind and solar was the same price you would see power generation making the switch. All comes down to expense and consumers are always price sensitive in any business.

The rest of my post was just a reply a user buying his first restricted and I was mentioning I found 9mm economical but don't go through high enough ammo volumes to make a significant difference regardless of .22, or 9mm. Not to mention the ability to reload at home.
 
I still discourage lead only bullets at our indoor, but our new ventilation can handle it. But 99.9999% of the people who shoot at my classes use FMJ or TMJ, but with normal primers. I would not attend a range that was mandated lead free as I load my own ammo and sourcing reliable lead free primers is near impossible and when found horribly expensive. All my ammo is plated.
Building a new range, the lead issue can be easily addressed, but it's not cheap. Building a range and not properly addressing it will give you nothing but problems. The air handling cannot be cheaped out on and neither should the backstop. Proper protocols for dealing with waste is a must and proper training on how to work in such an environment is a must as well. Far too many people try opening ranges and going the cheap way, and then lose their shirts. To do it right you're talking a couple million at least, and that's not including the structure.

Thanks, that's the route we were thinking FMJ and TMJ. The primers we arnt as conserved about since with good HVAC they can be drawn away quickly. Our main concern was lead dust from impact and having it spread around the facility.

You mentioned a good back stop, Ganderite posted the Savage snail with wet system. Been looking on their site and they seem pretty nice and very simple. Looking at their blueprints for the wet it seems overall a simpler design then the air curtain dry unit. They look like something that can be custom fabricated onsite to spec.

One of my thoughts with the wet system is on impact there would still be airborne particles that won't stick to the section with the oil flow. Unless everything settles on the bottom plate which would be hard to determine until tested. The air curtain unit on the other hand directs the air from around impact areas to filter and heres also an air curtain to keep the air from the deceleration chamber inside.

Any thoughts? Unit looks amazingly simple to me and could even be custom fabricated onsite with off the shelf parts. Few of my friends are back from Alberta due to the oil price crash and fabricating the wet from ar500 would be a breeze. The air curtain would be harder since getting proper airflow and direction would be hard to set up vs the wet with flowing oil on the bottom trap plate which is visible and easier to tune.
 
"My question is would you attend a lead free range to use your handguns?"

Short answer...No

After much discussion I believe this about sums it up. @the OP, once you figure out how often and how much the filter system is going to cost you to maintain in your indoor range, I suspect that in order to turn a profit (which is why you're contemplating this venture, right?) you'll have to charge $1000 a head for membership to a range that the members are restricted in what and how they shoot.
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...see sailor's short answer. :p
 
Try and open an outdoor range 40 minutes outside of Toronto. I know it's a huge hurdle and most likely impossible......
 
Lead-free is over rated. I grew up in a house, played with toys, and went to schools that were painted with leaded paint. In those days we could still hunt within our city with pellet guns and kept pellets in our mouths to keep from deforming and for easy access. Fifty years later my buddies and I are still alive and well. I've been shooting in outdoor ranges, many of the last 35 years. So I don't think lead is an issue unless you are a full time Range Safety Officer.

Joined DVC the only indoor range in Port Coquitlam in Greater Vancouver two months ago, mostly for the convenience. They charge a reasonable $150 annual fee for a limited membership meaning you can only shoot during designated hours, but those hours work for me. Excellent hours for my particular situation, enough basic 17 meter lanes to accommodate current membership and they just added several more lanes in another part of the building. Easy access, great management, decent crowd, warm and dry.

The other nearby range is accessible via a kilometer of gravel/dirt road, is outdoors-cold-wet-freezing sometimes, is limited to mostly daylight hours, has more facilities but way more active members, costs about the same.

DVC seems to have a proper ventilation system and am not sure how the authorities tested air quality. They do have a lead contamination waiver all users have to sign. I only usually shoot once a week, or twice a week 2 to 3 hrs at most. I don't really bother worrying about airborne lead anymore.
 
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ha:

As an aside,please, someone NEEDS to do this. The traffic at Silverdale is getting ridiculous!
Try and open an outdoor range 40 minutes outside of Toronto. I know it's a huge hurdle and most likely impossible......
What is located on the North East aspect of Toronto? There must be some allowances between Toronto and Peterborough?
 
Lead-free is over rated. I grew up in a house, played with toys, and went to schools that were painted with leaded paint. In those days we could still hunt within our city with pellet guns and kept pellets in our mouths to keep from deforming and for easy access. Fifty years later my buddies and I are still alive and well. I've been shooting in outdoor ranges, many of the last 35 years. So I don't think lead is an issue unless you are a full time Range Safety Officer.

Joined DVC the only indoor range in Port Coquitlam in Greater Vancouver two months ago, mostly for the convenience. They charge a reasonable $150 annual fee for a limited membership meaning you can only shoot during designated hours, but those hours work for me. Excellent hours for my particular situation, enough basic 17 meter lanes to accommodate current membership and they just added several more lanes in another part of the building. Easy access, great management, decent crowd, warm and dry.

The other nearby range is accessible via a kilometer of gravel/dirt road, is outdoors-cold-wet-freezing sometimes, is limited to mostly daylight hours, has more facilities but way more active members, costs about the same.

DVC seems to have a proper ventilation system and am not sure how the authorities tested air quality. They do have a lead contamination waiver all users have to sign. I only usually shoot once a week, or twice a week 2 to 3 hrs at most. I don't really bother worrying about airborne lead anymore.

Not saying there would be a problem but if a range wanted me to sign a waiver I'd get tested after shooting for awhile
 
The wet system seems too small for range operations, looks more for testing and gunsmiths. They have a full floor to ceiling model but dosen't seem to be a wet trap.

The traps I've seen typically other then rubber are the style you see from shooting range industries with the angled ramps directing the round into the deceleration chamber, at the top of each deceleration chamber is the HVAC ducting to draw air into the trap from down range in addition to the air curtain from the firing line that pushes down range into the trap for filtering and exhaust. Can see a video here http://www.shootingrangeindustries.com/bullet-traps/

For SRS range trap they seem similar but the angle plates are horizontal vs vertical and they don't specify wet. I'll call to find out more or see if there's more info elsewhere for the range system.

Edit: found another model in a different section "big mouth snail"

The North York Police range on Rutherford is wall to wall (about 10 positions) wet range.

The NRA range in Washington is even wider, about 20 positions, wet Savage Snail range.

if you want a lead - free range, use a wet trap so that 99% of the lead is kept in a big lump. The air system takes care of the primer fumes.

The 'wet" is flowing water down the steel plate. the bullets skip off the water/plate without generating any airborne lead. The water has an additive to stop it from going rancid. The bullets drop into a long basket. A waste metal company pays to collect the lead. because the lead lumps are dust free, it is not considered hazardous material.

I suggest you phone Savage and see what they offer today.
 
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Ranges here in town seem to have no problems.

I also have no interest in furthering the restrictions on ammunition.

I too used to carry a mouth full of pellets when air rifle hunting, recently started casting my own bullets, consume water that likely passed through lead pipe, sometimes use fuel containing lead and shoot in indoor and outdoor ranges. Guess what? My doctor says I'm healthy and no lead. While I no longer carry pellets in my mouth, all other activities continue without me being concerned about it.

I'm more concerned about the metric sh!t tonnes of crap countries like China pump into the air by the minute.
 
Teethed on a lead painted crib. Lived in asbestos clad housing. Still normal as far as I can tell.

Oh... wait..... Walter want's to add a comment. Walter? Walter where did you go?

M
 
A lead-free range would not work for me, either: no .22 rimfire and no reloads. The one time I found lead-free primers and tried them, they gave very poor results in terms of accuracy and reliable ignition.

Mandating lead-free bullets won't save you anything if regular lead styphnate primers are used. Lead compounds from primers are in fact a greater hazard than ordinary metallic lead dust from bullets. Even if you have a true lead-free range, you still want to have pretty good ventilation; you are still burning lots of gunpowder indoors.

I recommend that you look into a granular rubber berm backstop, as provided by Action Target:
http://www.actiontarget.com/products/rubber-berm-trap/

Calgary Shooting Centre uses this style of backstop to handle everything from .22LR to .50 BMG.
 
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