Lee 9mm factory crimp die - Input/Suggestions please.

[Northernfly]

EDIT: The issue has been identified HERE.
Thank you to all those who replied with useful and or informative posts.

Howdy all,

I'm looking for some input from those who use a Lee factory crimp die (or other separate crimp die) on their 9mm.
I've used the Lee factory crimp die on my 45ACP with great success, and I've alwasy prefered to do the taper crimp on a separate and final step.
However, the 9mm Luger model has been chewing the hell out of my case mouths(see pic below) and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. Has anyone else had this happen with the Lee factory crimp die?
It's worth mentioning that this is the second Lee factory crimp die that I have tried.



Previous to this I was using my Carbide RCBS 9mm seating die with TC, and it actually did a really nice job (see pic below). Nice consistent seating depth and crimp that produces cartriges that pop in and out of my case gauge and chamber without any hangups. Basically just enough crimp to remove the bell left behind from the expander die and give ~0.001" smaller diameter than the seating surface OD of the casing.



The reason i wanted to try the Lee die is primarily because of the aforementioned preference to apply the crimp in a separate step, but also because I prefer my Lyman dies and there is a 4th slot for a crimp die in the Lyman case. As it sits right now, I have a Lyman sizer/decapper and expander and an RCBS seater/crimp die in that case, and I guess I'm just anal about stuff like that. I am about to try the separate Lyman crimp die, but wanted to poll the audience first before pulling the trigger on that.

Thanks in advance for any input you can offer.

 

[JohnnyPython]

Make sure that the crimp bushing is installed correctly. The taper bore should be facing the shell holder.

Also try about a third of a turn after the bushing makes contact with the case.

 

[bigedp51]

1. The Lee factory crimp carbide die has a carbide ring in the base and should not be used with cast or over sized bullets.
2, The average reloader does not trim his pistol brass to a uniform length. And this Lee die is a cheat for unequal case lengths, and will size any bulged crimps on longer cases.
3. It will also resize cast bullets and make the bullet smaller in diameter and effecting bullet grip.
4. The mark below the crimp on your cases is the carbide ring sizing the bulging crimp lower on the case.
Your photo looks like you over crimped the case mouth, the instructions tell you for a light crimp to only turn the adjuster 1/2 turn after contact with the case mouth.
And the bottom RCBS taper crimp looks good so you need to readjust the Lee crimp. And if using over sized plated or cast bullets you will need to use the standard taper crimp die.

Note, I have the Lee 4 die set for my new 357 magnum and use my 9mm taper crimp die with oversize cast .358 bullets.

 

[yomomma]

I use my 9mm crimp die with cast bullets. No problem if set up right.

 

[4n2t0]

What's the crimp measurement on that top round? It looks over crimped. How did you setup the die? How much flare are you putting on the mouth of the case? Could you be flaring too much causing the mouth of the case to aggressively rub the interior of the die when crimping?

 

[Northernfly]

Make sure that the crimp bushing is installed correctly. The taper bore should be facing the shell holder.

Also try about a third of a turn after the bushing makes contact with the case.

Howdy, thanks for replying.
The bushing is set up correctly (i.e.: the same as my 45ACP crimp die which works flawlessly). The top picture is the result of adjusting the crimp die until it actually produces a crimp. 1/3" turn makes a tiny marking at the case mouth, but does not seem to actually crimp.

1. The Lee factory crimp carbide die has a carbide ring in the base and should not be used with cast or over sized bullets.
2, The average reloader does not trim his pistol brass to a uniform length. And this Lee die is a cheat for unequal case lengths, and will size any bulged crimps on longer cases.
3. It will also resize cast bullets and make the bullet smaller in diameter and effecting bullet grip.
4. The mark below the crimp on your cases is the carbide ring sizing the bulging crimp lower on the case.
Your photo looks like you over crimped the case mouth, the instructions tell you for a light crimp to only turn the adjuster 1/2 turn after contact with the case mouth.
And the bottom RCBS taper crimp looks good so you need to readjust the Lee crimp. And if using over sized plated or cast bullets you will need to use the standard taper crimp die.

Note, I have the Lee 4 die set for my new 357 magnum and use my 9mm taper crimp die with oversize cast .358 bullets.

Interesting points.
For your point #1, I actually use the 9mm Makarov and a second 45ACP crimp die in my Lee bulge buster to remove case bulge. The carbide gauge ring is the only component of the die at work in that case so I am familliar with it, just never considered it in the context of this particular problem, since the issue seems to be coming from the crimp bushing and not from the ring.
In the top photo, the case mouth is crimped 0.001". I don't think that's excessive(you may dissagree), it just seems to me that the case has been marked up way too much as compared to the same crimp I'm getting on the RCBS die.
As for the instructions, I will agree with you that ~1/2 turn after contact with the case mouth is about right, and this is the case with the 45ACP which works very well. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that it's a straight wall case? I dunno, but with a 1/3 - 1/2" turn after contact I can't even get this thing to crimp at all. That is, when I get the caliper on there the OD of the casing is no different at the case mouth than it is at the seating surface.
I'll keep playing around with this lee die though, and see what I can do. When I take it apart it doesn't seem that anything is wrong with it, which points more toward user error than anything.
Thanks for your thorough reply.

What's the crimp measurement on that top round? It looks over crimped. How did you set up the die?

The loaded cartridge profile is 0.386"(case base OD)->0.384"(mid casing OD)->0.376"(seating surface casing OD)->0.375"(crimp)->0.356(bullet).
The die is set up the same as the 45ACP die I mentioned in my original post; as per instructions. With the 45ACP die, 1/2 turn after contact with the case mouth produces a nice ~0.001" crimp with no markings on the casing, but a just a tiny bit of brass flake that I blow off before putting in to the box.

EDIT. For flare(bell, expansion, etc), I am VERY careful not to put too much on. Just enough so that the bullet doesn't fall off when placed on top of the case. That being said, I could possibly try a little less and see what happens.

Mostly just wondering why this 9mm die doesn't seem to work as smoothly as the 45ACP model. At this point I'm attributing it to the fact that the 45 is a straight walled case and the 9mm has a natural taper from 0.390" to ~0.380", but not really sure why that should make this much of a difference.
At the end of the day I am happy to use the RCBS die, but wanted to see what you all thought.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[bigedp51]

I use my 9mm crimp die with cast bullets. No problem if set up right.

This varies with case wall thickness and bullet diameter. And oversized cast and plated bullets can cause problems.

This problem is more prominent on revolvers and cylinder throat diameter should match bullet diameter.

Lee Factory Crimp die for Handgun Cartridges and Cast Bullets
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?106715-Lee-Factory-Crimp-die-for-Handgun-Cartridges-and-Cast-Bullets

 

[VinnyQC]

I have sets of Lee 4 dies in 9mm, 357m 45acp and 44magnum. The crimp dies all work the same way, and just as well for every calibre. I would suggest that your particular die is defective if you had not said it was the 2nd one you've tried. Mine are very forgiving, one complete turn too many doesn't even make the marks that are in your 1sy picture.

I would think there is something else wrong in your setup though. From the top of my head, I would say your bullets might be a bit too big. What kind is it? And have you tried another brand? A slightly oversize bullet would make you flare too much just to fit the bullet (and it wouldn't feel like too much cause the bullet would barely fit), and then when you crimp it rubs the brass the wrong way.

 

[Northernfly]

I have sets of Lee 4 dies in 9mm, 357m 45acp and 44magnum. The crimp dies all work the same way, and just as well for every calibre. I would suggest that your particular die is defective if you had not said it was the 2nd one you've tried. Mine are very forgiving, one complete turn too many doesn't even make the marks that are in your 1sy picture.

I would think there is something else wrong in your setup though. From the top of my head, I would say your bullets might be a bit too big. What kind is it? And have you tried another brand? A slightly oversize bullet would make you flare too much just to fit the bullet (and it wouldn't feel like too much cause the bullet would barely fit), and then when you crimp it rubs the brass the wrong way.

The bullets are CamPro. It is quite possible that the diameter consistency on this brand is not the best, but in ~3000 rnds I've never come across anything that stood out as faulty. That said, I did find one 40cal round in a bag of 9mm once
I'm going to do some playing around and see what I can do. I'll start by reducing the amount of flare on the case mouth (kind a doubt I can do this and still have the bullet stay in place though, since it's already just barely enough), then try resetting the die and loading up some dummy rounds. I've tried all this before, but trying again can't hurt.

I Mine are very forgiving, one complete turn too many doesn't even make the marks that are in your 1sy picture.

Yeah, that's kind of where I'm coming from with this whole thread. It just seems as though I'm getting way too much damage out of the Lee dies for 9mm as compared to other caliber Lee dies and other manufacturers dies for 9mm.

Thanks Vinny!

 

[Ganderite]

I use the Factory Crimp om 9mm. It solved a problem with the occasional bulged case.

Never seen an issue like the one you show.

 

[bigedp51]

Have you tried the Lyman type "M" expander, it doesn't flare the case mouth and just creates a larger diameter step for the bullet. And works very well with cast and plated bullets and aids straight bullet seating. No bullet tilting and scraping of bullet, plating or coatings

I have the Lyman type "M" expanders in two rifle calibers and for all my pistols. And they expand the case mouth less and will close the case mouth with a light taper crimp.

Below you can see the larger diameter step that you bump the case mouth on to that is slightly bigger than bullet diameter.

The Lyman patent ran out and now Redding pistol dies have the same expander. (center die)

Bottom line, the Lyman type "M" expander works well with jacketed, plated or cast bullets, and makes straight concentric ammo.

 

[Breaker61]

Contact Lee. They will replace it at no cost to you. I have ran thousands of CamPro's through my 9mm FCD without an issue. Looks like the crimping sleeve needs to be polished. My 2 cents.

 

[bigedp51]

Northernfly

Below are photos of my Lee 9mm FCD taper crimp plug, to compare to your die.

Its amazing what a close up macro photo will show you in detail, I think I will do a little polishing.

I also pulled my 357 Lee FCD apart and it has a modified roll/taper crimp with a much shorter and sharper taper angle. I see why this can cause problems with cast or over sized bullets.

 

[Northernfly]

Have you tried the Lyman type "M" expander, it doesn't flare the case mouth and just creates a larger diameter step for the bullet. And works very well with cast and plated bullets and aids straight bullet seating. No bullet tilting and scraping of bullet, plating or coatings

I have the Lyman type "M" expanders in two rifle calibers and for all my pistols. And they expand the case mouth less and will close the case mouth with a light taper crimp.

Below you can see the larger diameter step that you bump the case mouth on to that is slightly bigger than bullet diameter.

The Lyman patent ran out and now Redding pistol dies have the same expander. (center die)

Bottom line, the Lyman type "M" expander works well with jacketed, plated or cast bullets, and makes straight concentric ammo.

Howdy! I believe I have this type of expander with my Lyman 9mm set. I'll take it apart and check tonight. Thanks!
I did try adjusting my expander die last night to see if I could get away with a little less flare on the case mouth, but as I suspected I was already adjusted for the lowest possible amount. Any less and the bullet just falls off the top of the case when you go to seat it.

Northernfly

Below are photos of my Lee 9mm FCD taper crimp plug, to compare to your die.

Its amazing what a close up macro photo will show you in detail, I think I will do a little polishing.

I also pulled my 357 Lee FCD apart and it has a modified roll/taper crimp with a much shorter and sharper taper angle. I see why this can cause problems with cast or over sized bullets.

I've had the crimp die apart a couple of times to look, and it didn't seem to me as though there were any rough edges anywhere. Both the new one and the old one. I'll have a closer look tonight.
I did notice last night, however, that the 45ACP Lee FCD has a completely different crimp bushing design than the 9mm model.
Incidentally, I did just have to send my RCBS sizing/decapping die back to have it polished, as it was gouging the heck out of my 9mm brass right out of the box.

 

[Northernfly]

Contact Lee. They will replace it at no cost to you. I have ran thousands of CamPro's through my 9mm FCD without an issue. Looks like the crimping sleeve needs to be polished. My 2 cents.

Could very well be. Find it odd that both 9mm FCD's that I have tried have done the same thing, but weirder things have happened. Thanks for your reply

 

[rosconow]

Just by your pictures, and not reading any replies, you are over crimping. Turn your die out or adjust the "adjustment knob" out a bit.

I have a lee classic turret and have up to 20k count on my 9mm dies. Turn your crimp die out!

 

[Northernfly]

Just by your pictures, and not reading any replies, you are over crimping. Turn your die out or adjust the "adjustment knob" out a bit.

I wish the answer were that simple, but alas this does not seem to be the case.
The die was originally set up per instructions and using the same method as the other taper crimp dies that I use (including other Lee FCD's), and this is the second 9mm Luger Lee FCD that I have tried.
The amount of flare on the case mouth after expansion, as well as bullet size have also been discussed and do not appear to be a contributing factors.

The picture your are referring to is the result of the die being adjusted to the point where it just starts to produce a crimp, which is ~3/4 turn from the crimp bushing making contact with the casing mouth.
Adjusting the crimp bushing outwards (to the recommended 1/2 turn after contact) unfortunately just just produces a slightly smaller chewed up area and additionaly does not seem to actually produce a crimp.
I'll keep inspecting and testing until I find out what the problem is.
Thanks for your response.

 

[Lead hammer]

My Lee FCD, works just fine with Cam Pro, Zero, BDX. Anywhere from 1/2 sure to 3/4 turn. No marks at all really.
Pull one of those bullets, did it dent the bullet?

 

[Hitzy]

I just loaded 150 40S&W last week, you can feel the crimp being applied at the bottom of the stroke, it's not a lot of force required. I could tell when I had one with a different case thickness if I didn't feel it crimp. Set those aside and did them again with more crimp.
Maybe the flair is too much? Dunno.

 

[4n2t0]

I still think you're crimping too much. Just for $hits and giggles crimp to .379 and see if the marks go away. If they don't go away see if the taper in the die is rough or galled with brass. Just unscrew the adjustment plug and look at the ring.