Legal 8.5" 6.5" Rem 870 w/ Pistol Grip
- Thread starter Korporal
- Start date
MasterPython
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary AB
There were a few non-restricted AK-47s in the registry.
ok im not calling the cfc to find out why your less than 26 " gun is non restricted. i don't care for the frt# i am curious as to why you would not tell us the story behind this situation you vaigly describe.....
the gun looks good. now tell us why it is non restricted pullllleeeeze
the gun looks good. now tell us why it is non restricted pullllleeeeze
x 2...nfa said:
Ike, could you please explain since Korporal isn't? This would seem legal but would be restricted and limited to range use.Ike said:
The rules I have seen say that if it can be shot while it has a length less than 26" (660mm) it is restricted not non-restricted. My 870 with a fixed stock is about 20.75" long without the barrel so COULD have a 5.5" barrel and still be non-restricted. But putting a shorter stock on changes that.
Please explain,
Fudd
I let the proverbial cat out of the bag so I could go shoot this thing publicly this weekend. There is gonna be a lot of CGN'ers out on the range.
I can't go into any further details because I don't know the details. I just buy the damn things. I let the manufacturers and legal types explain the rest.
I won't say where I got/made/procured this particular firearm because I don't have permission to. But I'm pretty sure that will come out soon.
If the CFC made a mistake, sh*tty. I guess the solid stock will have to go back on. Maybe I'll leave the stock on this weekend because the negative posts are freaking me out!
I can't go into any further details because I don't know the details. I just buy the damn things. I let the manufacturers and legal types explain the rest.
I won't say where I got/made/procured this particular firearm because I don't have permission to. But I'm pretty sure that will come out soon.
If the CFC made a mistake, sh*tty. I guess the solid stock will have to go back on. Maybe I'll leave the stock on this weekend because the negative posts are freaking me out!
I'm confused.
I imagine the barrel was made by Dlask, so it's manufactured to that length (8.5"). Perfectly legal.
Just guessing, but it likely has the FRT number that "baalan" made up when he was working with Dlask for the short barrels. I know several were made up for the various barrel lengths.
With a regular stock, it would be greater than 660mm in overall length, similar to "JohnC"s shotgun further down this page. No problems so far.
But when you put the pistol grip on it, it drops below 660mm in overall length making it either restricted or prohibited.
84. (1) In this Part and subsections 491(1), 515(4.1) and (4.11) and 810(3.1) and (3.11),
“prohibited firearm” means
(a) a handgun that
(i) has a barrel equal to or less than 105 mm in length, or
(ii) is designed or adapted to discharge a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge,
but does not include any such handgun that is prescribed, where the handgun is for use in international sporting competitions governed by the rules of the International Shooting Union,
(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,
(i) is less than 660 mm in length, or
(ii) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length,
(c) an automatic firearm, whether or not it has been altered to discharge only one projectile with one pressure of the trigger, or
(d) any firearm that is prescribed to be a prohibited firearm;
I think it would be similar to any non-restricted gun that you modified to make under 600mm in overall length. It would still have a FRT number. You just modified it to make it shorter.
Anyway, I could well be wrong. But if you managed to find a way to make this non-restricted, PLEASE let the rest of us know!
At any rate, I agree it would look nicer with a better pistol grip. Maybe the Knoxx breacher would give you a few more inches of OAL.
Also, did Dlask make the forend? Is it shorter than the forend on the Police model? Any problems with the forend rubbing against the barrel?
I imagine the barrel was made by Dlask, so it's manufactured to that length (8.5"). Perfectly legal.
Just guessing, but it likely has the FRT number that "baalan" made up when he was working with Dlask for the short barrels. I know several were made up for the various barrel lengths.
With a regular stock, it would be greater than 660mm in overall length, similar to "JohnC"s shotgun further down this page. No problems so far.
But when you put the pistol grip on it, it drops below 660mm in overall length making it either restricted or prohibited.
84. (1) In this Part and subsections 491(1), 515(4.1) and (4.11) and 810(3.1) and (3.11),
“prohibited firearm” means
(a) a handgun that
(i) has a barrel equal to or less than 105 mm in length, or
(ii) is designed or adapted to discharge a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge,
but does not include any such handgun that is prescribed, where the handgun is for use in international sporting competitions governed by the rules of the International Shooting Union,
(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,
(i) is less than 660 mm in length, or
(ii) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length,
(c) an automatic firearm, whether or not it has been altered to discharge only one projectile with one pressure of the trigger, or
(d) any firearm that is prescribed to be a prohibited firearm;
I think it would be similar to any non-restricted gun that you modified to make under 600mm in overall length. It would still have a FRT number. You just modified it to make it shorter.
Anyway, I could well be wrong. But if you managed to find a way to make this non-restricted, PLEASE let the rest of us know!
At any rate, I agree it would look nicer with a better pistol grip. Maybe the Knoxx breacher would give you a few more inches of OAL.
Also, did Dlask make the forend? Is it shorter than the forend on the Police model? Any problems with the forend rubbing against the barrel?
The gentleman is absolutely correct... these short barrel pump shotguns with pistol grips are leglal and classified as Non-Restricted. Remington has offered a commercial version of the 870 with 10" barrel and pistol grip for years. I understand that Dlask is now making a conversion for the 870 that creates an 8" barrel, pistol grip 870 and maintains the non-restricted classification... this information came directly from CFC at a seminar about 2 months ago.
The legislation quoted above specifies: (b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,
(i) is less than 660 mm in length,
CFC and RCMP interpret the phrase "adapted from" as meaning that the individual cuts, saws, etc. the firearm himself, not that he installs or has a gunsmith install commercially available components. This legislation does NOT include modifications made by a proper gunsmith, nor does it affect models that were either "commercially" made or those resulting from installation of commercially available barrels, pistol grips, etc..
If you take a standard non-restricted 870 shotgun... if you then purchase a commercially manufactured 8" barrel and pistol grip... if you then install those 2 items on your 870 shotgun... you will have a short shotgun as shown above and you will have done nothing that would cause any legislation to trigger a change in legal classification of the firearm. That was how/why CFC decided these were non-restricted.
If, however, you take your 870, cut the stock and/or cut the barrel then you will have created a Prohibited Firearm.
Don't know if this helps to understand the situation but that is how CFC explained it to us.
Mark
The legislation quoted above specifies: (b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,
(i) is less than 660 mm in length,
CFC and RCMP interpret the phrase "adapted from" as meaning that the individual cuts, saws, etc. the firearm himself, not that he installs or has a gunsmith install commercially available components. This legislation does NOT include modifications made by a proper gunsmith, nor does it affect models that were either "commercially" made or those resulting from installation of commercially available barrels, pistol grips, etc..
If you take a standard non-restricted 870 shotgun... if you then purchase a commercially manufactured 8" barrel and pistol grip... if you then install those 2 items on your 870 shotgun... you will have a short shotgun as shown above and you will have done nothing that would cause any legislation to trigger a change in legal classification of the firearm. That was how/why CFC decided these were non-restricted.
If, however, you take your 870, cut the stock and/or cut the barrel then you will have created a Prohibited Firearm.
Don't know if this helps to understand the situation but that is how CFC explained it to us.
Mark
That is very interesting. I could then presumably put my 14" factory barrel and a pistol grip only stock on my Wingmaster and remain completely legal even though it falls under the 660mm rule.Questar said:
Is this decision available in writing anywhere?
- Location
- Not really sure.
Holy crap that is very interesting, but also just sounds like a big mistake, hopefully I'm wrong!.
Anyway I have a 870 with a LE folder/pistol grip, and 18 inch bbl comming.
I wonder if I could put a 14"factory bbl on there then?.
Anyway I have a 870 with a LE folder/pistol grip, and 18 inch bbl comming.
I wonder if I could put a 14"factory bbl on there then?.
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It boggles my mind, but that isn't so hard to do these days...
The legislation quoted above specifies: (b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,
(i) is less than 660 mm in length,
Not only would I want an FRT number, I would want it in writing on both the CFC's and RCMP's letterhead that they do not consider this firearm to be adapted by any other alteration from an 870 shotgun.
I do not understand how it can be argued that an Remington 870 shotgun has not been altered to be less than 660mm in length. It did not leave the Remington factory that way.
The legislation quoted above specifies: (b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,
(i) is less than 660 mm in length,
Not only would I want an FRT number, I would want it in writing on both the CFC's and RCMP's letterhead that they do not consider this firearm to be adapted by any other alteration from an 870 shotgun.
I do not understand how it can be argued that an Remington 870 shotgun has not been altered to be less than 660mm in length. It did not leave the Remington factory that way.
Ike said:I say congratulations to Josef and the others at Dlask for going through the trouble to get this ruling.
I would agree...
But I would stll want it on a letterhead in writing as well...
Can you imagine being checked with that in your vehicle ...
I doubt there are any policemen out there that wouldn't detain you for a quite a while trying to get that sorted out.
Ike said:Just to add,
The ruling is a little complex and varies between pistol grips and folders as well as Restricted and Prohibited. Read those definitions and know exactly what the rules are before you start sticking different bits on your gun, call the CFC firearm techs if you need help
BTW: There are more than one of them floating around, I have had mine for a couple of weeks now, they are a blast! I also have correspondence from CFC to verify the fact.
Cheers
Have you ever hit any flying object with it?
I wonder if this could turn into another 40mm launcher/Milkor type situation? Also, how many gun clubs/ranges are going to have a favourable reaction to something like that appearing? Better be prepared for a lot of bs and a little shooting.
Questar said:
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Ike said:Questar's explanation is the same interpretation I got from the CFC. Apparantly it is all in the definitions of Restricted and Prohibited and this particular gun from Dlask is not considered to be altered, chopped or sawed because Dlask manufactures the parts and conversion. Kiddies don't try it at home yourselves or you will create a prohib!
Also... according to the definition of restricted, if you put a folding stock on this shotgun you are bound to the 26" rule....because it will be capable of firing from the folded position. That is how I understood it anyway.
The actual rules have been commonly misinterpreted that all guns must be over 26"
I say congratulations to Josef and the others at Dlask for going through the trouble to get this ruling.
Thanks Ike. I almost forgot about the folding stock. Never put a folder on one of these guns! You can put a solid stock back on, but not a folder.I do know that the 6.5" Dlask will be unrestricted as well.
