LET'S SEE YOUR WINCHESTER MODEL 21's

[Cow Town Bill]

M21

Bill as you are aware I have a slightly modified field grade Model 21, built sometime between 1938 & 1942. I suspect it was originally sold through a small gun shop in Ontario. It has been modified from it's original configuration. It had been modified before I obtained it, the chokes Full and Mod had been reamed out. It now sports Briley thin walls suitable for steel. It originally had a splinter forend, but now has a very comfortable beavertail forend with a good match in the wood. I now use it as my regular hunting gun primarily for upland but also waterfowling.

Very nice M21.

 

[Cow Town Bill]

Cow Town Bill will post my text and pix since I cannot seem to post my own photos. He originally owned the gun anyway but it is my hands - down, all - time fav shotgun !

In my dreams I would own a 20 ga with 30" barrels, 3" chambers, vent rib and either Briley thin-walls or fixed-choked .015" and .025".

 

[Falconflyer]

Love the wood on that one!

 

[bluelynx]

Thank you for pictures gentlemen.

Notice the sort of "Prince of Wales" grip on the beavertail fore end on some the guns pictured above. A stock of this type must blow the minds of people like Michael Yardley in Britain.

In the last days of the Winchester catalog custom Model 21 there was a more pronounced pistol grip. Similar to the Sporting clay guns of today.

What did the Americans know about side by sides that the Brits and Euros did not? Something to do some home work on.

My old Don Zutz book on side by sides might have something.

Any other reading suggestions?

 

[Cow Town Bill]

Thank you for pictures gentlemen.

Notice the sort of "Prince of Wales" grip on the beavertail fore end on some the guns pictured above. A stock of this type must blow the minds of people like Michael Yardley in Britain.

In the last days of the Winchester catalog custom Model 21 there was a more pronounced pistol grip. Similar to the Sporting clay guns of today.

What did the Americans know about side by sides that the Brits and Euros did not? Something to do some home work on.

My old Don Zutz book on side by sides might have something.

Any other reading suggestions?

M21's were somewhat different then English doubles. The M21's were at least 1 pound heavier, typically had single triggers vs double triggers, had beavertail forends vs splinter forends, and vent ribs were rare in English doubles. The extra weight can be explained, at least in part, due to the heavier loads favoured by Americans.
A good reference on double shotguns is Michael McIntosh's Best Shotguns which may be out of print but should be readily available on line.
Bill

 

[saskbooknut]

I am pretty sure that the Americans did not know much about shotguns that the British did not know well ahead of them.
The British, at their best, developed shotguns as an art form. The Americans developed shotguns as an industrial process.
The British system was doomed with staggering losses of men in WWI, and subsequently when factory and outworkers demanded a living wage for highly skilled labour.
They were just on two completely different paths.
Production numbers of the best British shotgun makers are astonishingly low.

 

[FLHTCUI]

Ol' Flinter that's some fine looking wood on your Trap Model 21 !
A buddy had one after looking for years to find one.
When he did , it too had some exceptional wood on it, but the lop had been modified for someone with even shorter arms.
Needless to say he passed it along to someone else in a search for a Model 21.
Has anyone been to martini gun-makers web page of late?
He has two one in a 16 and one in a 20 with two barrels....
Also, before Christmas the gun store in NB had a few in his store front as well in his Fine Gun Section.
Thanks for sharing guys.
Rob
http://https://martinigunmakers.com/for-sale/winchester-21-deluxe-20-gauge/

 

[bluelynx]

M21's were somewhat different then English doubles. The M21's were at least 1 pound heavier, typically had single triggers vs double triggers, had beavertail forends vs splinter forends, and vent ribs were rare in English doubles. The extra weight can be explained, at least in part, due to the heavier loads favoured by Americans.
A good reference on double shotguns is Michael McIntosh's Best Shotguns which may be out of print but should be readily available on line.
Bill

Thank you Mister Bill.
I was never able to peruse Michael Mcintosh's book believing it was nothing more than a glossy "gun ####" publication. Obviously there is more to the publication than meets the eye.
I should be able to acquire a copy through the numerous used book forums that I snoop through.
As an aside: I love gun pictures. Gun horn pictures. Pictures of guns with no humans.....showing engraving, metal to wood fit, metal to metal fit, horny walnut stocks. Euro versus Mid East stocks.

 

[Cow Town Bill]

Thank you Mister Bill.
I was never able to peruse Michael Mcintosh's book believing it was nothing more than a glossy "gun ####" publication. Obviously there is more to the publication than meets the eye.
I should be able to acquire a copy through the numerous used book forums that I snoop through.
As an aside: I love gun pictures. Gun horn pictures. Pictures of guns with no humans.....showing engraving, metal to wood fit, metal to metal fit, horny walnut stocks. Euro versus Mid East stocks.

Saskbooknut (see above) should be able to help you out with double gun books.
A great web site to visit is Hallowell & Co in Montana. Not only does he have many fine guns for sale, he also has a great firearms dictionary of the many terms and phrases used by gun people. Also, he has a fine gun gallery showing exceptional fine guns. Happy reading.
Bill

 

[Big Bad]

Thank you for pictures gentlemen.

Notice the sort of "Prince of Wales" grip on the beavertail fore end on some the guns pictured above. A stock of this type must blow the minds of people like Michael Yardley in Britain.

In the last days of the Winchester catalog custom Model 21 there was a more pronounced pistol grip. Similar to the Sporting clay guns of today.

What did the Americans know about side by sides that the Brits and Euros did not? Something to do some home work on.

My old Don Zutz book on side by sides might have something.

Any other reading suggestions?

The English supposedly like the straight grip because it allows a shooter to move his hand faster on guns with double triggers, which I in turn strongly believe are the only sane and sensible arrangement to have on a field gun. Having picked up that prejudice, I separately decided that a pistol grip was an attempt to turn a shotgun into a rifle, if I in fact didn't pick up that idea from Jack O'Connor, who was my guru at that time, if only because he was the only one easily available in books and magazines.

 

[Cow Town Bill]

Ol' Flinter that's some fine looking wood on your Trap Model 21 !
A buddy had one after looking for years to find one.
When he did , it too had some exceptional wood on it, but the lop had been modified for someone with even shorter arms.
Needless to say he passed it along to someone else in a search for a Model 21.
Has anyone been to martini gun-makers web page of late?
He has two one in a 16 and one in a 20 with two barrels....
Also, before Christmas the gun store in NB had a few in his store front as well in his Fine Gun Section.
Thanks for sharing guys.
Rob
http://https://martinigunmakers.com/for-sale/winchester-21-deluxe-20-gauge/

I just had a look at Martini's web site. He actually has 3 M21's: a 12, 16 and 20. The 20 is an exceptional gun and quite rare.

 

[FLHTCUI]

I just had a look at Martini's web site. He actually has 3 M21's: a 12, 16 and 20. The 20 is an exceptional gun and quite rare.

I only posted that link to add the drool factor to those who know about these fine guns.
I'm happy to see some real guns in guys hands who actually shoot their guns and not sit in a collection
Trust my work is done,lol.
Hope to see a few more in the wild so to speak.
Rob

 

[Cow Town Bill]

I looked for years to find a M21 in 16 gauge. Finally I put a wanted ad in the EE section of CGN. The ad got me a 16 ga with 26" solid rib barrels, choked mod and full, single selective trigger, built in 1940
.

 

[Rod]

I looked for years to find a M21 in 16 gauge. Finally I put a wanted ad in the EE section of CGN. The ad got me a 16 ga with 26" solid rib barrels, choked mod and full, single selective trigger, built in 1940

Worth the wait Bill. Looks like a nice one.

 

[browninggold]

That 16g is a beauty, that would be a joy to own and shoot.

 

[Cow Town Bill]

That 16g is a beauty, that would be a joy to own and shoot.

Yes, I shot my share of birds with this gun.

 

[browninggold]

Yes, I shot my share of birds with this gun.

You're likely bored of using it then and tired of looking at it, so you can send it over to me for a while

 

[Cow Town Bill]

You're likely bored of using it then and tired of looking at it, so you can send it over to me for a while

Something like a rental purchase plan? LOL.

 

[Cow Town Bill]

Here is a field grade Win M21 in 20 gauge made in the 50's. It has 26" IC & Mod barrels and 28" Mod and Full barrels. It is completely original and has been used sparingly despite it being nearly 70.

 

[pitpenz83]

Boy have I ever enjoyed this thread. Might be hard on the wallet at some point. I've got a completely restored Parker 12 gauge but would love a 16 or 20 Winchester vintage sxs. I peaked on another site at the Winchester model 23's but not sure how they stack up.