Let's Talk Big Bores

rpcw said:
I’ve run ASG 458 310GN very close to that speed. They are a custom bullet and are very long and pointy. Claimed BC sits at .430 and they seem to follow that in real life.

225 FTX (452) at/above that speed with .15” group at 2980 fps. Bullets don’t hold up on impact.

300 barnes copper up to that speed. This is my favourite hunting bullet. Hunting load either 2450 of 2740 fps depending on situation.

No sabots as they can’t handle much above 2600 fps IMO nor did I get accuracy either. Full form rifled bullets only.


There are fellows running 350 GN at 3200 with same barrel, I am not that brave!

I played a lot with the 310 GN in an FTR chassis, model 12 single shot action right port eject, Brux Match 458 barrel with radial brake. It was lots of fun but punishing recoil at higher velocities.
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That does sound like alot of fun. Fastest I've pushed my 458wm was roughly 2700fps with a 300gr HP. I have a 26.5" barrel
 
Well i’ll stick to my regular stuff 7x57, 30-06, 9.3x62 and 74r and I can save $$ to shoot more!
 
Northern Shooter said:
I find it funny that a .416 Rigby doesn't amount to a big bore cartridge as that was the quintessential example I always had in my head when discussing the subject, and due to the immense energy levels that it produces. I suppose I have been conflating big bore and dangerous game rifles and assumed they amounted to one and the same.

I'm curious, where has the >0.45cal criteria been defined as big bore opposed to >0.40?
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The 45 caliber rule is very old, back to the days of blackpowder if memory serves. In those days you used a much larger bullet for everything. Rook rifles were 30 caliber and dangerous game rifles really started at 50 caliber and went right up to the 4 and 2 bore. Even in the cordite days the 40s were still considered to be mediums. Now, the 404, 416, 425 are all serious rifles, fit for the fight and with adequate power to pick serious fights with. but the difference between fight-picking and fight-stopping is significant. Some guys, like Finn Aagaard, could use a 375 with a high degree of effectiveness. Likewise Harry Selby did a lot of solid years of work with the 416 Rigby. But by and large you saw 20th century PHs still carrying the 458 Winchester (if they fancied a bolt gun) or a 470, 475 No 2, or 500 Nitro as a rifle for making things as dead as possible, as fast as possible, in really tight quarters.

The argument is almost entirely British. No one gives a damn about American cartridges until the 50s when the 458 Winchester came out up until Roy Weatherby woke up from a fever dream and decided that the 460 Weatherby made sense. The 45-70, 50-90, 45-110 etc were all there for fun and games on the plains. None of that, except for skirmishing with the locals, was particularly dangerous.

The large mediums make a lot more sense, and lack none of the nostalgia, but there is something about a real big fighting rifle.
 
BigUglyMan said:
The 45 caliber rule is very old, back to the days of blackpowder if memory serves. In those days you used a much larger bullet for everything. Rook rifles were 30 caliber and dangerous game rifles really started at 50 caliber and went right up to the 4 and 2 bore. Even in the cordite days the 40s were still considered to be mediums. Now, the 404, 416, 425 are all serious rifles, fit for the fight and with adequate power to pick serious fights with. but the difference between fight-picking and fight-stopping is significant. Some guys, like Finn Aagaard, could use a 375 with a high degree of effectiveness. Likewise Harry Selby did a lot of solid years of work with the 416 Rigby. But by and large you saw 20th century PHs still carrying the 458 Winchester (if they fancied a bolt gun) or a 470, 475 No 2, or 500 Nitro as a rifle for making things as dead as possible, as fast as possible, in really tight quarters.

The argument is almost entirely British. No one gives a damn about American cartridges until the 50s when the 458 Winchester came out up until Roy Weatherby woke up from a fever dream and decided that the 460 Weatherby made sense. The 45-70, 50-90, 45-110 etc were all there for fun and games on the plains. None of that, except for skirmishing with the locals, was particularly dangerous.

The large mediums make a lot more sense, and lack none of the nostalgia, but there is something about a real big fighting rifle.
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The rules certainly changed with the advent of good quality smokeless powder. Furthermore I can’t think of a scenario I’d rather be holding a .577 over a .416 on any species.
 
Dogleg said:
I'm not convinced about that. I managed to finangle myself into some buffalo culls when government heli-gunning budgets were used up but the population problem remained. I was primarily using a hot loaded .458 Win and there was some concern about what day after day accumulated recoil negative effects would amount to. As a back-up plan I took a #### load of 350 grain TSXs along. Part of that was to drop recoil down to 375 levels; and part was to see to what extent a 458 could be made to fill a 375 role. Long story shortened up a bit; a 458 350 gr mono cranked up is every bit the equal of a 375 with standard weight bullets, at least on thick skinned
heavy animals like Asiatic buffalo which make Capes look like a chew toy for a poodle. Penetration sure wasn't a problem. Observed effects would easily put them as superior.

Now would I use them on a single animal trophy hunt as a first choice? Not likely. An elephant on purpose? Nope. Thin skinned North American game? I'd rather use a 270.
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I'm surprised you were able to kill anything with those TSX! ;)
 
brybenn said:
A lee press and dies will have paid for its self in savings before your first 20 pcs of brass give out.
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Dogleg said:
You might break even by the time the first 50 box of bullets is empty.
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Sounds like before your first 20 rounds are fired! lol

Ardent said:
The rules certainly changed with the advent of good quality smokeless powder. Furthermore I can’t think of a scenario I’d rather be holding a .577 over a .416 on any species.
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Why is that?
 
Ardent said:
The rules certainly changed with the advent of good quality smokeless powder. Furthermore I can’t think of a scenario I’d rather be holding a .577 over a .416 on any species.
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You'd better hope the first shot with a .577 is bang on because that recoil would make it difficult for an accurate follow up.

But I'm guessing majority of those are in double rifles. I don't know who would have it worse, the elephant or your shoulder?
 
They’re actually not that bad. The .577 3” Nitro Express is quite slow, and the rifles particularly heavy. People hear .577 Nitro and assume it’s a monster, but from a 12lb gun it’s kinder than a 3 1/2” goose load from a pump 12 gauge. Anyone here could handle shooting it.

Worst I’ve ever shot was full house .450 Rigby from a custom short barrelled Empire Mauser I had. Well that, and .375 RUM in a Rem 700 LSS. Both those can make you stop to take pause and debate if this is actually still a fun sporting activity.

Here it is and what it looks like from my perspective shooting it, including it jamming. Even the full house .505 Gibbs is pretty underwhelming… stout, absolutely, but certainly nothing that can’t be learned and even shot fast. I didn’t have the .577 available in time for this video but it was softer than the .450 Rigby with that Superior Ammuntion and the .505 Gibbs, both those were bigger kickers. The .577 Nitro’s just a big, low velocity shove. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a hearty shove, but if you get behind the gun it’s nothing you’d give too much thought to shooting while hunting.

Again though, after playing a lot with big bores, I found them less useful and effective than medium bores that develop speeds 2400-2500+. Trust me if I could have found a good reason to carry a .577 Nitro guiding Grizz I would have, but it’d just be a lot of weight that underperforms a .375 for the vast majority of applications.

 
What a great no nonsense video. I enjoyed watching it. I think I'll pass on the "big bores" and stick with my original plan to acquire a Sako Bavarian Carbine in 9.3x62. It will drop anything here and I value my shoulder. :)
 
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cam1936 said:
I had a Ruger No. 1 in 450 NE 3 1/4".

Factory loads meant for double rifles are in 458 Win Mag territory, but the case has a lot of capacity. In the No. 1 I got a 500 grain TSX up to 2450 fps.

That rifle was too light, it only weighed 7.5 lbs as it had a medium profile barrel instead of the tropical profile (Craig Boddington special edition). I put a copper tube full of lead shot in the butt stock and put on a scope to bring it to 9.5 lbs to make it somewhat manageable.

Without the lead tube and scope it was 120 ft-lbf recoil energy. Even with the weight it was still 95.

I wonder if that rifle played a roll in my recent shoulder issues.
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That's the rifle that I wish my #1H 458 was. I've toyed with the idea of reaming the chamber out to 45o NE which, in theory, should be an easy job. But then I'd have to buy another 458 to shoot up all the ammo I have already!

My shoulder is effed too, but that's the fault of a rather large, and very drunk, Chilcotin kid, not my magnum rifles.
 
Premium 9.3x62 ammo ~$6 per round compared to $8~$9 per round for .416 ammo not that much less costly. Got 9.3x62 rifle incoming should be fun ballistically similar to my .35 Whelen. Sourced PPU brass ~$1.25 ea. & Lapua bullets ~$1.35 ea. so handloads at ~$3.25 ea.
 
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Really good video Ardent, good shooting! I need to practice fast follow up shot with my rifles, I use to but not in a long time!!
 
BigUglyMan said:
That's the rifle that I wish my #1H 458 was. I've toyed with the idea of reaming the chamber out to 45o NE which, in theory, should be an easy job. But then I'd have to buy another 458 to shoot up all the ammo I have already!

My shoulder is effed too, but that's the fault of a rather large, and very drunk, Chilcotin kid, not my magnum rifles.
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I have a knee like that... the result of a very large, gas-stoned, Attawapiskat kid...
 
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