Linseed Oil, Boiled Linseed Oil, and Tung. Head to Head Test!

Alright folks, I've read lots and lots of back and fourth about Linseed oil, boiled linseed, and tung oil. Some are authentic, some better, some ran out in the war, whatever. But im sick of the arguing! Lets test it out!

There is nothing to argue about, the "Instruction for Armourers" states that "RAW LINSEED OIL" is to be used. On top of this if your not hot dipping the stocks and completely saturating the stock with raw linseed oil and your test means nothing. Military stocks used by the British and Commonwealth Nations used "RAW LINSEED OIL" to protect the entire wood stock and not just the surface of the wood.

After Dunkirk during WWII the Enfield rifle was no longer torn down and completely inspected yearly by the armourers and the armourers no longer hot dipped the stocks to replenish the linseed oil. They went to the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" method, and painted everything under the wood line and the troops oiled their own stocks.

There was a very good reason "WHY" raw linseed oil was used but it seems far too many people have forgotten why. If you seal the surface of the wood any water that gets inside the wood stays there and damages the wood stock. By hot dipping the stocks in raw linseed oil all the wood is protected and any moisture in the wood will evaporate because the surface of the wood is not sealed and the wood will not warp.

Below in black and white dated November 27, 1940.





Now go soak your wooden blocks in water and simulate wet jungle conditions and see what happens to your walnut blocks.



Live long and prosper.



Laugh2

P.S. I keep my Enfield stocks and my insides properly lubricated. ;)

 
There is nothing to argue about, the "Instruction for Armourers" states that "RAW LINSEED OIL" is to be used. On top of this if your not hot dipping the stocks and completely saturating the stock with raw linseed oil and your test means nothing. Military stocks used by the British and Commonwealth Nations used "RAW LINSEED OIL" to protect the entire wood stock and not just the surface of the wood.

After Dunkirk during WWII the Enfield rifle was no longer torn down and completely inspected yearly by the armourers and the armourers no longer hot dipped the stocks to replenish the linseed oil. They went to the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" method, and painted everything under the wood line and the troops oiled their own stocks.

There was a very good reason "WHY" raw linseed oil was used but it seems far too many people have forgotten why. If you seal the surface of the wood any water that gets inside the wood stays there and damages the wood stock. By hot dipping the stocks in raw linseed oil all the wood is protected and any moisture in the wood will evaporate because the surface of the wood is not sealed and the wood will not warp.

Can anybody find the temperature and duration of the hot dip raw linseed process ill try it too. Ive got blocks cut for it. Raw linseed 30 min dip, vs raw linseed 30 min hot dip. Ill section them after 24 hours and check penetration. Ive read 49 degrees C (120F) for hot dip linseed, but I need some fact checking I dont want to blow myself up.. With the low flash point ill have to use a "double boiler" method to heat it for safety..
 
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Linseed oil was used for 150 years on wood siding on external surfaces, until some type of synthetic material took the place of wood siding.
Best way to preserve the wood was with a good quality linseed oil stain on the outside, but each siding board was first painted with linseed oil on the back, or inner side, before it was nailed on the wall.
Before painting the inside of the board, the linseed oil was mixed 50-50 with turpentine, then put on cold. It is now common to mix with a synthetic type mineral spirit, but since turpentine originates from a tree, I think turpentine is the preferred mixer and with the mix put on cold, it may be just as good, or probably better, than putting pure linseed oil on hot. It was claimed the mixture of turpentine and linseed oil would keep working its way through the board, until it met the stain put on the others side.
 
Linseed oil was used for 150 years on wood siding on external surfaces, until some type of synthetic material took the place of wood siding.
Best way to preserve the wood was with a good quality linseed oil stain on the outside, but each siding board was first painted with linseed oil on the back, or inner side, before it was nailed on the wall.
Before painting the inside of the board, the linseed oil was mixed 50-50 with turpentine, then put on cold. It is now common to mix with a synthetic type mineral spirit, but since turpentine originates from a tree, I think turpentine is the preferred mixer and with the mix put on cold, it may be just as good, or probably better, than putting pure linseed oil on hot. It was claimed the mixture of turpentine and linseed oil would keep working its way through the board, until it met the stain put on the others side.

Ive read about this method too, Ive heard that the thinner soaks through the wood and brings the oil with it to some extent increasing penetration. The recochem guys who made the linseed im using reccomend thinning 2:1 with twice the linseed as oil. The tests ive started so far have been straight but this is another interesting method. I have also heard cons abouth using the thinner soaking in but the oil doesnt go much further then it normally would anyway. As with all milsurp threads this is another polarizing subject. Interesting conversation so far.
 
****DAY 3****

Ok day three, the four chunck of walnut are out in the sun drying from yesterday still. The 2nd coat is definately starting to show the differences in the oils.

Raw linseed is still a little oily feeling. Not tacky or stick or wet, just the slightest bit oily. It still smells of fresh linseed oil.

BLO is dryer then the raw, but still not dry to the touch. No coats for the linseed today. They visually look identical.

The tung however is dry, it smells the least of fresh oil of the three. Visually they all havethe same color, i dont see any difference yet. It looks and feels just like the stock on my M1A (which is not usgi :( but made by boyds and i have not yet treated)

Ill probaably coat all three tomorrow if they are dry enough.

I forgot to mention in the opening of the thread that al of the test pieces were sanded to 150 grit with 45 degree cross grain sanding then again with the grain to open it up.
 
There is no such thing as boiled (heated up) linseed oil. BLO is NOT boiled raw linseed oil. It IS a chemically altered linseed based wood finish.
Tru oil is a polymerized linseed oil finish.
Troops in WW2 used raw linseed oil.

Each has their place on a gun stock! I think the test is great. Let us know when you get up to 10 coats on each! Biggest problem I had with BLO was taking forever to dry. After 8 coats 48hrs wouldn't dry it. I ended up thinning my last few coats with mineral spirits, helped it dry and spread over the wood without runs better.
I haven't tried RLO. Didn't want to buy enough to fill a tub.. haha

If anyone is interested, I found this video to a big help in figuring out the maze of finishes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCzblO0f8P8&list=FLVFDPu-6OLRXKx130t7A1Hg&index=11
 
Somewhere here I have a bottle of Kramer's antique finish. Basically, it's 99% made up of natural turpentine and raw linseed oil. They add a couple minor ingredients to make it "special" (read: more expensive). It does a nice job though.

My favorite is to slop on a thick cot of RLO, then add multiple hand-rubbed coats of Lee Valley polymerized linssed oil with natural beeswax additive. That stuff is AWESOME. it only takes 3 coats to make a stock look like it was hand-rubbed by 10 years' worth of soldier's hands ;) They sell it in a small paint can, not a bottle.
 
Can anybody find the temperature and duration of the hot dip raw linseed process ill try it too. Ive got blocks cut for it. Raw linseed 30 min dip, vs raw linseed 30 min hot dip. Ill section them after 24 hours and check penetration. Ive read 49 degrees C (120F) for hot dip linseed, but I need some fact checking I dont want to blow myself up.. With the low flash point ill have to use a "double boiler" method to heat it for safety..

Go to http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72 and ask Mr. Peter Laidler the senior British Armourer in the U.K. about raw linseed oil and how it was applied to Enfield stocks.

He has stated many times the stocks during maintenance were placed in a hot dip tank of raw linseed oil and were left to soak overnight.

I do not care what anyone puts on their military stocks today, I'm just letting you know what is historically correct and "WHY" the military used it. Think of raw linseed oil the same way as water proofing your shoe leather, and you don't put hard varnish on shoe leather. ;)
 
Somewhere here I have a bottle of Kramer's antique finish. Basically, it's 99% made up of natural turpentine and raw linseed oil. They add a couple minor ingredients to make it "special" (read: more expensive). It does a nice job though.

My favorite is to slop on a thick cot of RLO, then add multiple hand-rubbed coats of Lee Valley polymerized linssed oil with natural beeswax additive. That stuff is AWESOME. it only takes 3 coats to make a stock look like it was hand-rubbed by 10 years' worth of soldier's hands ;) They sell it in a small paint can, not a bottle.

The pre-petroleum age mixture of 1/3 raw linseed oil, 1/3 beeswax and 1/3 turpentine was used by the lady of the house as furniture polish. It was also used by her husband to protect his rifle from the elements. During the American civil war this same 1/3 mixture was used as cosmoline for weapons in storage.

Too many people today forget the old methods our forefathers used and didn't spend and arm and a leg making it at home.

NOTE: The first thing applied to a new wooden canoe is a 50/50 mix of raw linseed oil and turpintine to keep the wood from drying out and the canoe from sinking. ;)
 
Hi

if you want the linseed in the stock, just put it in a pressure vessel with some linseed and pull a vacuum on it .... much easier that fooling around with a boiling vat
I've done this hundreds of times for knife handles

thin the linseed with natural turps for first coats to get a little depth ( also I add stockholm pine tar, the best wood preservative ) 1 part of each component
 
Ive got 15 coats of modern BLO on my Mosin stock, I know shellac is the proper finish. Took me 3 months to do all fifteen coats, but it looks beatiful, and i typically give it a wipe down with BLO after every trip out.
 
*** DAY 4 COAT # 3***

Dried test pieces in the sun for the afternoon, and just applied the 3rd coat. The linseed and blo went on nicely with the wood warmed by the sun. It is becoming obvious that the time between coats will lenghten as the wood is becoming saturated with the oil. Still no major differences between the BLO and the raw. They look the same, feel the same, the raw dried a little slower but not by much more then half a day at this point.

But... the tung..
Had a rough day with the tung. The bottle says "do not applyin direct sunlight or wind" what it really means is that if you let the coat sit in direct sunlight waiting to wipe it off as i did, it will turn into a shiny varnish that is pretty permanent. Soooooo. Im gonna post a pic, but the part of the test block that was in the sun (about 2/3 of one of the faces) has a shiny shelac look to it and the shaded portions look fine. I guess ill hit it with a really quick 150 sandpaper to try and even the finnish outbefore the next coat.

So in summary... Heating the blocks by setting in sunlight before applying was sucessfull, the lindseed's soaked in pretty good forthe 3rd coat. Letting the tung oil soak in while in sunlight: BAD! glad i didnt do that with a real stock! Now you know!
 
I would be curious to try flaxseed (aka linseed) oil sold as a supplement vs that sold as a finish.

I have always used tung oil, but am curious about using real boiled linseed (vs the modern mineral treated variety)
 
I would be curious to try flaxseed (aka linseed) oil sold as a supplement vs that sold as a finish.

I have always used tung oil, but am curious about using real boiled linseed (vs the modern mineral treated variety)

The eddible linseed (flax oil) has to be kept refrigerated and goes rancid fairly quickly, so it would be interesting to se what would happen but it might not work so well. Art supply stores have the pretentious linseed varieties for mixing with oil paints, and stuff formulated for the wood finishers. Its really the best id guess. So far the tests here are building my confidence in the linseed oils, both are turning out great.
 
....FYI: http://www.swingpaints.com/1802us_can.htm
from the Circa 1850 website: "Circa 1850 Tung Oil is a ready to use finish made with raw tung oil, and does not contain any other oils, resins or varnish."

I got some raw tung oil from Lee Valley some years ago to use for bowls and some utensils that I made. The raw UNTHINNED tung oil is thicker than raw linseed and BLO that you have in those other two bottles. So clearly Circa 1850 at the very least adds some thinning solvent to stretch the use of the rather thick raw tung oil.

Also as I understand these things from my wood working hobby linseed oil has not been "boiled" to modify it to dry sooner for many, many decades. Quite possibly not since the turn of the 1900's. Instead driers have been used to avoid the serious risk of fire and explosion that goes along with correctly boiling the oil.

Speaking of driers there's a high likelihood of finding driers in the Circa 1850 stuff as well. The truly raw tung oil that is rated for food utensils has NO driers in it. The downside becomes the long drying/polymerizing period that goes along with this. Overnight won't do it. In the hot sun for 5 to 6 days may well do it nicely thanks to the heat and UV radiation. But indoors? Truly raw tung oil takes about two weeks before it loses the "oily" feel to the touch. You say you didn't feel this by the next day even in the case of the raw linseed. That only tells me that you don't know what you're looking for in terms of "wet oil" signs because raw linseed oil takes literally a couple of months or more before it fully polymerizes from contact with heat, light and oxygen. It most certainly will not be in any manner dry after a few days.

One major hint to work with is the smell of the finish. There's a noticeable change in odor as the oil moves from being a liquid to fully polymerized. Then once fully polymerized for long enough it no longer smells at all. It would likely not be a bad thing to use that "no smell" test as an indicator that it's time for a feeder coat of the same oil as originally used if one wants to freshen up the protective aspect of the wood.

A few other things.

You mentioned putting the wood in a bag with some silica packs to see if the wood "dried out". What do you expect to happen to the samples from this? The silica will absorb SOME of the water from the wood but not all of it. Wood moisture doesn't work that way. Also you're using reasonably dry wood already so the other aspect of it simply shrinking too much and splitting isn't going to occur even with the silica packs in the bags. If you're thinking that "dry rot" will occur if the wood is dry enough then you're mistaken again. "Dry rot" still requires a specific amount of moisture to be present so that the various fungi that affect wood can grow and feed on the cellulose of the wood. And if a gun safe was that humid then it's a sure thing that the steels would be rusting.

So all in all you're off to a rocky start. I'm truly not trying to rain on your parade. If the rapid dumping of what I've learned about oil finishing sounds that way it's only because I'm already accused of being wordy and smothering the stuff above with friendly platitudes would make it that much worse.... :D In reality you're doing a great job. It's just that you need to modify your testing into something a bit more long term..... just like an oil finish is. Oil finishing isn't the best option for those afflicted with ADD... :D

Since it's summer you can use the hot sun to speed up the process. I'd suggest you just set your rapidly recoated samples out in the sun for a couple of days. Monitor the odor of each two or three times a day and you'll find the odor changing as the light, heat and oxygen modify the liquid oils first into a sticky gum and then into a solid film down in the pores of the wood.

Note that the odor of the tung oil finish you're using may fool you when first applied. It'll take a few hours for the apparent thinners in the oil to evaporate to leave the oil and driers only. So monitor the odor to find out when it changes over to a sort of sweeter smell.

None of these oils "dry" like you get with some paints. Instead once the thinners are gone, if there are any, then the oil reacts with UV and oxygen to modify the structure. This being the process of "polymerization". The driers that are likely found in the Circa 1850 are more about speeding up this process than actually causing it. In a way the driers are sort of like a catalyst in polyester resin. The resin will cure on it's own given enough time. Those of us that have had to toss out a lumpy or solid bottle of the stuff can attest to that.

In terms of protection from handling and the elements I'd suggest a two prong test.

First is to see if the oil finish can make a rub line from a pressure point less damaging. You'd need to arrange something that presses on the wood with an identical force and a well rounded and dulled nail for the test. Then perhaps do the same with a scratching nail.

Second is the ever popular water resistance. The ability to make the water bead up instead of sheeting over the surface is a key element in avoiding any water soaking into the wood. A mister used on the sample blocks can be the "test". For this you'd want to let the oils harden up for something like a month or so. By that time if they get some sun tanning time they'll be as polymerized as they are going to get. Mist on some water and simply confirm if the water sheets or beads. It's as simple as that. Beads are good because it means the water was denied possible entry to the wood and that the oil finish isn't able to bond to the water.

From there shower the samples for an hour. Dry and let sit to dry for a good two hours then mist the samples again. Mark down whether they sheet the water or not. Repeat the shower, drying and testing.

After some amount of showerings even the best oil finish will be damaged enough that it allows the water to sheet on the surface instead of beading. And that is a sign that the oil finish has been compromised in some way and that unwanted water being soaked into the wood is not far behind. It's also the sign on my own oil finished long guns that get used in bad weather that it's time for a feeder coat of oil.

Keep in mind the old wood finisher's credo about oil finishes. Simply put you are NEVER finished. In the classic times when we didn't have all the miracle solutions of today as supplied by chemistry the method was "One coat a day for a week. One coat a week for a month. One coat a month for a year. One coat a year for ever after.". And this applied to furniture kept indoors out of the rain. An oil finished rifle stock can require re-coating two or possibly three times a year. In particular out here in the Great North"Wet" side of Canada..... :D
 
The eddible linseed (flax oil) has to be kept refrigerated and goes rancid fairly quickly, so it would be interesting to se what would happen but it might not work so well. Art supply stores have the pretentious linseed varieties for mixing with oil paints, and stuff formulated for the wood finishers. Its really the best id guess. So far the tests here are building my confidence in the linseed oils, both are turning out great.
So what is the difference between RLO and flaxseed oil that makes it stable?
 
The only endless argument is which one was used by whom and when.
"...seems pretty neck to neck..." No way. No how.
Raw linseed oil doesn't dry. BLO dries but doesn't seal or waterproof the wood and requires regular re-applying. Both types of linseed oil really need a wood sealer applied first. Tung oil soaks into the wood to about 1/4" and gives a hard, waterproof, finish that doesn't require re-applying. Has to be applied in several light coats with 24 hours drying time between coats vs slathering on BLO.
Circa 1850 Tung Oil is just a brand name. It's not a tung oil finish. It's pure tung oil. Birchwood Casey's Tru-oil is a tung oil finish. Ain't the same thing.
Scratch any of these finishes and you just need to put more oil on to make the scratch go away.
"...can't justify spending 25+ bucks..." Absolutely agreed. It shouldn't cost anywhere near that much unless you're buying from Lee Valley Tools. They're a 'yuppie' shop that charges more for no apparent reason. Crappy Tire or Home Despot sells pure tung oil for about $15 per litre, last time I bought some. A litre goes a very long way.
 
To remove the tung oil, wet some fine steel wool with fresh tung oil to buff it off. You haven't done any damage. Sunray, tru-oil is linseed oil based.
 
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