Loading for ruger#1 303 British

Why not? said:
Now, why would Ruger intentionally build the barrels with oversize bores? :rolleyes:

Ted
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Couldn't tell you Ted. I contacted the tech people at Ruger reguarding the specs on the No. 1 in 303Br. they were producing. I was curious because of the wide variations in rifles made for the British military. That was the feed back I received from them!
 
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British SAID Drawing 2267 1931 Instructions for Armourers

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1929 Textbook of Small Arms British War Office

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.303 diameter bore gauge

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six groove Long Branch barrel

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bigedp51 said:
British SAID Drawing 2267 1931 Instructions for Armourers


303borejpg.jpg
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Well, the mystery is solved! That is where the oversize barrels come from..... the bore diameter is .303, but the broaches used to cut the rifling could be used until they were worn enough to result in a depth of the rifling that was specified to be from .005 to .008 inch.

So the total depth would be at least .005" X 2 =.010 inch. Add that to the .303" bore and you get .313 inch.

If the groove depth were at maximum, .008" X 2 = .016, so you could end up with a .319" barrel.

Interesting stuff bigedp51. Thanks very much for the post, and welcome to CGN. :)

Ted
 
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Why not? said:
From the Hodgdon website:

180 GR. SIERRA SP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .311" 3.075" OAL 41.0 gr 2395 fps 37,100 CUP 45.0 gr 2563 fps 43,000 CUP

Imagine what it would do at 55,000 CUP.

Ted
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I'm in the U.S. and our brass in a military Enfield suffers greatly, the reason Hodgdons down loads their reloading information is the same reason American factory loaded ammunition is downloaded. The early Enfield rifles were loaded to 16.5 tsi then 17.5 tsi and finally 18.5 tsi. Factory loaded ammunition is loaded at or below 43,000 cup for safety reasons due to all the older type Enfields still being shot.

Now do you think they make factory brass good for 50-55,000 cup when its only loaded to 43,000 cup.

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Question: How is everyones cases looking in the Ruger after firing compared to being fired in a military Enfield? How much expansion do you have at the base of the case? How is your case life when reloading compared to that shot in a military Enfield rifle.

Have you learned any reloading secrets from reloading both the Ruger and military Enfield rifles. Here in the U.S. I'm switching to Priv Partizan cases because they have thicker rims, a larger base diameter and the case walls are thicker.

So many questions, so little time...............

The military chamber is longer to make room for the mud of Flanders and my Winchester cases do not like pressures above 43,000 cup or they fall apart even when fire formed first and neck sized. :mad:

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Ed,

Quite a few years ago, I had a Ross Model 10 rebarrelled by Bevan King with one of his excellent .311 barrels, and his properly dimensioned reamer. Fired brass shows no bulging at the base, and 180s at 2600+ fps can be loaded repeatedly without case failure of any kind.

Fellow on here bought that rifle from me earlier this year, and reported back to me how impressed he was with the barrel, chamber and accuracy. He may chime in here with his impressions, as well.

Ted
 
Thank you Ted for your kind words and answers, I dropped by this sticky to see if I could find any new information on the .303. I also sent a PM to jamesharrison on false shoulders and he gave me some very good information.

When you talk about bore diameter sizes the .303 dia bore gauge I have pictured above is "NOT" to fit in the British five groove barrel "BUT" it does fit in my six groove Long Branch barrel. The bore gauge is Canadian military and it fits my 1950 Long Branch, therefore it appears that there were many variations in the .303 barrels and bores.
 
Why not? said:
Ed,

Quite a few years ago, I had a Ross Model 10 rebarrelled by Bevan King with one of his excellent .311 barrels, and his properly dimensioned reamer. Fired brass shows no bulging at the base, and 180s at 2600+ fps can be loaded repeatedly without case failure of any kind.

Fellow on here bought that rifle from me earlier this year, and reported back to me how impressed he was with the barrel, chamber and accuracy. He may chime in here with his impressions, as well.

Ted
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I would not mind a modern 303, although I have had good luck with my cases by sizing to the rifleand it is quite accurate.
 
Ruger #1A 303 interior barrel dimensions

QUOTE: "Originally Posted by Johnn Peterson / Just had a phone call up date with Ruger tech department on my data question on the Ruger No. 1 in 303 Br. The barrel details I got are as follows; 6 groove. / 1 - 10 twist. / Bore diameter, 0.303" - 0.305". / Groove diameter, 0.314" - 0.316". Which is the "official" British military standard." UNQUOTE

There are 2 things in this statement that don't carry a lot of weight with me.

1) In order to have these rifles sent to Britain, Australia, N.Z. S.A., etc. where their chambering laws are much more stringent than Canada / U.S.A., there could be NO changes to the original cartridge / barrel dimensions. As well, don't forget the original specs contemplated the machining of countless military barrels, on old machinery not comparable to the cnc rigs Ruger is using today, coupled with the fact that Ruger is apparently only making 450 or so in 303.

Notwithstanding this, before anyone has a conniption fit, perhaps it might be worthwhile to actually mike their barrel. I did & found that mine measures 0.303" (lands) & 0.3115" (grooves). Nothing about this seems like a problem.

2) I had called the Ruger tech department when this project was fairly well along & 3 people there flatly denied that they were / were going to / were ever going to/ make a Ruger #1 in 303 British chambering.
 
jamesharrison said:
QUOTE: "Originally Posted by Johnn Peterson / Just had a phone call up date with Ruger tech department on my data question on the Ruger No. 1 in 303 Br. The barrel details I got are as follows; 6 groove. / 1 - 10 twist. / Bore diameter, 0.303" - 0.305". / Groove diameter, 0.314" - 0.316". Which is the "official" British military standard." UNQUOTE

There are 2 things in this statement that don't carry a lot of weight with me.1) In order to have these rifles sent to Britain, Australia, N.Z. S.A., etc. where their chambering laws are much more stringent than Canada / U.S.A., there could be NO changes to the original cartridge / barrel dimensions. As well, don't forget the original specs contemplated the machining of countless military barrels, on old machinery not comparable to the cnc rigs Ruger is using today, coupled with the fact that Ruger is apparently only making 450 or so in 303.

Notwithstanding this, before anyone has a conniption fit, perhaps it might be worthwhile to actually mike their barrel. I did & found that mine measures 0.303" (lands) & 0.3115" (grooves). Nothing about this seems like a problem.

2) I had called the Ruger tech department when this project was fairly well along & 3 people there flatly denied that they were / were going to / were ever going to/ make a Ruger #1 in 303 British chambering.
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:confused:When, as stated in post # 63, I was talking on the phone with a gentleman in Rugers tech department, that's the info he supplied me with. To ensure I kept the details straight, I jotted down the pertinent data on a note pad as he gave it to me.
 
Checked some of my fired Lapua brass against new cases from the same lot. Also checked some (I keep them separate) Lapua brass that was fired in one of my commercial Lee Speed rifles.

Very interesting.

Measurements taken just in front of solid web (or largest diamater of brass on unfired brass):

Unfired brass 0.455"
Fired brass from Ruger 0.4555"
Fired brass from Army & Navy 0.4575"

Same load, ie 41.7 grains Reloader 15, WLR primers, Lapua 174 gr. SP bullets, OAL 3.100"

I also noted there was NO visible expansion ring on the brass fired from the Ruger while there was a discernible ring on the brass fired in the Army & Navy. Note that because I first expand my case necks to .350" & then neck them back down to a relatively (scientific term of measurement) stiff bolt / breech block closure, the visible ring is not a sign of incipient case failure, I believe, but rather just the visible delineation of the junction of the solid web / case head & the case walls.

Also, I believe someone was talking about case neck turning in order to have concentric necks. DO NOT BOTHER DOING THIS! We learned a long time ago in benchrest shooting that if a case neck is out of round, ie brass is thicker on one side than another, so is the thickness of the case walls all the way down the case. Look for concentric case necks & you will have concentric case walls. One less variable to have to put into the equation to account for flyers ruining your groups, in addition, to wind, sun/shade, mirage, powder / primer / bullet variances, bedding, loose cope rings, damaged scope, laser beams from outer space, your lucky shooting hat cocked just a bit from the previously-observed perfect angle, &c., &c., &c..........
 
jamesharrison said:
Johnn:

This wasn't a slight to you. On the contrary, it was aimed at the Ruger tech people. Sorry if you took this as a jibe against you. I have no doubt whatsoever that this is what they told you. I'm just relating that I think the hired help there aren't in the loop, as it were.

Jim
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Not a problem Jim. I misinterpreted and I did think it was directed at me. It's been that kind of day and that wasn't the first thing I've misinterpreted.

I've had a few No. 1's and they are a great rifle but I have no intention of getting a No. 1 in 303Br. Also, I have and have passed on, to a few guys on site, an article I have on "Tuning & Shooting the No.1". I have a pair of Jungle Carbines, one near mint with bayonet and another I use to satisfy any craving to shoot a 303. With the Lee Enfields reputation for being hard on brass, after the initial firing I keep the brass separate for each rifle and neck size only. I've also changed out the bolt heads to minimize the brass stretch.

I plan to eventually get a single shot in that caliber but something for a shooter along the line of a Martini. I've recently been informed of the existence locally of three higher end single shots, a Rigby, a James McNaughton & Sons and an Alexander Henry. If they're as good as I've been lead to believe, they may be a little rich for my pocket book and needs. We'll see.

I contacted Ruger more as a matter of curiosity than anything because of the wide variation in barrel specs like number of lands, land & groove dimensions and twist. I was wondering what they were going to settle on as a production standard.
:cheers:
Johnn
 
Johnn:

If I was thinking at the time, I would have mentioned it in my original post, so as not to offend. I forget how easy it is on these things for someone to misinterpret what you intend, even though you know exactly what you're saying / thinking.

I've seen and owned a few of the Martini Enfield rifles, (not carbines) & they were real nice shooters, especially the arsenal rebarrelled / refinished ones that were going for $3-400 a few years back. The only problem was that they were military & there are few people left, at least around these parts, that can re-stock a Martini with some nice french walnut & I just couldn't bring myself to bubba the rifle, so sold it in the original refinished condition.

Depending on the actions they're built on, especially if they are Farquharsons, & how much engraving they have, I think you'll find that the rifles you have heard about locally, ie. Rigby, McNaughton & Henry may be priced in the stratosphere, at least for a single shot, ie 5 figures & up, & especially if they're from a dealer on the island (FCM).

If you don't want them, however, I'd be obliged to get their contact info, at least if they're being offered by other than the above, as I'm a real sucker for 303 rifles.

As regards, your comment on LE's being hard on brass. You're correct, but I think the main damage is done on the original firing & neck sizing thereafter certainly reduces any further damage, but I think you can minimize the inital damage by first necking up your brass & then necking it back down again only so far as to be able to close the bolt.

Regards,

Jim
 
jamesharrison said:
Johnn:

If I was thinking at the time, I would have mentioned it in my original post, so as not to offend. I forget how easy it is on these things for someone to misinterpret what you intend, even though you know exactly what you're saying / thinking.

I've seen and owned a few of the Martini Enfield rifles, (not carbines) & they were real nice shooters, especially the arsenal rebarrelled / refinished ones that were going for $3-400 a few years back. The only problem was that they were military & there are few people left, at least around these parts, that can re-stock a Martini with some nice french walnut & I just couldn't bring myself to bubba the rifle, so sold it in the original refinished condition.

Depending on the actions they're built on, especially if they are Farquharsons, & how much engraving they have, I think you'll find that the rifles you have heard about locally, ie. Rigby, McNaughton & Henry may be priced in the stratosphere, at least for a single shot, ie 5 figures & up, & especially if they're from a dealer on the island (FCM).

If you don't want them, however, I'd be obliged to get their contact info, at least if they're being offered by other than the above, as I'm a real sucker for 303 rifles.

As regards, your comment on LE's being hard on brass. You're correct, but I think the main damage is done on the original firing & neck sizing thereafter certainly reduces any further damage, but I think you can minimize the inital damage by first necking up your brass & then necking it back down again only so far as to be able to close the bolt.

Regards,

Jim
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So as not to hijack this thread any more than I already have, I'll send you a PM as further discussion and a couple of pics if my present JC Duo.
 
Gatehouse said:
I noticed I have some .310 Hornady 123gr bullets on the shelf. (FOr 7.62x39)

Bet I could push them to 3100fps or more...:p
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Might be an interesting load to work on. I don't know what one could expect accuracy wise with a bullet that diameter and the likely amount of freebore with a bullet that length, but there's only one way to find out. I'll have to check and see if I have any compareable info in my P.O. Ackley books. I'd be 'tempted' to go or start out with a powder like IMR 4350 as I don't think you're going to cramb in an excessive amount of powder, enough to create excessive preasures.
 
Johnn; There is no possible way to get enough IMR4350 into the 303 case to build dangerous pressures with a bullet that small and that light. Fly right at it!! I would be tempted to just scoop the case full of 4350, seat that bullet and see what results I got.
We did that several decades ago with surplus H4831 and the 139 Hornady in the 7x57. Don't know what the velocities were, but it was mild and shot well. Eagleye.
 
Eagleye said:
Johnn; There is no possible way to get enough IMR4350 into the 303 case to build dangerous pressures with a bullet that small and that light. Fly right at it!! I would be tempted to just scoop the case full of 4350, seat that bullet and see what results I got.
We did that several decades ago with surplus H4831 and the 139 Hornady in the 7x57. Don't know what the velocities were, but it was mild and shot well. Eagleye.
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Exactly, and that was my point. The same holds true for a couple of other powders with a close and similar burn rate, one of which you've mentioned, 4831, H or IMR:).
 
303 loads ive found accurate

hello there , ive been loading 303 for a few yrs, and have tried countless combinations but have only a handful ive considered to be "accurate"

these are loads i use as follows, i use them in my BSA p14 sporting rifle
bore is in"new " cond


H335-39.2 GRAINS,CCI 250 MAG PRIMER, REM BRASS, HORNADY 174 GR RNVERY ACCURATE, SHOOTS 2" AT 150YRDS IN MY RIFLE

IMR4350-45.5 GRAINS, REM BRASS, WIN LRG RIFLE PRIMER,HORNADY 174 RN BULLET, SUPER HUNTING LOAD, 2.5" @ 150YRDS


IMR4007SSC, 42.5 GRAINS, REM BRASS, 174 SIERRA MATCHKING BOAT TAIL
VERY NICE TARGET ROUND


H414, 43 GRAINS, REM BRASS, CCI 250 MAG PRIMER, HORNADY 174GR, RN
EX LOAD IN BOTH LEE ENFIELDS AND P14 RIFLES

THESE LOADS EXHIBITED NO PRESSURE SIGNS,AND PROVED TO WORK WELL

HOPE THIS HELPS YOU OUT
 
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