loading for the 303 and the use of premium bullets

A premium bullet will not make up for your mistakes! As well in non magnum calibres which we are discussing here a premium bullet might not be what you want. In many cases a non premium bullet in a non magnum behaves pretty much exactly as a premium bullet in a magnum. There is a big differerence between the forces acting on a bullet fired from a .303 savage and a .308 win mag.
One rifle can almost certainly benefit from premiums and one rifle likely will be made far less effective by them.

Hey boerseun,
In my experience the 6.5x55 handloaded with Hornady 160 grainers to 2550 or Norma Alsakans is a fantastic moose and black bear cartridge.
The penetration is fantastic and both bullets hold together very very well.
I would'nt hesitate to use the hornady on anything short of grizzly bear/bison and even then If I had to I know I would win.

I still stand by opinion that a bullet that has left all it's energy in the game and stopped under the hide on the off side is as close to terminal ballistics perfection as you can get. All of mr Bartell's swearing and exasperation does'nt seem to effect my opinion at all. go figure.

As this thread is about non magnums and more specifically the .303 let me say that steve's 200 grain .303 bullets are great. woodliegh also has some great .303 bullets if you want to spend money.

Another great bullet is the old 180 grain CIL with the 4 big ugly crimps in it. that is decidely not a premium bullet but performs well.

I say buy a 1000 non premium, good hunting bullets, shoot lots and when it comes to killing moose, deer, bears don't give it a second thought. Make a proper shot and all will work out just fine.
 
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too each their own, happy hunting with whatever you choose to use

just remember. the bullet you use is the only way to contact the trophy you aim for. Personally I will not scrimp.
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still stand by opinion that a bullet that has left all it's energy in the game and stopped under the hide on the off side is as close to terminal ballistics perfection as you can get. All of mr Bartell's swearing and exasperation does'nt seem to effect my opinion at all
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I tend to agree somewhat here.
How is a bullet that passes throuh a animal gonna kill it deader than one that hits the vitals but stops in the animal or under the skin? Personally I think people make much too much fuss over velocity (I do not own any magnums :p) But to each his own.
 
todbartell said:
10 inches of penetration before expansion? are you joking?

maybe with some of the early 90s era X's, which were plauged with problems, one of which was inconsistent expansion. the new triple shocks and xlcs got that sorted out now, and barnes claims expansion down to 1600-1700 fps, but I'd be more comfortable keeping impact above 2000 fps, just to be safe.

here's a yote shot with a 140 tsx in 7mm, impact speed 2600 fps, broadside. there is no 10 inches of forgiving tissue in a coyote broadside to get a bullet expanding before it rips into lungs. seems they can expand! :D:rolleyes:

10574b73.jpg

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Tod, while the 7mm-140 TSX is a great deer bullet, it is so over kill on a coyote you have no idea if the bullet expanded or not. The damage you witnessed was a product of velocity rather than bullet performance. I remember killing a fox with a .30-180 RN @ 2600 and it looked like someone had thrown a football through him. I killed a couple of red squirrels this morning with my .375 - were they blown to pieces because the 270 gr. spire point @ 2800 expanded? I don't think any of these kills on small game with deer rifles is an indication of an expanding bullet. Is the 7mm-140TSX a great bullet for medium sized game - sure it is, I just don't think it's as far ahead of a bonded lead core bullet as the folks at Barnes would like us to believe. I do like them though, and have a half dozen boxes on my loading bench, right beside my bonded lead cores.
 
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Premium

Boer seun said:
I tend to agree somewhat here.
How is a bullet that passes throuh a animal gonna kill it deader than one that hits the vitals but stops in the animal or under the skin? Personally I think people make much too much fuss over velocity (I do not own any magnums :p) But to each his own.
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If a bullet passes completely through and expands properly, it has a longer wound channel than one that stops half way through.

You have decided that the extra 10 or 15 bucks isn't worth it to you, so don't use premiums. Save your money for a couple cups of coffee. While others like myself, think its worth the few extra dollars for the extra protection/performance. Lets face it a Premium bullet is not going to do worse than a cheaper hunting bullet.

You asked for opinions and then you continue to justify that you don't need them, then don't use them already.
 
Penetration Chart

For those who would like, I have a very good bullet Penetration Poster which was published by Handloader magazine. Its too big to attach as a picture, but send me you email and I will send you a copy of it its 1.3 megs. It shows a ton of bullets , penetration and expansion. Might help you decide if a bullets worth trying.
 
I use 174 match kimgs and H4360 in my tarhet handloads, but have also used H4831.
In my hunting handloads I use 180 Seirras, or a special stash of C.I.L. 215's and 180's that I am slowly running out of!

I have also used and handloaded 180 grain Seirras in the 6.5X55 for many people who have had no problem killing moose with them!
cat
 
david doyle said:
I still stand by opinion that a bullet that has left all it's energy in the game and stopped under the hide on the off side is as close to terminal ballistics perfection as you can get.
e.
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And why do you think this is better performance than a bullet that has fully expanded, but penetrated completely?:confused:
 
Barnes 150-grain Triple-Shock X-Bullet fired from a Federal .308 Win. factory load.
Bullet is shown exiting a 2-inch-thick slice of 10% 250A Ordnance gelatin. As this photo shows, very little resistance is needed to force the razor-sharp copper petals open.

x-citingfacts_clip_image002.gif



According to Barnes, the TSX opens fast, an they appear to prove it, that picture shows a bullet that expanded immediately in the gelatin.

From my (limited) experience with the tsx, Barnes isn't lying. The bear I shot a coupel of weeks ago showed a bullet that rapidly expanded.:)
 
david doyle said:
A premium bullet will not make up for your mistakes! As well in non magnum calibres which we are discussing here a premium bullet might not be what you want. In many cases a non premium bullet in a non magnum behaves pretty much exactly as a premium bullet in a magnum. There is a big differerence between the forces acting on a bullet fired from a .303 savage and a .308 win mag.
One rifle can almost certainly benefit from premiums and one rifle likely will be made far less effective by them.

.
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This isn't entirely true.

Heavy bullets in cartridges like the 303 will indeed perform like a 300 magnum with a premium bullet.

The old, heavy 215gr softnose .311 bullets woudl pentrate like crazy. Of course, you need to use heavier bullets for this performance.

However, to say that a rife will be "less effective" with premiums wouldn't be true. You could use a 150-165 TSX bullet in the .303 (if they made .311 bullets) and achieve similar performance as the 200gr soft point, as well as give yourself a little less recoil, and higher velocity.



But use whatever bullet turns you on, I probbaly woudn't use a premium in a 303, especailly as there arent' any that I know of.:)
 
For those who would like, I have a very good bullet Penetration Poster which was published by Handloader magazine. Its too big to attach as a picture, but send me you email and I will send you a copy of it its 1.3 megs. It shows a ton of bullets , penetration and expansion. Might help you decide if a bullets worth trying.
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If this is the chart published in 1998,it should be mentioned that some bullets listed,have been changed over the years and no longer perform as they did in 1998.The 180gr ballistic tip is a prime example. As well,it does not include bullets such as the accubond,interbond,tsx etc.
 
given that i might shoot 60 rounds a year out of my .303 i just use winchester superX factory rounds in 180 gr now they arnt as accurate as i would like but for factory rounds there isnt much out there and i dont realy see a benifit to purchasing all the gear and stuff to reload 60 rounds a year yet in time but not yet LOL
 
Gatehouse said:
Barnes 150-grain Triple-Shock X-Bullet fired from a Federal .308 Win. factory load.
Bullet is shown exiting a 2-inch-thick slice of 10% 250A Ordnance gelatin. As this photo shows, very little resistance is needed to force the razor-sharp copper petals open.

x-citingfacts_clip_image002.gif



According to Barnes, the TSX opens fast, an they appear to prove it, that picture shows a bullet that expanded immediately in the gelatin.

From my (limited) experience with the tsx, Barnes isn't lying. The bear I shot a coupel of weeks ago showed a bullet that rapidly expanded.:)
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Gate -
That is a very impressive picture, so I am convinced that the TSX's open quicker than I thought.

Signguy -
The Rangers here have been issued Super X 180 gr. .303 ammo some years, and it has proven remarkably accurate in some rifles. In a good 5 groove barrel two of the guys here shot very tight groups with this stuff - one rifle was exceptional, and would hold MOA @ 100 - the guy behind it was no slouch either. Those two fellows went to Connaught several years running and did quite well.
 
Boomer said:
Gate -
That is a very impressive picture, so I am convinced that the TSX's open quicker than I thought.

Signguy -
The Rangers here have been issued Super X 180 gr. .303 ammo some years, and it has proven remarkably accurate in some rifles. In a good 5 groove barrel two of the guys here shot very tight groups with this stuff - one rifle was exceptional, and would hold MOA @ 100 - the guy behind it was no slouch either. Those two fellows went to Connaught several years running and did quite well.
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well i have heard the 5 groove barrels are nice for accuracy un fortunatly mine is a 2 groove and its a pain to get 2-3" groups at a 100 off hand let alone anything tighter then 1.5" just put the bipod on so i will see how it does with a steady rest
 
How come hydro-shock has not come up in this thread. Once a bullet is going 2000fps, and it hits a block of gel or a block of tissue. The fluid will hydraulically transfer much of the energy from the bullet to the other soft tissues. Once the lungs, liver, heart… are all mush it’s lights out anyway. It’s hydraulic forces that are causing that gel to expand to 10inches. The same happens in an animal.

Keep in mind that back in the day a hunter could take a moose with a 100gr wooden arrow!! What’s wrong with you guys:D

Nic
 
If you are shooting a Lee Enfield, to get any realistic life out of your brass you have to adjust your bolt to obtain the correct headspace. Most Lee Enfields show severe case streaching even on once fired brass.
 
f you are shooting a Lee Enfield, to get any realistic life out of your brass you have to adjust your bolt to obtain the correct headspace. Most Lee Enfields show severe case streaching even on once fired brass.
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What's the easyest way to do this?
 
Bolt heads come in 3 or 4 numbered sizes. Smiths who are not too upity about what they work on can headspace the rifle and install the correct bolt head (if required). If your Bolt matches the gun chances are pretty good everything is fine.

In my limited SMLE experience the LEE COLLET NECK SIZE die is the easiest way to improve case life. (unless you have a gross headspace problem)
You can also adjust your FL die to only size the neck.
 
If this thread is about the .303, then all this discussion about "premium" bullets is misplaced. As far as I know, the only true premium bullet available for the .303 is the Australian Woodleigh Weldcore. (I've got a box of these, and I'm saving them for a special occasion, like hunting with my P-14 ".303 Winchester Magnum".) Personally, I'd love to see something like the Hornady Interbond in .303, preferably weighing 174 grains, but I wouldn't hold your breath. From what I understand, the velocities generated by this cartridge really don't tear bullets apart, so there may not be much of a need for premiums in the .303 British.

As for powders, there are a lot that will work with the 174-180 grain weight. Though I've never used them, I'll bet Reloder 15 and Vihtavuori N540 would be outstanding. The classic WWI-era load that still works today used IMR 3031. Others have had good results with Varget and the 4895s.

Personally, I've found IMR 4320 to be the most consistent with 150 to 180 grain bullets in the .303, and I don't see any reason to change. If you have a 24-inch barrel, you should have no problem getting the standard 2,700 fps velocity with IMR 4320 and a 150 grain bullet. You should also have no problem getting 2,450 with a 174 grain bullet. If you have a strong action like a P-14, you should be able to get a bit higher than this, essentially matching .308 Winchester ballistics, but you don't need to do this to get decent results from the .303. The standard .303 loads described above essentially duplicate the ballistic performance of the .300 Savage, and bullets perform quite well at this velocity level on game, as long as you don't stretch the ranges too far.
 
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