Long Range 22LR 300 yards +, transonic zone, ammo characteristics and quality

The video makes a clear point. If a 22 LR has a hard time holding 1 MOA at 100 yards, how it it possible to pretty much hold 1 MOA at 275 yards given the exponential accuracy degradation ratio you claim?

Perhaps you are suggesting my CZ 22 can hold 1/10 MOA at 100 if we do the math backwards?



According to your assertion, the group size at such a distance should result in perhaps one hit per box at such a distance. Instead the few misses can be attributed to mirage refraction, variations in wind speed and poor glass quality before they can be attributed to the accuracy degradation rate you repeatedly and quite confidently claim is somehow factual. I'm slamming my BS card right on top of it.

When you consider a group size of 1 MOA at 100 yards, a direct ratio results in roughly 2.75 inches at 275 yards. Add to that maybe a 20 FPS velocity spread and now you have an accuracy potential about the size of a pop can. This of coarse is based upon a linear correlation. I'm confident I could hit 10 cans in a row if I made the effort in calm conditions with overcast skies.

The only element that would create a non linear condition would be the unpredictable weather conditions over such a distance which easily accounts for the few close misses you see in the video.

Maple, you apparently don't recognize your lack of experience and knowledge or that you've drawn unsupportable conclusions from a video that itself doesn't make the claims you're making. You've dug yourself a hole and continue to dig deeper. You ought to stop for your own sake.

To be fair, however, you and and any like-minded readers should please take the opportunity to try to post reliable information that supports your now-repeated claim that .22LR accuracy remains linear, regardless of distance.

You should be warned that finding such information will be a Sisyphean task, fruitless and unrewarding. In fact, it will be something like how attempts feel with regard to helping Maple understand this question.

Maple, my advice is that if you wish to save time, you should simply admit, at least to yourself, that you're wrong about this and move on. Otherwise, you're welcome to have at it. Post reliable supporting information if you can.
 
After reading a number of articles arrived at through this post and other's messages there are some questionable figures in respect to BC's for 22 rimfire.

One figure for Lapua was 0.172 a figure I had never seen before but later in the article. 0.142 was quoted.

The Sierra Infinity program Shows 0.14 for the Eley Match and 0.114 for Lapua. Hard to know who to believe.

I have never been able to correlate the published BC's for .22 ammo directly to any of my rifles. After inputting the measured muzzle velocities into the ballistics software that I am using I will compare the dial-ups plotted to the actual DOPE for that particular rifle and ammo. Then I will adjust the BC value in the software to match the actual DOPE. I find myself using BC's of
.128 for Tenex/Match and from .133 to .137 for SK/Lapua. Are these values correct? I don't know. However, they are what I am forced to use to correlate the data.

For what it's worth, on it's website, Lapua gives the following information relating to the BC of the bullets used in Center X, Midas +, and X-Act.

Ballistic coefficients are calculated by Quick Target Unlimited Lapua Edition from V0 to V75
BC G1 for all Rimfire .22 LR bullets = 0.172


The figure of 0.172 is also used for SK .22LR bullets.

Gundata.org lists Lapua at 0.161.

Whatever the figure may be, readers should be aware that BC changes with bullet MV and with bullet velocity as it goes downrange. Whether that is taken into account by ballistics calculators used in the field is unclear, but perhaps it does.

All .22LR shooters should be aware that there are other factors, excluding wind, other than MV and BC that need to be considered when POI is concerned. In other words, it's not simply or always BC and MV that determines where an individual bullet strikes downrange. As a result, figures plugged into ballistics calculators may not produce the results seen in practice.
 
For what it's worth, on it's website, Lapua gives the following information relating to the BC of the bullets used in Center X, Midas +, and X-Act.

Ballistic coefficients are calculated by Quick Target Unlimited Lapua Edition from V0 to V75
BC G1 for all Rimfire .22 LR bullets = 0.172


The figure of 0.172 is also used for SK .22LR bullets.

Gundata.org lists Lapua at 0.161.

Whatever the figure may be, readers should be aware that BC changes with bullet MV and with bullet velocity as it goes downrange. Whether that is taken into account by ballistics calculators used in the field is unclear, but perhaps it does.

All .22LR shooters should be aware that there are other factors, excluding wind, other than MV and BC that need to be considered when POI is concerned. In other words, it's not simply or always BC and MV that determines where an individual bullet strikes downrange. As a result, figures plugged into ballistics calculators may not produce the results seen in practice.

I agree there are a number of other variables to take into consideration such as ambient temperature, pressure, humidity and even altitude above sea level. Not to mention ammo temperature which can cause substantial changes in MV and POI all by itself.

22LR is so finicky that I am amazed sometimes that I hit anything at all : )
 
I have posted this somewhere before but this was shot at 100 Metres and measured Imperial. Should qualify as all under one MOA.
Your opinions count. BTW . . . what is one MOA at 100 metres? 1.047 x 1.0936 = 1.144

Remington 40XB, Lilja barrel, Eley match chamber, smithed by Dennis Sorensen and a Leupold Competition 45 x 45 using Remington Eley Match with a published velocity of 1062.




This was shot at 100 yards . . . same rifle and same lot of ammo as the above.


 
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I agree there are a number of other variables to take into consideration such as ambient temperature, pressure, humidity and even altitude above sea level. Not to mention ammo temperature which can cause substantial changes in MV and POI all by itself.

22LR is so finicky that I am amazed sometimes that I hit anything at all : )

Indeed, there are those factors you mention, but I was referring to factors directly involving the ammo itself. Inconsistencies in the manufacturing process, bullet seating and crimping, and the components themselves, particularly the bullets and the heels, have the potential to throw asunder otherwise sound expectations and ballistic predictions. Unfortunately, there is no way to anticipate such inconsistencies in unfired ammunition.
 
I have yet to see anyone hold 1 MOA with 22LR at 200 yards. Performance is not linear. and cannot be. This is not difficult to understand for anyone, except you, it seems. Velocity variation shot-to-shot produces exponentially greater vertical dispersion with distance, not linear. Wind produces exponentially greater drift with distance, not linear. Flaws in the bullets fly off-track exponentially more with distance, not linear.

Let's superimpose a pop can sized box over a 50 shot group at 200 yards. Nearly 20 misses. About 60% of rounds would find their mark, the rest will miss and there is not a thing the shooter can do about it, other than select some better ammo.


Vertically extended groups are linear for sub sonic ammunition... In simple terms... raw accuracy defines the base size of the no wind group and raw accuracy plus the vertical effect of the velocity spread defines the height... (back to the pop can) That is 100 percent linear... There is no mysterious voodoo that arbitrarily applies some mysterious force that expands group size exponentially over distance in a no wind condition at some arbitrarily selected 2.8 times factor (as grauhanen keeps insisting) applied to some other arbitrarily selected base distance. Finding ammo with a low velocity spread will proportionally reduce the vertical dispersion... Again... Linear.

Supersonic ammo does go through a disturbance phase where the projectile can adopt some other arbitrary and somewhat unpredictable direction. Literally everyone who shoots competitively at long range is aware of this.

Just because this particular group does not fit a pop can does not prove any particular point... I can find groups I have fired at 300 yards that are well inside the bounds of a pop can.
 
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Maple, you apparently don't recognize your lack of experience and knowledge or that you've drawn unsupportable conclusions from a video that itself doesn't make the claims you're making. You've dug yourself a hole and continue to dig deeper. You ought to stop for your own sake.

To be fair, however, you and and any like-minded readers should please take the opportunity to try to post reliable information that supports your now-repeated claim that .22LR accuracy remains linear, regardless of distance.

You should be warned that finding such information will be a Sisyphean task, fruitless and unrewarding. In fact, it will be something like how attempts feel with regard to helping Maple understand this question.

Maple, my advice is that if you wish to save time, you should simply admit, at least to yourself, that you're wrong about this and move on. Otherwise, you're welcome to have at it. Post reliable supporting information if you can.

Sorry buddy, but I will die on this hill. I so disagree with you on this and find your condescending confidence on the point disgraceful.

I appreciate your thoughts as I do not believe you to be an unintelligent person, but to suggest that I lack experience and knowledge is clear evidence to the contrary.

You clearly suffer from cognitive bias. You just want to be right and you state claims made by others as though for some reason whoever they are represent some higher authority. The world is full of truly moronic people who make absurd conclusions without the realization that some other factor is the real reason for the result. These things propagate as the parrots of the world who don't have the ability to see the logical defects repeat the stories to others who don't know enough to call the parrot a parrot. These parrots keep repeating the sounds they like with no insightful understanding of the meaning or the moronic thinking behind the statement. I could literally write a book on this as it applies to the shooting community.

But yes, some of your points are valid, (nothing new to me mind you) but we depart on this arbitrary 2.8 factor thing and ignoring the effect of transonic induced variation. Here I draw a hard line and its probably best to agree to disagree.
 
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Vertically extended groups are linear for sub sonic ammunition... In simple terms... raw accuracy defines the base size of the no wind group and raw accuracy plus the vertical effect of the velocity spread defines the height... (back to the pop can) That is 100 percent linear... There is no mysterious voodoo that arbitrarily applies some mysterious force that expands group size exponentially over distance in a no wind condition at some arbitrarily selected 2.8 times factor (as grauhanen keeps insisting) applied to some other arbitrarily selected base distance. Finding ammo with a low velocity spread will proportionally reduce the vertical dispersion... Again... Linear.

Supersonic ammo does go through a disturbance phase where the projectile can adopt some other arbitrary and somewhat unpredictable direction. Literally everyone who shoots competitively at long range is aware of this.

Just because this particular group does not fit a pop can does not prove any particular point... I can find groups I have fired at 300 yards that are well inside the bounds of a pop can.

I suppose if you assume projectile velocity remains constant no matter what distance is traveled until terminal impact, then vertical dispersion might be linear. However, since we exist in physical reality and not the la-la land inside your head, the laws of physics apply and the projectile begins to slow immediately upon exit of the barrel. The further the distance travelled, the slower the projectile becomes, therefore the vertical drop increases per unit of horizontal distance covered, exponentially.

This isn't even an argument to be had, you're a science and reality denier and looking mighty foolish about now. Think what you want about rimfire ammo and trans-sonic disturbance, there is no evidence to demonstrate it shows up in a meaningful way on the target beyond greater wind drift due to increased drag coefficients.
 
You clearly suffer from cognitive bias. You just want to be right and you state claims made by others as though for some reason whoever they are represent some higher authority. The world is full of truly moronic people who make absurd conclusions without the realization that some other factor is the real reason for the result. These things propagate as the parrots of the world who don't have the ability to see the logical defects repeat the stories to others who don't know enough to call the parrot a parrot. These parrots keep repeating the sounds they like with no insightful understanding of the meaning or the moronic thinking behind the statement. I could literally write a book on this as it applies to the shooting community.

This is some incredible projection. I think we could do a psychology case study in this thread, what fun! :d
 
Sorry buddy, but I will die on this hill. I so disagree with you on this and find your condescending confidence on the point disgraceful.

I appreciate your thoughts as I do not believe you to be an unintelligent person, but to suggest that I lack experience and knowledge is clear evidence to the contrary.

You clearly suffer from cognitive bias. You just want to be right and you state claims made by others as though for some reason whoever they are represent some higher authority. The world is full of truly moronic people who make absurd conclusions without the realization that some other factor is the real reason for the result. These things propagate as the parrots of the world who don't have the ability to see the logical defects repeat the stories to others who don't know enough to call the parrot a parrot. These parrots keep repeating the sounds they like with no insightful understanding of the meaning or the moronic thinking behind the statement. I could literally write a book on this as it applies to the shooting community.

But yes, some of your points are valid, (nothing new to me mind you) but we depart on this arbitrary 2.8 factor thing and ignoring the effect of transonic induced variation. Here I draw a hard line and its probably best to agree to disagree.



Each of your successive posts is like watching a terrible car accident unfolding. There's a strong desire to look away, but it's impossible.

Reason doesn't seem to persuade you. Nevertheless, a brief recap may help, even though it appears you haven't read much of anything on this thread regarding the question.

Rabid's post #80 put the question into the basics very well. He succinctly and ably explains the cause of non-linear .22LR performance.

Performance is not linear. and cannot be. This is not difficult to understand for anyone, except you, it seems. Velocity variation shot-to-shot produces exponentially greater vertical dispersion with distance, not linear. Wind produces exponentially greater drift with distance, not linear. Flaws in the bullets fly off-track exponentially more with distance, not linear.

If you post again regarding the question about the non-linear nature of .22LR performance, please acknowledge you've read what Rabid has correctly noted. If you can do that but continue to deny the non-linear nature of .22LR behaviour, then perhaps you're beyond redemption. I hope not.

Rabid's explanation leads to the figure of 2.8 with which you seem unable to deal.

Please note and understand that the figure of 2.8 as the multiplier factor for ten-shot group increase, on average from 50 to 100 meters is not arbitrary. As noted above there is reason behind it. If you don't read posts you'll remain ignorant of it's basis in fact.

Nevertheless, here's what was said about that in an earlier post (#67) on this thread.

It's not my personal claim that .22LR accuracy is not linear. It's a well-established fact that .22LR performance gets worse as distance increases and that's not a secret. If you're unaware of that aspect of .22LR performance, it may be due to inexperience, a lack of understanding, or indifference -- or perhaps something else.

For a brief elaboration, when ammo performance at 50 and 100 meters at Lapua testing facilities is compared, the ten shot groups at 100 are on average 2.8 times the size of the exact same ammo performance at 50 meters. The figure of 2.8 the product of a comparison of results in Lapua testing facilities where results for the same ten shots are recorded electronically at both distances. The comparison is of apples to apples because it looks at performance for the exact same rounds of ammo at 50 and 100 meters in windless test tunnels with rifles shot from a fixture or vise.

If it helps, here's further elaboration. A study was done looking at Lapua testing facility data comparing results at 50 and 100 meters, where electronic targets record data with the same ammo at both 50 and 100. The study compared results of many sets of 50 and 100 meter data. It found that on average groups at 100 meters were 2.8 times larger than those at half the distance. The words "on average" are emphasized because it's an average; some results were better and some were worse.

The information here has been previously set out. You choose to ignore or misunderstand or deny it. If you see condescension on my part, imagine the frustration that results from your refusal to read what's already posted.

Rather than offering any evidence whatsoever to support your view that .22LR accuracy is linear, you choose to label those who disagree with your position as moronic and as parrots. You've preferred to steadfastly cling to a ship that you believe is still afloat, but fail to understand is already sunk.

When you don't understand, ask questions. When you disagree, offer reasoned and reliable information. Unfortunately, your posts have done neither.

Edit to add at 5:21 PM Dec. 27: I think this debate is now over.
 
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This is amusing. Nothing about a bullets travel is linear, except theoretical point of impact on the horizontal plane. That’s because a bullets travel and the forced applied to it change with velocity. Since a bullets velocity is always changing so are those forces applied, from itself (think BC for simplicity, hence accuracy degradation) to environmental factors. Graph it to see.

Years ago an accomplished marksman told me that once I figured out bullets don’t fly straight I will be better able to predict where they will impact.

Enjoy your holidays folks. (That’s a subsonic gesture, FWIW)

SCG
 
Indeed, there are those factors you mention, but I was referring to factors directly involving the ammo itself. Inconsistencies in the manufacturing process, bullet seating and crimping, and the components themselves, particularly the bullets and the heels, have the potential to throw asunder otherwise sound expectations and ballistic predictions. Unfortunately, there is no way to anticipate such inconsistencies in unfired ammunition.

Even the best lot tested ammo is going to have outliers and fliers at long range due to those inconsistencies. One is forced to ignore those individual impacts and focus on the group average POI for the shooter to have any confidence in the ballistic predictions. Although, it is up to the shooter to decide what that confidence factor is. Is it the 90% percentile? 80th? or something else?

I suspect it is possible to manufacture perfect 22LR ammo with the use of AI and robotics, but the cost would be so prohibitive that none of us could afford to shoot it.
 
I suspect it is possible to manufacture perfect 22LR ammo with the use of AI and robotics, but the cost would be so prohibitive that none of us could afford to shoot it.

One would think that with advances in robotics and manufacturing efficiencies, the cost of goods would be at an all time low. Better ammo could be made, but the attention to detail and fine-tuning of the equipment doesn't fit the business model. Think about trying to calibrate and make equal all the primer applicators, powder dispensers, casing formers and cutters, bullet seater/crimpers, and constantly monitor for wear and going out of spec during a production run...

Does the best centerfire ammo come out of a factory or the experienced handloader's bench? I'd say the most realistic option for improving rimfire ammo consistency is to enable it to be done at home. I suppose the nature of the priming material is the main reason holding this back. Logic follows, use a single die/fixture for all the rounds in your production run, you no longer have to worry about calibrating multiple units and round-to-round consistency is superior. Meter out your priming compound and powder with the utmost care and precision, MV extreme spread is superior to factory production.
 
Even the best lot tested ammo is going to have outliers and fliers at long range due to those inconsistencies. One is forced to ignore those individual impacts and focus on the group average POI for the shooter to have any confidence in the ballistic predictions. Although, it is up to the shooter to decide what that confidence factor is. Is it the 90% percentile? 80th? or something else?

I suspect it is possible to manufacture perfect 22LR ammo with the use of AI and robotics, but the cost would be so prohibitive that none of us could afford to shoot it.

Yes, even the best lot tested .22LR ammo will have occasional outliers and fliers -- but far fewer of them than random lots. Not every round in brick of ammo can be 100%. Some have more flawed ammo than others. That's the very reason for lot testing. It reveals the hidden flaws that can be much more common in some lots.

Some lots are simply better than others. No one should ever complain about ammo performance after buying a random lot of match ammo. And with many factory rifles, there's a real limit on how well they can shoot. Shooters shouldn't always be quick to blame ammo for rifle limitations.

AI and robotics might help produce better .22LR ammo, but it's not as though the current manufacturing processes aren't computer-assisted wherever possible. The big three ammo manufacuters have not remained wedded to the same techniques and processes that prevailed decades ago.
 
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