Long range bullets

DOUGLAS D said:
So I guess when I relayed that the Matchking showed bad erratic performance on living tissue at 400-600 yards I became a pleader and a naysayer?

Thanks anyway but I'll keep getting my advice from the people who build the Matchking and I'll stick to using it for what its made for.
Good luck finding an endorsment from Sierra on using the Matchking on bear at extended ranges.
If you do then please post their reply here for all of us to read.
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In your 1st sentence are you making this on 1st hand experience?
Just asking, as I know some guys who HAVE tried both SMKs and Amaxs that have had less than stellar results, and I know a good number of guys, myself included who HAVE used both SMKs and Amaxs with excellent results in real world hunting. I think that alot is based on the particul rifle, bullet, distance and velocity combination.

Not always is the manufacturer of any product forthcoming on what a product is best suited for, this can be found with medical, petroleum, automoive and chemicals very easily. For example I doubt Kiwi shoe ploish folks would endorse the use of their product as parting agent for bedding jobs or mould release, but it works. I know there are several unendorsed uses for ######, plastic water bottles seldom have an endorsement for holding the wad in an IED, but we KNOW that works well.
 
Boomer said:
I'm not sure what to make of this. Clearly the OP has many years of successful bear hunting behind him, and now wants to confront the challenge of long range hunting. OK, I get it, but what I don't get is that he doesn't know which bullet to choose. For me this brings his long range shooting credentials into question because to be successful in the long range game, one must first become a proficient long range marksman, and becoming a proficient long range marksman is the prerequisite of long range hunting. The proficient long range marksman has tried enough bullets and loads to know which bullets and what ballistics give him the best opportunity to reach out there. A 500 yard shot is on the near side of long range, for the proficient long range shooter, and it is close enough that several game bullets will produce the accuracy required for a humane kill. Having said that 500 yards I believe represents the ballistic limit of the .308 on big game.

Arranging to kill a bear at 500 is no trick if you are shooting over bait. If you have predetermined your shooting position and can sight in on the exact location of the bait, so much the better. Then hopefully the bear is on the bait at a time when the mirage is manageable. Thus a black bear taken over bait is perhaps the easiest of all big game to shoot a long range. You already know where he will be and your rifle is pre-sighted to that spot.

But as an exercise lets consider the bullet selection for a .308 on a 500 yard bear. I would choose a heavy bullet, and despite some predetermined prejudices I would probably look at a number of 200 gr boat-tail spitzers, both game and match bullets, which when loaded to 2500 will still chug along at 1850 at the 500 yard line. I would then load a selection of those bullets to about 1800 and fire them into wet drill mud to see which produce the most desirable and repeatable terminal performance with a minimum of 12" of penetration. Chances are the bullet that performs the best at 100 yards is the bullet that will perform the worst at 500. Those that produce the terminal performance I want, I would load up to 2500 and see if I could squeeze some reasonable 500 yard 3 shot groups out of them, paying very close attention to see if the cold bore shot was outside of the group. The bullet that produced the best combination of consistent accuracy, nice round groups, and good terminal performance is the bullet I choose.
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I totally agree, well said
 
Boomer said:
I would then load a selection of those bullets to about 1800 and fire them into wet drill mud to see which produce the most desirable and repeatable terminal performance with a minimum of 12" of penetration.
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What is "drill mud"? Is it similar to mine taillings (aka "slimes")?
 
Maybe you want to look into some Berger Hunting VLD's. I only say this because they have the highest BC and a SD for hunting specific bullets. They are the closest to a 'Match' type bullet for hunting as you will get.
I think mysticplayer (Jerry) can get some for you. I would suggest the 210grainers, but you would have to sit down and do some serious load development with your rig, some rifles love them, some hate them. I think your original posting was intended to see what Bullet types and weights MAY be suitable for shots out to 600 yards?
A big bear is still a pretty small dot at 600 yards that will vanish quickly if wounded. Chasing a wounded bear into the thick forest, doesn't seem all that fun for the end of a hunt.
I wouldn't do it cause i get buck fever--a 1/4 inch shake here and a 1/4 inch shake there with slight cross wind here and there, may equal poor shot placement on the ol' brutte.
 
"...600+ yds..." Too far unless you can hit a 9" pie plate, every time, at that distance. Sighted in at 200, a 165 will drop about 50" at 500.
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Wow! 9" at 600yds is like 1.5 MOA. If you can't do that, you should probably take up knitting. I have killed gophers at longer ranges and they are only 2.5" wide.

And 50" of drop at 500 yds is only 10 MOA of elevation. Not exactly a complex problem to solve for a knowledgible shooter.
 
Papaclaude said:
I'm looking to develop some hunting loads for long-range use (600+ yds) on black bear, for my 308. Typically, I use Nosler or Game king 165 gr. bullets, but I wonder if my bullets will be traveling fast enough to expand at that range. Would I be better with a bullet that expands quickly, like the Match King, to ensure proper expansion at those velocities? I would not be taking any shots at less than 600 yd.:confused:
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You can't get closer!? :confused:
 
what he is describing is a technical stunt, not real hunting. Of course, ethics are a personal matter, but those without ethics predictably object to anyone suggesting that they consider some self imposed limits on their behaviour.
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Ah yes, the infamous "real hunting" argument. The users of which almost always don't understand that somewhere out there is another person who thinks what they are doing is unethical and not "real hunting". This cycle continues until we get to the guy who cuts down a yew tree with a hand knapped flint knife to make his own bow and spins his own bow string with the guts of a cat he hand slaughtered. Then he spends a week living off bugs and grass while he stalks within 18" of his prey in order to deliver the perfect shot with his flint tipped arrow ..........

Untill you do that, only then can you call yourself a "real hunter".
 
Gunslinger said:
Ditto, I've personally shot next to a guy shooting a BAR in 300 win mag, using reloads, shooting off a paint can, at 500yards and putting every shot within 6". Looking at the guy you'd think he didn't know what he was doing, relatively beat up gun and not your typical long range rig, ghetto front rest, not the best english skills, ground mat was that blue plastic bubble wrap. BUT when he pulled the trigger every bullet hit it's mark. Never judge someones skills until you've seen them shoot. :)
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Paint cans don't move, animals do and can move right at the moment the guy squeezes the trigger. Then what?

That TV show, on Wild TV, Best of the West that promotes that long range shooting of game animals, pisses me off. You only see the episodes in which they make perfect shots on game. You can be certain they have stuff they cannot show, where animals were not shot cleanly.
That can happen at any yardage! But when you are at close range, the opportunity to then quickly dispatch the animal is much, much better.

Wound an animal at 600 yards (or more) and then it's, WTF!? Ooops...

I am not against long range shooting. I have zero concern if somebody wants to punch paper or steel gongs, whatever at any range. I say give 'er.

This has nothing to do with the rifleman's skill or equipment, I just say stick to inanimate targets for the long range stuff...

I say BS on deliberately shooting at animals at extreme yardage.

I am never going to believe that there isn't an opportunity to work in closer.






My $0.02.
 
OP
You must have an intimate knowledge of long range shooting (and an i-phone app is not sufficient). I understand that you only hunt in 'ideal' conditions and have a great many years of hunting experience. So this begs the question: If ain't broke why change it?

Why is it that you are looking to change your hunting strategy? Not judging you in any way just curious as to why you want to participate in long range hunting?

In either case that is your idea, so that is fine. As for bullet selection, I would most certainly do testing. As you stated, you have four months. Try loading some bullets of different weights: 165 Btips through to 208 Amax and see what works.

Things I would personally look for include:
• bullet on game performance (ballistic gel at 600 yards)
• accuracy and most importantly consistency (effects high/low light shooting)
• temperature affects on velocity (varget)

As for the ballistic gel, if you can do that it would be great. But something I would recommend is after you have a rib dinner one night, save the bones and put them into the gel so as to better represent the problem. You may be surprised to see what happens when trying to shoot through a rib cage.
 
Boomer said:
I'm not sure what to make of this. Clearly the OP has many years of successful bear hunting behind him, and now wants to confront the challenge of long range hunting. OK, I get it, but what I don't get is that he doesn't know which bullet to choose. For me this brings his long range shooting credentials into question because to be successful in the long range game, one must first become a proficient long range marksman, as becoming a proficient long range marksman is the prerequisite of long range hunting. The proficient long range marksman has tried enough bullets and loads to know which bullets and what ballistics give him the best opportunity to reach out there. A 500 yard shot is on the near side of long range, for the proficient long range shooter, and it is close enough that several game bullets will produce the accuracy required for a humane kill. Having said that 500 yards I believe represents the ballistic limit of the .308 on big game.

Arranging to kill a bear at 500 is no trick if you are shooting over bait. If you have predetermined your shooting position and can sight in on the exact location of the bait, so much the better. Then hopefully the bear is on the bait at a time when the mirage is manageable. Thus a black bear taken over bait is perhaps the easiest of all big game to shoot a long range in that you already know where he will be and your rifle is pre-sighted to that spot.

But as an exercise lets consider the bullet selection for a .308 on a 500 yard bear. I would choose a heavy bullet, and despite some predetermined prejudices I would probably look at a number of 200 gr boat-tail spitzers, both game and match bullets, which when loaded to 2500 will still chug along at 1850 at the 500 yard line. I would then load a selection of those bullets to about 1800 and fire them into wet drill mud to see which produce the most desirable and repeatable terminal performance with a minimum of 12" of penetration. Chances are the bullet that performs the best at 100 yards is the bullet that will perform the worst at 500. Those that produce the terminal performance I want, I would load up to 2500 and see if I could squeeze some reasonable 500 yard 3 shot groups out of them, paying very close attention to see if the cold bore shot was outside of the group. The bullet that produced the best combination of consistent accuracy, nice round groups, and good terminal performance is the bullet I choose.
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I remain opposed to it, but this post pretty much sums up the correct way to go about it...
 
Long range

Bandits said:
OP
You must have an intimate knowledge of long range shooting (and an i-phone app is not sufficient). I understand that you only hunt in 'ideal' conditions and have a great many years of hunting experience. So this begs the question: If ain't broke why change it?

Why is it that you are looking to change your hunting strategy? Not judging you in any way just curious as to why you want to participate in long range hunting?

In either case that is your idea, so that is fine. As for bullet selection, I would most certainly do testing. As you stated, you have four months. Try loading some bullets of different weights: 165 Btips through to 208 Amax and see what works.

Things I would personally look for include:
• bullet on game performance (ballistic gel at 600 yards)
• accuracy and most importantly consistency (effects high/low light shooting)
• temperature affects on velocity (varget)

As for the ballistic gel, if you can do that it would be great. But something I would recommend is after you have a rib dinner one night, save the bones and put them into the gel so as to better represent the problem. You may be surprised to see what happens when trying to shoot through a rib cage.
Click to expand...

First of all, I don't hunt under "ideal" conditions. I only pull the trigger if I am 100% certain of making a shot. Second, my question was not as to which load I should use. I was asking if anyone had experience with terminal ballistics at that range. I do have several loads that work quite well at long range, but I want to make sure my bullet will expand properly when it hits. (I hadn't thought of the 200 gr. + bullets, but I will give them a try). Third, the bears would not be shot over bait, but when feeding in blueberry patches. If you have seen and studied bears, you will notice that when they move to a new bush, they spend more than enough time to take a good shot and allow the bullet to travel to them before they move away.On average, they stay on a particular bush for about a minute before moving on. Also, as I mentioned before, I will be using a rangefinder, to take any guesswork out of range estimation, because I know full well that being off by relatively few yards can make a big difference on where the bullet strikes.

To all the naysayers out there, let me say that IF I decide that I have a load and the confidence to try shooting at bears in those conditions, I will NOT pull the trigger unless I am 100% sure that every trigger pull will result in a DEAD bear.
 
^ Papaclaude, what rangefinder are you using? I have a Leica 900 and I find there has to be an ideal background for it to work at ranges over 500 yards.

I have ranged objects to 900 yards only one time, which is the supposed limit of the gizmo. I find I need a fairly large flat surface for it to work.
 
Rangefinder

Demonical said:
^ Papaclaude, what rangefinder are you using? I have a Leica 900 and I find there has to be an ideal background for it to work at ranges over 500 yards.

I have ranged objects to 900 yards only one time, which is the supposed limit of the gizmo. I find I need a fairly large flat surface for it to work.
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I'll be using a Bushnell Scout. It's supposed to be good to 1000yd. If I find that I can't get a good reading, I'll pack it up or move closer. Thanx for the info on bullets.
 
Interesting read about how many people are against long range hunting.

This is for reference of how far 600 yards is... Can you see my 36"X36" white paper at 600 yards ???
DSC_0004.jpg

Its about the size of a black bear...

What about now at 55mm of zoom
DSC_0005.jpg

Still looks like about the size of an 8.5x11 piece of paper.

I have shot 10 shot groups of 1 Moa at 600 yards consistantly with my rifle setup. These groups where shot in wind and weather... summer and winter.
The only way I would take the shot is after firing several rounds to verify that my settings are correct and have the proper equiptment to do the job... if your goal is to get a bear at 600 yards make sure you have the tools and skills nessary to do the job.
Personally after doing alot of long range shooting this year its possible to achive what your trying to do.

You need to remember that the bullet is going to take about .8 of second to get to your target so you want to make sure the bear is not going to move for a while.

I found it funny that some people would call the shot off if it got a bit windy... I have never been out shooting or hunting when its been dead calm and no wind... some people I guess dont know that you can account for wind. I would have to question these peoples long range shooting ability right off the bat. There is a thing called a wind guage and you can account for the wind... I guess they call off F class and tactical matches when its gets a bit windy out.

Bascially I have a chart taped to my scope cap that shows the exact windage and elevation I have to dial for the range I am shooting, this is not the kinda shot that can be made with gear you buy at canadian tire a 3x9x40 bushnell wont do the trick you need to have a scope you can dial and that is 100% repeatable... and if your knowledgable about mill dots it comes in handy when you have a target on the move or in between ranges.

The chart started out as a computed ballitics table for the exact load and rifle and was adjusted over months of target shooting... I know that the rifle and round combo are going to shoot where the scope chart tells it too... how I know this is after fireing hundreds of rounds with that chart and equiptment.

I want to recommend that my ballistics calculator gives optimum game weight usings 308 168 grain bullets traveling at 2700fps... of about 200Lbs I dont know how it comes up with this figure it just spits it out.

Realistically you might want to try and run the different bullets your planning on using thru a ballisitics program and find the one with the most energy and velocity that is practical for your application

Where I hunt we only can use shotguns so long range is about 200 yards with premium sabots and rifled barrels and leupold scopes... I also practice with my shotgun year round.. I know my limits off hand are about 125 yards and off a rest 200 because that is the limits of the slugs. I have yet to come upon a field condition where a rest has been used or 200 yard shot was nessary and complete sucessfully...

Bit about my 600 yard rig.
Remington 700
Harris swivel bipod, Adjustable rear monopod
Leupold 8.5X25X50 Long Range
Leupold Rings and Mounts
Winchester Brass, Hornady 155 and 168 Amax bullets.
Military grade laser range finder 1500 yards max target
Hand held weather station with built in wind guage.

I normally shoot off a bench or prone
 
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DOUGLAS D said:
So I guess when I relayed that the Matchking showed bad erratic performance on living tissue at 400-600 yards I became a pleader and a naysayer?
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Yes

"Talk to the real practitioners.."??
Who would that be?
Yourself possibly?
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No, not me, I'm still working up to it. Talk to Rick at ATRS whom I knnw for a fact uses a SMK (albeit a 300gr .338") for LR Hunting with no ill result.

Thanks anyway but I'll keep getting my advice from the people who build the Matchking and I'll stick to using it for what its made for.
Good luck finding an endorsment from Sierra on using the Matchking on bear at extended ranges.
If you do then please post their reply here for all of us to read.
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I'll take an endorsement from Rick. He uses it and has great success, so I consider it adequate, when used by the right person. Similar to using a 243 for large-bodied deer, the SMK is a bullet for a real specialist.

The funny thing, and kinda sad, is how enraged people get over the subject. Then insults get hurled and it turns into a gong show. I think that Demonical has probably shot more bullets into his bullet testing box than most other members have tested and would take his advice to the bank when it comes to bullet performance. But I also know that Rick at ATRS wouldn't BS about the performance he has seen and has probably shot more living things at long rabnge than anyone on the board. Two opposite sides of the argument both with a great deal of knowledge. I know what side of it I'm on, but I don't discount either of their opinions or positions.
 
Demonical said:
^ What's a 'military' grade rangefinder? Got a brand name?
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newcon-optik.com
We cover the whole niche offering devices with rated distances from 1200 meters up to 25 kilometers. Sophisticated high-end models measure distance, speed, height, elevation, and azimuth angles and can export this data to a computer.

Mine is about 5-10 years old... I also have a bushnell which I use to cross reference
 
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