Long Range Hunting - Noobie

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thebiguno

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Hi all, new poster here,

I have been hunting for years, mostly deer and sometimes elk. I use a 30-06 (Remington 700, about 15 years old) with a 3-9x Leopold scope (no adjustment turrets). I shoot with bipods, frequently from prone. I reload my own rounds, so have the ability to tweak things as needed. I currently sight in to 200 yards, which gives me pretty much hold-on accuracy (covers a deer's vitals) between 0 and 250 yards; by holding a few inches high I am fine shooting out to about 350 or so. However much longer than that, and I am out of luck.

I would be interested in upgrading my skills and equipment (within a tight budget) in order to get enough accuracy to consistently harvest deer out to about 500 yards, and maybe elk to 600. Is that a reasonable goal, or am I out to lunch? (I know the snipers here can shoot targets out to 1000 yards, but a target is different from a deer... I have never wounded and lost an animal and have no intentions of starting, so if I take shots out to 500 I would want to have a very high hit rate at that distance.)

Assuming this is reasonable, what approach should I take in my upgrades? I assume that an upgraded scope is probably the highest priority. What options do I have, in and around the $500 mark? Would a scope on my current setup be enough (with lots of practice, of course), to achieve this?

I am sorry if this has been covered repeatedly (I'm sure it has), but from looking over the posts here most people seem to be mostly interested in targets out to insane distances; hunting at more moderate distances doesn't seem to be covered as much.

Thanks for any and all advice.

Cheers
 
if you are wanting to shoot elk out to 600 yards something that you might want to consider is does your cartridge have enough knock down power at that distance to do the necessary damage to bring the animal down and will the bullet mushroom/expand properly with the energy that it still has. i have heard of this happening on longer range shots where the bullet doesn't have enough jam left to function as it normally would at the closer distances. I don't know much about a 30-06 ballistics but it is something i would keep in mind when trying to reach out a little further. a friend of mine took a elk at 400+ yds but it was a head shot (the guy is scary good with a rifle). just food for thought, ill be keeping tabs on this thread to see what the more knowledgeable guys have to say as well
 
I think that glass and practice is what would be the biggest benefit.

Can you squeeze a bit more for a budget for optics?You are just touching where your options could start to open up, probably Zeiss, Vortex, Leupold , Sightron would have the optics to get you hits at the ranges you desire but you may want to have better resolution and clarity to tune your skills.

I think a 14x would be doable with a nice clean somewhat fine reticle.You may want to go higher if your ability can benefit from it.

The more I shoot, the more I like magnification.

Rapid Z 600 in a Zeiss is a fit for your requirements but will be will above your budget but will eliminate holdovers and turret adjustments once calibrated.
 
I could probably take a bit more time and save up a bit more. I am not in a huge rush; I don't think that I would have time to do all this before hunting season this year, so would probably not be purchasing anything until December / January at the earliest. I just want to get an idea of what is entailed here, and if this is something which I can reasonably accomplish, and then start to get all my ducks in a row.

Looking around, I see the "Bushnell Elite Tactical Scopes" range, in particular the 5-15x40 mildot one, that looks interesting and is just under $500 (to be fair, this is one that I had found prior to posting this, which is what helped me to think that a $500 budget may be reasonable). I understand the Bushnell Elite series are reasonably well reviewed, and 15x is at least a bit of a step up from my 9x one I am shooting now. That said, I am a proponent of 'buy it right the first time', so if spending an extra $300 gets me a noticeable, real world improvement, I am fine with that; I just don't want to spend the extra money for name only (I don't care what the brand is, as long as the accuracy and durability is there).

Please excuse the n00b question, but when you say, about the Zeiss Rapid Z 600, that it "will eliminate holdovers and turret adjustments once calibrated", what do you mean? Are you saying that once it is calibrated, you can set a distance (rather than MOA adjustments) on the turrets? (I don't see how that is possible with a mechanical system... I would think that there would have to be some ballistics calculations specific to your gun to do that...) Or something else entirely? I was under the impression that all scopes (other than 22LR specific ones, where the trajectory is somewhat known and can thus have actual distances marked) would have turrets which adjust in MOA, and you need to remember / keep a lookup table at various distances, so that when you see an animal at ### yards, you can adjust the scope accordingly. Am I completely out to lunch here? (I have only shot with scopes which had the sighting-in adjustments, never a field-adjustable turret).

Thank you!

Kelly Timoffee said:
I think that glass and practice is what would be the biggest benefit.

Can you squeeze a bit more for a budget for optics?You are just touching where your options could start to open up, probably Zeiss, Vortex, Leupold , Sightron would have the optics to get you hits at the ranges you desire but you may want to have better resolution and clarity to tune your skills.

I think a 14x would be doable with a nice clean somewhat fine reticle.You may want to go higher if your ability can benefit from it.

The more I shoot, the more I like magnification.

Rapid Z 600 in a Zeiss is a fit for your requirements but will be will above your budget but will eliminate holdovers and turret adjustments once calibrated.
Click to expand...
 
yotawheeler said:
if you are wanting to shoot elk out to 600 yards something that you might want to consider is does your cartridge have enough knock down power at that distance to do the necessary damage to bring the animal down and will the bullet mushroom/expand properly with the energy that it still has. i have heard of this happening on longer range shots where the bullet doesn't have enough jam left to function as it normally would at the closer distances. I don't know much about a 30-06 ballistics but it is something i would keep in mind when trying to reach out a little further. a friend of mine took a elk at 400+ yds but it was a head shot (the guy is scary good with a rifle). just food for thought, ill be keeping tabs on this thread to see what the more knowledgeable guys have to say as well
Click to expand...

I will definitely keep that in mind. According to some random ballistics site, a 30-06 shooting 180 gr bullets (what I shoot) at 2700 fps muzzle velocity (slower than my loads) has 1354 ft lbs of energy at 500 yards and just over 1000 by 650. I'll have to check my notes from the last time I chronographed my load, but I seem to recall that it was about 3200 fps. Assuming I am not "smoking something good" in that memory, that equates to about 2000 ft lbs of energy at 500 yards and 1500 at 650 yards. Now I have no idea how much is required for a clean kill (and of course, a vital shot is going to be far more important than raw energy - a gut shot at 100 yards may not drop an animal, while a heart shot at 500 could, if you get my meaning)... but at least there are some hard numbers now.

Thanks!
 
The rapid-z reticle is a ballistic reticle (it has holdover ticks or hash marks).
Based on your bullet muzzle velocity, weight and ballistic coefficient you can calculate (and memorize) the distance each hash mark corresponds to.
But for long range, the most important skill is reading the wind speed and direction.
 
thebiguno said:
I will definitely keep that in mind. According to some random ballistics site, a 30-06 shooting 180 gr bullets (what I shoot) at 2700 fps muzzle velocity (slower than my loads) has 1354 ft lbs of energy at 500 yards and just over 1000 by 650. I'll have to check my notes from the last time I chronographed my load, but I seem to recall that it was about 3200 fps. Assuming I am not "smoking something good" in that memory, that equates to about 2000 ft lbs of energy at 500 yards and 1500 at 650 yards. Now I have no idea how much is required for a clean kill (and of course, a vital shot is going to be far more important than raw energy - a gut shot at 100 yards may not drop an animal, while a heart shot at 500 could, if you get my meaning)... but at least there are some hard numbers now.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Better check ur notes or your chrony, a 180gn bullet @ 3200 fps is well beyond the capability of a 30-06, even a 300 wsm would not get you to 3200 fps!
 
The Zeiss Rapid Z reticle allows you to tune your scope to your load.Since it is a second focal plane scope the reticle will change it's size/measurements so to speak in relation to the target imagw when the magnification is changed.



You go to the Ziess website , plug in your load data and it calculates the magnification you need to use the yardage indicators in the reticle(yes it is a hold over but with a specific aiming point).On paper it gets very close or will tell you your load data is out of range.You can go play with it and see what type of load would work with each reticle.

These do work.They are the best compensating reticle on the market IMO.

You will also have a step up in build quality and optical quality over the Bushnell if you go this route.You may be able to find the first Conquest line with these still around at a decent price as they have been replaced with a new line up.



thebiguno said:
I could probably take a bit more time and save up a bit more. I am not in a huge rush; I don't think that I would have time to do all this before hunting season this year, so would probably not be purchasing anything until December / January at the earliest. I just want to get an idea of what is entailed here, and if this is something which I can reasonably accomplish, and then start to get all my ducks in a row.

Looking around, I see the "Bushnell Elite Tactical Scopes" range, in particular the 5-15x40 mildot one, that looks interesting and is just under $500 (to be fair, this is one that I had found prior to posting this, which is what helped me to think that a $500 budget may be reasonable). I understand the Bushnell Elite series are reasonably well reviewed, and 15x is at least a bit of a step up from my 9x one I am shooting now. That said, I am a proponent of 'buy it right the first time', so if spending an extra $300 gets me a noticeable, real world improvement, I am fine with that; I just don't want to spend the extra money for name only (I don't care what the brand is, as long as the accuracy and durability is there).

Please excuse the n00b question, but when you say, about the Zeiss Rapid Z 600, that it "will eliminate holdovers and turret adjustments once calibrated", what do you mean? Are you saying that once it is calibrated, you can set a distance (rather than MOA adjustments) on the turrets? (I don't see how that is possible with a mechanical system... I would think that there would have to be some ballistics calculations specific to your gun to do that...) Or something else entirely? I was under the impression that all scopes (other than 22LR specific ones, where the trajectory is somewhat known and can thus have actual distances marked) would have turrets which adjust in MOA, and you need to remember / keep a lookup table at various distances, so that when you see an animal at ### yards, you can adjust the scope accordingly. Am I completely out to lunch here? (I have only shot with scopes which had the sighting-in adjustments, never a field-adjustable turret).

Thank you!
Click to expand...
 
For my long range "hunting" rifle I choose a Vortex Viper HS LR 2.5-10x32 FFP scope.

If you buy decent glass then you really don't need higher magnification then 10 power for 650 yard shots. In a hunting situation you can really benefit from the wider field of view.

You have to spend a lot of time shooting to the distances and past the distances that you want to shoot to find your breaking point. I know that at 300 yards from a good rest like my pack and in an unlimited time situation I have very close to a 100% chance that I can hit my target. If I push out to 500 yards then I would give myself some where between 90% and 50% depending on the day. So I may or may not attempt a 500 yard shot.

You may want to look into some bullets that are designed to be used on game at long range. Berger has a line of hunting VLD style bullets that are made to expand at lower velocities.
 
Short answer, No
Long answer, Not without an equipment upgrade. I would go to a 300 win mag or a 7mm mag or bigger to hunt elk at 600 yards. Your 30-06 is running out of power fast at those distances and unless your handloads are making really tiny groups, you're using premium bullets and you're having a great day and you place that shot perfectly you may just end up on your first long wounded animal chase.
The 30-06 can definitely get a bullet out there but what does it have left for knock down power on an animal as large as an elk that far out?
 
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roberti11 said:
Better check ur notes or your chrony, a 180gn bullet @ 3200 fps is well beyond the capability of a 30-06, even a 300 wsm would not get you to 3200 fps!
Click to expand...

Yah, I must be remembering wrong. It was a few years back, and I can't find my notes for the life of me. I guess re-measuring is another thing I will have to add to my list. :)

Thanks
 
cr5 said:
Short answer, No
Long answer, Not wihout an equipment upgrade. I would go to a 300 win mag or a 7mm mag or bigger to hunt elk at 600 yards. Your 30-06 is running out of power fast at those distances and unless your handloads are making really tiny groups, you're using premium bullets and you're having a great day and you place that shot perfectly you may just end up on your first long wounded animal chase.
The 30-06 can definitely get a bullet out there but what does it have left for knock down power on an animal as large as an elk that far out?
Click to expand...

Good to know, thanks for the comments. Perhaps I will adjust my expectations a bit more, then...

I guess more research is definitely needed.

Cheers
 
Kelly Timoffee said:
The Zeiss Rapid Z reticle allows you to tune your scope to your load.Since it is a second focal plane scope the reticle will change it's size/measurements so to speak in relation to the target imagw when the magnification is changed.



You go to the Ziess website , plug in your load data and it calculates the magnification you need to use the yardage indicators in the reticle(yes it is a hold over but with a specific aiming point).On paper it gets very close or will tell you your load data is out of range.You can go play with it and see what type of load would work with each reticle.

These do work.They are the best compensating reticle on the market IMO.

You will also have a step up in build quality and optical quality over the Bushnell if you go this route.You may be able to find the first Conquest line with these still around at a decent price as they have been replaced with a new line up.
Click to expand...

Thanks, the pictures really help. I'll definitely have to do some more research on this... if nothing else, this thread has taught me how little I actually know about VLD stuff. :)

Cheers
 
Don't discount your 30-06 just yet.

There are some low drag bullet options out there that will keep you in the game.You hand load so taking advantage of premium components and performance is at your disposal.

The bigger is better scenario isn't like it was 20 or even 10 years ago with large low efficiency cartridges.

We have better projectiles designed for more specific uses and powders that are much more effective pushing that bullet out and doing it with less waste of energy.

Maybe read up on Noslers long range accubond bullet, or swift scirocco , both dandy down range and tough bullets.
 
You need to get a 20 MOA scope base. With a tapered base your 3 X 9 Leupold will easily get you to one thousand yards. You will need low drag bullets 175 - 210 gr. Work on a good accurate load and record all your data. Shooting out to 400 yds will be quite easy. 500 yds and further is where the tapered base will be put to use. Just keep pushing distance and accuracy.
 
Chinbullco said:
You need to get a 20 MOA scope base. With a tapered base your 3 X 9 Leupold will easily get you to one thousand yards. You will need low drag bullets 175 - 210 gr. Work on a good accurate load and record all your data. Shooting out to 400 yds will be quite easy. 500 yds and further is where the tapered base will be put to use. Just keep pushing distance and accuracy.
Click to expand...

Now this is very interesting to me... I would much rather spend the money on ammo for practice rather than a new scope; but how do you aim at such distances? The scope I have now does not have field adjustable turrets (you set it with a screwdriver or something when you sight in, but it is not meant for changing on the fly when shooting), nor does it have mil dots, etc. It is just a simple cross hair.

Thanks!
 
That is the conundrum when wanting to shoot at varying distances , with a regular cross hair you will have to zero your rifle at distance "X" and get VERY good and hold over and under.

You will get a zero at the distance you want , but when mr. elk pops out at 350, now what? ;)

This is the reason I went with the Rapid Z for my varmint/coyote set up , sight rifle in once, then use corresponding cross hair, you will still miss if you don't know the distance, but target acquisition and retention is big pay off with that reticle.No need to move rifle, or adjust turret or guess on hold over.

Mil-Dots will work also, look at some of Sightrons offerings in the SII series. I purchased a 6.5-20 x 50 with mildots for just over $650 I believe, works very well on my HMR.

You can also use this system to distance your target once you understand how they work, so you will have a range finder and hold over points in one optic.



thebiguno said:
Now this is very interesting to me... I would much rather spend the money on ammo for practice rather than a new scope; but how do you aim at such distances? The scope I have now does not have field adjustable turrets (you set it with a screwdriver or something when you sight in, but it is not meant for changing on the fly when shooting), nor does it have mil dots, etc. It is just a simple cross hair.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
 
Look at the .30-06 ballistics for the bullet weight you use at 500 yards(suggest you sight in 4" high at 100 with a 165 vs trying to hold over too). .30-06 bullet weights do not have sufficient energy at 500(963 ft/lbs for a 165 and drops 53.2") for deer, never mind at 600. Neither does a .300 or 7mm mag(both run around 1375 ft/lbs at 500 with about 45" drop with a 180), but they're better than an '06.
Plus you'd need to be able to hit a 9" pie plate every time at those distances.
In any case, hunting is not about taking the longest shot possible. It's about killing the game humanely.
 
What are you guys thinking is the needed ft/lbs of bullet energy needed to "knock down" an elk? I'm asking because I don't know what is commonly considered enough energy.
 
thebiguno said:
Now this is very interesting to me... I would much rather spend the money on ammo for practice rather than a new scope; but how do you aim at such distances? The scope I have now does not have field adjustable turrets (you set it with a screwdriver or something when you sight in, but it is not meant for changing on the fly when shooting), nor does it have mil dots, etc. It is just a simple cross hair.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Best way for you to increase distance is bump you rifle's to zero to 300 yards. Under the vertical cap there's an adjustable ring. Use that ring to index your zero so you can re-zero after shooting at longer ranges. One scope that works fine for long range is the Leupold Mark AR 4-12X40. Cost of this scope is less than $500.00. It has a zero lock-out that can be set where-ever you want it set, so after dialing up you dial back until turret stops. With this scope just mark your come-ups (turret index) and record them for future reference. The scope you have won't be as easy to use but it will get you shooting long range.
 
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