Long Range Hunting - Noobie

cr5 said:
If you read the previous posts myself and a couple others are saying that the 30-06 is a little on the light side to be shooting an elk at 500+ yards and making an ethical and humane kill. The 338 Lapua was a suggestion I made if he wanted to be able to shoot out that far or farther and know that as long as he placed the shot well the critter wasn't going far. The 300 and 7mm Win mag were both also suggested as an improvement over the 30-06 for longer range shots.

If you had read the posts you would also know he was asking about elk at 600 yards not 400-500 yards. Elk at 600 yards could easily turn into 700 yards without excellent range estimating ability or the use of a high end rangefinder. I say high end because cheap rangefinders have such a wide beam you never really know how far the object you are pointing at really is because the beam could be bouncing off something else.

Anyhow.......

He asked for opinions and just like you don't agree with mine I think you would be a fool to try to take an elk at 600 yards with a 30-06 and a 3-9x40 scope. You would be nearing the minimum amount of velocity to get proper bullet expansion and penetration and without absolutely perfect shot placement you risk wounding the animal and chasing it for hours trying to get a second shot.

As I stated earlier the 30-06 can easily place a bullet out that far but it's far from an ideal cartridge for large game beyond 500 yards.
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Thank you for a very informative education on range finders.

The 30-06 will do fine on the ranges he asked about if one does their homework like has been suggested. A 185 berger hunting bullet at 2700ish muzzle velocity will still be above the 1800fps recommended minimum expansion and carry about 1300 ft lbs of energy out to 600yards. That seems ethical and humane to me if one was up on their skill set? No? If you read my post you would see that I have the same opinion as you (I think this might be a rare occasion) in regards to scope selection.

Further more if you had read my post you would have a hard time pointing out where I disagreed with you? You may actually see that I was pointing out how far off the original topic things had strayed.

In the op there was mention to a "tight budget", although it is quite obvious that if one was equally proficient with your lapua as an 06 that it would likely be a much better choice but where would that fit into the budget?

Anyhow......
 
Some days you just can't get close to that one animal you want.

Why not do like the OP and ask advice and see if he can strengthen some skills to make those difficult shots you would pass on a reality?

Not a thing to criticize here, the subject was approached with total regard for proper research before attempting the feat.

Kind of shocked, this thread pretty much stayed on topic especially with long range hunting being the subject. ;)
 
.284 said:
Thank you for a very informative education on range finders.

The 30-06 will do fine on the ranges he asked about if one does their homework like has been suggested. A 185 berger hunting bullet at 2700ish muzzle velocity will still be above the 1800fps recommended minimum expansion and carry about 1300 ft lbs of energy out to 600yards. That seems ethical and humane to me if one was up on their skill set? No? If you read my post you would see that I have the same opinion as you (I think this might be a rare occasion) in regards to scope selection.

Further more if you had read my post you would have a hard time pointing out where I disagreed with you? You may actually see that I was pointing out how far off the original topic things had strayed.

In the op there was mention to a "tight budget", although it is quite obvious that if one was equally proficient with your lapua as an 06 that it would likely be a much better choice but where would that fit into the budget?

Anyhow......
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Sorry, been getting frustrated with some of the comments in this thread.

If he could place the shot with the Berger hunting bullet then yes, sure it could do the job. I'm pointing out that with a 3-9x40 that would be nearly impossible to do regularly past 500 yards.

Tight budget? Ya my 338 will probably never be in the budget. I have close to $10K into that rifle with glass. There are cheaper options when he's ready though and for 500+ yards on large game I wouldn't use anything smaller.
 
.284 said:
A 185 berger hunting bullet at 2700ish muzzle velocity will still be above the 1800fps recommended minimum expansion and carry about 1300 ft lbs of energy out to 600yards. That seems ethical and humane to me if one was up on their skill set?
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Where did you find this info?
 
cr5 said:
Sorry, been getting frustrated with some of the comments in this thread.

If he could place the shot with the Berger hunting bullet then yes, sure it could do the job. I'm pointing out that with a 3-9x40 that would be nearly impossible to do regularly past 500 yards.

Tight budget? Ya my 338 will probably never be in the budget. I have close to $10K into that rifle with glass. There are cheaper options when he's ready though and for 500+ yards on large game I wouldn't use anything smaller.
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All good.
 
Shooter ----/ said:
Where did you find this info?
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I wish I could remember but that is what I have used for years. I'll have a look around the Berger website and some other places and see if I can find a reference

Here is an apparent email from Berger that I found on another site

I also got an email from Walt, specifically for the 168, 175 and 185 30 cal bullets.


In a message dated 4/11/2008 3:50:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time,

Hi Mark,
Adequate expansion is achieved above 1825 fps.
Walt Berger
Berger Bullets
Technical Adviser


Hello Walt,

I was wondering if you could provide me with the minimum performance velocities of the 30 cal 168, 175 and 185 VLD bullets for expansion on game.

Thanks,

Mark
 
I looked around a bit on Berger bullet website and couldn't find any data like that. I'd be curious to know what velocities are needed for all the different bullets they make.
 
Using the 1825fps that they gave you for those 30cal bullets, my 6SLR would be good out to 940yards if they made a hybrid hunting bullet.
 
.284 said:
I wish I could remember but that is what I have used for years. I'll have a look around the Berger website and some other places and see if I can find a reference

Here is an apparent email from Berger that I found on another site

I also got an email from Walt, specifically for the 168, 175 and 185 30 cal bullets.


In a message dated 4/11/2008 3:50:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time,

Hi Mark,
Adequate expansion is achieved above 1825 fps.
Walt Berger
Berger Bullets
Technical Adviser


Hello Walt,

I was wondering if you could provide me with the minimum performance velocities of the 30 cal 168, 175 and 185 VLD bullets for expansion on game.

Thanks,

Mark
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Berger jackets are the thinnest of any bullet with "hunting" on the box. They will expand down to 1400fps. Test it yourself. Definitely not a bullet I would want for higher velocity impacts but way out there.... good stuff.

Consider the following generated by JBM so you can play along:

30cal 210gr VLD Berger G7 BC .323. Muzzle velocity 2600fps. 600yds velocity 1837fps. Energy 1573ft.lbs Drift 10mph 23.3"

30cal hrn 180gr SST Muzzle velocity 2950fps 600yds velocity 1863 fps Energy 1388ft.lbs Drift 10mph 28"

Which do you think would be a better set up for that 600yds shot?

Anyone care to guess what chamberings were used for this illustration?

Making decisions simply based on the chambering is definitely not ideal. There are so much that has changed in the last 5 yrs wrt bullet performance.

Consider ALL parameters... the results will surprise you.

As for optics, clarity and resolution go a long ways to letting you see and engage targets at LR. I have no issue engaging a fig 11 sized target at 600m with a SIII1-7x24 scope. Is this an ideal LR scope? Not a hope but you can certainly get it done if needed.

Another example... SII Big Sky 3-9X42. I can see the grout lines on a chimney over 700yds from my office.

With quality optics, high mag may not be necessary to take shots on large objects. Can it be helpful? yes and no

YMMV

Jerry


My 223 with 90gr VLD and BT bullets at 500m and milk jugs. Muzzle velocity was 2800fps. Bergers expand violently at very low impact velocities
 
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To the OP, you will need to practice and develop loads. If you change your caliber, barrel, rifle, scope, etc, you will be starting your learning curve all over again. I have been considering building an F-open 30-06 because it is capable of long range accuracy, and has excellent barrel life. Choose your bullet wisely and have fun!
 
Another lower cost scope that I would like to check out is the new nightforce SHV 4-14. I've found higher magnification great for load work up at 300 yards but not really needed for long range plinking if you want to see your hits. The other day I was out over 1600 yards and wanted to spot my hits in conjunction with my spotter and turned my power to where I thought I could get back on target after the recoil in time to see the splash. Turns out I was doing just fine making hits on 24ish inch targets on 12-14 power. Makes me think that somewhere around 10x with good glass and eye relief would be suitable for larger targets like deer or elk at 500ish yards or more.
I did think that the Berger hunting vld's would likely expand below 1800fps and with the heavier for caliber bullets that the energy would be there as well but I've not taken a hunting shot where velocity was even approaching 1800 fps.

Thanks for the info Jerry
 
We have shot Bergers very far away and "smoked" them on gongs and rocks. They expand at VERY LOW velocities. This is mixed blessings.

Before hunting, consider lining up 3 to 4 water filled milk jugs and hitting them with the bullets of choice at the distances considered. Like my video, see what the bullets are actually doing. All the internet babble only goes so far, prove to yourself what will or will not work for your needs.

First off, if you can't hit the milk jugs, that should tell you something.

Then when you hit them, you can see exactly what your bullet can offer.

Assume nothing, test everything. You will have more confidence in the field and more importantly, KNOW where your limits are.

Jerry
 
Thanks Jerry. You put it all into text very nicely.

I was trying to lead into the fact that smaller calibers than 30-06 can deliver past what ranges were being thrown around on here. After stepping back and re-reading the thread, I see it would have taken me a long time to draw this out.
 
cr5 said:
Not knowing the difference between a brake and a break kinda knocks any credibility to your statement into the this guy don't know shat department and is quickly disregarded.

Then as I stated he should not extend his range until he can afford to upgrade his gear to something better suited to long range hunting of animals as large and powerful as an elk.
If he's capable of getting within 300-350 yards as he obviously is since he says he has done it then keep filling tags at that distance until he can afford gear better suited to long range hunting.
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You are for real?
It is a sad situation when the members have to act in a more controlled and mature fashion than the people who run the site.
I must say, this is a first in my experience on sites related to firearms.
 
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Chinbullco said:
To the OP, you will need to practice and develop loads. If you change your caliber, barrel, rifle, scope, etc, you will be starting your learning curve all over again. I have been considering building an F-open 30-06 because it is capable of long range accuracy, and has excellent barrel life. Choose your bullet wisely and have fun!
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Consider the improved -06 simply to keep from going insane maintaining the brass.

Sharp shoulders are nice.

30Gibbs is alot of fun

Jerry
 
Shooter ----/ said:
Thanks Jerry. You put it all into text very nicely.

I was trying to lead into the fact that smaller calibers than 30-06 can deliver past what ranges were being thrown around on here. After stepping back and re-reading the thread, I see it would have taken me a long time to draw this out.
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If you can create the same internal trauma of known and trusted SR combos at LR, whatever you use or call it is moot. The problem is the ability to deliver that level of trauma way out there. That is where intelligent use of modern options can really help.

But that will never overcome shooter skill... this is still hunting.

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
Consider the improved -06 simply to keep from going insane maintaining the brass.

Sharp shoulders are nice.

30Gibbs is alot of fun

Jerry
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Improved case' only drawback is fire-forming. 30 Gibbs great performance, limited load die availability. Standard 30-06, according to German Salazar, is good for 11-13 firings if great care is taken resizing and pressure is kept at or below max.
 
Dies from the 30-06 can be easily adapted. As can improved body dies.

Forming brass is another step but not that hard to do and the increased case volume does come in handy.

30-06 is a very accurate rd. but brass flow will be high given the taper and slope of the shoulder. If you are willing to keep up with maintenance, it works very nicely. I may put an improved '06 together for F open fun.

See how the fall goes. Off topic ...

Jerry
 
I agree with the effects of the Bergers on soft tissue, and their long range accuracy,that cannot be disputed.

In my mind the flaw would be a hit that encounters bone, to me those fragile bullets would be everywhere except where they needed to be to do the job of a proper kill.I haven't used or tried them on long range for game, I likely won't as I have chosen my "perfect" bullet for the conditions I will encounter hunting.

Like others have stated you have to decide what you want to have as an end result.

Another projectile for longerish ranges with a bit more toughness than the Bergers would be along the lines of the Nosler ballistic tip, Hornady SST style projectiles, tipped, fragile but more lead towards the tip.The Accutip from Remington is another and with very good ballistics but not as strong as some and tougher than the hollow points.

Oh and just because, .284 Win and 7 STW ;)
 
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